T+a dac 8 dsd

[lmitche]

7 minutes ago, sbenyo said:

My assumptions so far:

1. ISO REGEN provides hi-end isolation and re-clocking. It is probably in the levels of the hi-end products such as ultra uRendo or SoTM sMS-200 ultra. I don't think using both will give much maybe a very minor benefit.

2. ISO REGEN combined with LPS seems to be superior to JCAT intona and similar solutions (e.g. ifi , w4s, etc.). I don't see any reason to use similar products on the same usb chain

3. I am still not sure about Mutec and SU-1. I don't know what they give and if they are sufficient alone or need isolation.

4. SoTM and uRendu are acting as bridge/server so they have the benefit of not needing extra computer. They may be a full solution on their own. The current draw back is they are Linux based which is currently not supported for T+A.

 

I think the decision is either if I want a "closed" server solution or if I want to build my own bridge/server. Building my own gives my freedom choosing Windows/Linux as well as choosing components/mods (may not be cost/effective).

Currently I did not find anything better than ISO REGEN for what it gives for "open" solution (with exception of what I don't know as mentioned in point 3).

I tend to go with ISO REGEN for now as I can't use Linux solution yet. Once it's out I may reconsider and can always add or change.

Sbenyo,

 

The ISO Regen is being used with both direct USB DAC connections to music servers, as well as music renderers like the microRendu, ultraRendu(in the future) and the SOTM SMS-200.  In each case an ISO Regen has been said to enhance the sound quality of the connection to the USB DAC.  It certainly greatly enhances the sound quality of my directly connected server here.

[sbenyo]

From what I understand it will probably improve sound quality for uRendo and SOTM but may not be significant or even minor for the ultra versions which already include the same hi-end capabilities.

I can't test it myself but this is what I could understand from people's experiences. If it does have significant improvement even with hi-end server that's even better and makes it easier to decide to go for it.

 

 

[rickca]

19 minutes ago, sbenyo said:

From what I understand it will probably improve sound quality for uRendo and SOTM but may not be significant or even minor for the ultra versions which already include the same hi-end capabilities.

I can't test it myself but this is what I could understand from people's experiences. If it does have significant improvement even with hi-end server that's even better and makes it easier to decide to go for it.

 

 

Tests of ISO REGEN with SOtM ultra products have already been done.  Have a look at https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/?do=findComment&comment=692858

 

[sbenyo]

Great comparison!

It does prove what I was already concluded:

1. ISO REGEN is top notch nicely competes with tX-USBultra

2. Adding them together is not as significant as having either of them.

 

I think this just give additional proof that ISO REGEN by itsef is delivering to the highest expectations.

 

[sbenyo]

After additional reading/investigation it is not clear what is needed for a perfect usb chain/streaming.

 

It is clear that hi-end products have significant improvements on their own but which ones should be combined to get the most cost/effective soution?
It is not clear why I need both sMS-200 and tX-USBultra and ISO REGEN or SU-1/Mutec at the same time and how much combining them really increase quality or cost/effective enough. There seem to be too many components and no clear path. Actually the only clear path I current see is to buy them all and convince yourself that sound-quality wise it's worth the money.

 

It is also very interesting that I can buy DAC costing between $500-$4000 but at the end I need $2000-3000 extra dollars to get the best out of it. This is multiple the amount invested in the DAC iteself!

 

The puts the question if this is the right path or is it not better just to invest in a $7000+ DAC and forget all about it.

Interesting questions. Too may different options.

 

[guiltyboxswapper]

Has anyone actually compared the ISO Regen or similar (Intona with seperate power in my case) to a dedicated PCIE audio grade USB card here?  

 

Would be wonderful if the ISO Regen could 'match' that of a dedicated card, but I find it difficult to believe given the source it has to work with is ofcourse a sub-standard PC.    Ultimately there is a degree of garbage-in-garbage-out in play here - only so much you can 'rescue' and therefore regenerate so to speak. 

 

From an engineering perspective, surely you'd just tackle the issue at the source, and provide a high quality USB feed from a proper USB PCIE card built for audio applications to begin with?  

 

ISO Regen etc ofcourse do help, but it just seems like a band-aid, and as mentioned I've found a dedicated PCIE card walks all over regenerators supplied with seperate power feeds, but I understand its damn right convenient compared to messing around with a PC!  Again happy to see evidence to the contray.

 

As for better USB feeds, chances are unless the new DAC has a streamer built in, you may find yourself in the same position even if you spend more on a DAC.  At this kind of level, even the quality of the USB feed makes a difference.   PCs by default ofcourse don't put much thought into USB quality.

 

The other question you need to ask yourself is whether the rest of your system justifies even improving the USB feed for the DAC.  Is the room treated?  Do you do any basic room mode corrections?  These changes alone can make significant differences.  You could ofcourse just enjoy it as it is for now, and make changes later.... 

 

As you've aluded to already, it does a good job with just standard PC USB as is.

[rickca]

7 minutes ago, sbenyo said:

It is also very interesting that I can buy DAC costing between $500-$4000 but at the end I need $2000-3000 extra dollars to get the best out of it. This is multiple the amount invested in the DAC iteself!

You don't need to spend that much to significantly improve your USB chain and sound quality unless you get kind of obsessive about it.  I think you arrived at the right conclusion in your previous post.

 

If you look at the ISO REGEN listening impressions thread, you will discover that even people with very expensive DACs are impressed with it.

[guiltyboxswapper]

Just now, rickca said:

You don't need to spend that much to significantly improve your USB chain and sound quality unless you get kind of obsessive about it.  I think you arrived at the right conclusion in your previous post.

 

If you look at the ISO REGEN listening impressions thread, you will discover that even people with very expensive DACs are impressed with it.

 

I'm being a little lazy here - forgive me - does anyone compare it to say a JCAT Femto USB card or similar w/external power?  Be interested to see comparisons.

[guiltyboxswapper]

Oh yes as rickca rightly points out, good USB feed doesnt need to go past $700, infact can be lower depending on what you pick.  Plus its re-usable for future devices.  Can't stress enough though, right now it might not be the best place to spend your $$$$s for improvement, depending on the rest of the chain + setup.

[rickca]

We should let this thread focus on the DAC8 DSD.  I am not going to post anything further regarding USB devices here.

[guiltyboxswapper]

Just now, rickca said:

We should let this thread focus on the DAC8 DSD.  I am not going to post anything further regarding USB devices here.

 

Usually I'd agree, but this DAC is sensitive to USB feeds and can really show the differences.  Its worth mentioning at least.

[sbenyo]

We can keep it dedicated to DAC8. I am looking for the best cost/effectve option to feed it with.

I also heard it can improve a lot with quality feed.

 

[sbenyo]

The PCIE is interesting option for a dedicated desktop PC solution.

I still wonder if I need a few options together or if just using one of them is good enough. It should be noted that each option works best with it's own LPS which also adds footprint and costs.
 

I am NOT looking for taste or for subtle SQ improvement as costs for each component are high.
I want to see if there is any single part in agreement with significant change to SQ for DAC8. Currently I see agreement on ISO REGEN or StOM sMS Ultra.

I am trying to figure out if ISO REGEN on it's own is good enough for significant improvment and anything on top may only be small. In any case even if I settle on single solution it will be just starting from ~$700 (with LPS included). Any additional component on top may cost the same or even more. It can get really expensive compared to the $2200 dollar I spent on the DAC8.

 

[rickca]

On 7/7/2017 at 9:51 AM, sbenyo said:

I first want to try HQPlayer trail but after installing it says it expired.

  

On 7/7/2017 at 4:10 PM, sbenyo said:

I am not familiar with Roon.

I really think you need to figure out what software you want to use first and whether DSD512 is important to you.  If you decide against using HQPlayer/NAA or Roon, the case for a network renderer like microRendu or sMS-200ultra becomes somewhat less compelling and this will simplify your decision.

 

Note that to play DSD512 with a Linux network renderer, the T+A DAC8 DSD is going to need a firmware update which isn't even available yet.  

 

Until you make these kind of decisions, the number of potential solutions is kind of overwhelming ... and I could add several more to the list, like the ICRON Ranger 2301GE-LAN.

 

The software you choose will influence your system architecture, and then you can make an appropriate choice of add-on device.

[volpone]

On 28/06/2017 at 7:42 AM, bibo01 said:

It seems that we are finally getting there!

Just published on github:

Amanero: hello, there is online firmware_2000 it supports DSD512, just compiled and verified only with an oscilloscope. May you check if it's ok on DSD512/DSD256? For now it's Little Endian but if ok it can be changed in BE.

Tomorrow i'll test all the options and on a DAC, so don't worry if it's not working. But from the signals i have on the oscilloscope it seems running at DSD512 (player Daphile Native mode )

Hi @bibo01,

Any direct feedback from AMANERO about new FW (v2001) against DAC8 DSD ?

According to some users comments on github still some issues ...

Also no news from T+A support about FW  test and validation.

Thank's again if you succeed in getting fresh news ...

[louisxiawei]

@bibo01

 

Sorry to bring this again, but any news of DAC8 DSD firmware update for playing DSD512 on linux? Thanks in advance.

 

 

[sbenyo]

I asked the support a few days ago and this is the answer:

 

 

"up to now an update to support DSD512 on Linux is not available and actually we don’t know, if a stable playback with DSD512 would be possible on Linux.'

 

I am not sure if this is good or not. Maybe someone else should check again

[volpone]

18 minutes ago, sbenyo said:

I asked the support a few days ago and this is the answer:

"up to now an update to support DSD512 on Linux is not available and actually we don’t know, if a stable playback with DSD512 would be possible on Linux.'

I am not sure if this is good or not. Maybe someone else should check again

Not very good !

AMANERO seems working to fix native DSD512 support FW issues on LINUX, still some problems according  https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12. However i hope AMANERO will persevere and succeed.

 

 

[louisxiawei]

53 minutes ago, volpone said:

Not very good !

AMANERO seems working to fix native DSD512 support FW issues on LINUX, still some problems according  https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12. However i hope AMANERO will persevere and succeed.

 

 

Guess there will be a bit long wait. I might consider a windows NAA as an alternative for DAC8 DSD. Like the Logic Supply CL100 recommended on the HQplayer website, but don't know if there is a lite version of windows 10 OS for it. 

[sbenyo]

Not cheap. With minimal customization it can get as high as $500,

 

[Solstice380]

I have a Lampi with the Amanero USB and so I needed a Win NAA for the ASIO driver.  I put a 12V capable i3 NUC (D34010) into a fanless Silverstone PTI-4 case.  ~US$300 total with 4GB RAM and 128GB m2 SSD.  Works well and sounds good here.

[Ben-M]

Damn, that's not good news at all. 

I stepped away for a few months and last time I was here was when a DAC 8 DSD was sent to Amanero for testing and validation of DSD512. Things looked promising then, but now it's seeming like it'll be a while at best... I don't doubt too much that the Amanero crew will work out the bugs and get native DSD512 running stable on Linux, but that response from T+A really makes me wonder if they'd commit much effort to accepting and validating Amanero's solution and then coordinating whatever needed efforts for the firmware update...

 

I can still do Windows NAA as well, but I've been pretty eager to buy and try a mRendu. If this issue doesn't get sorted I think I'll hold onto my cash for now or invest elsewhere :-/

[volpone]

7 hours ago, Ben-M said:

Damn, that's not good news at all. 

....

I can still do Windows NAA as well, but I've been pretty eager to buy and try a mRendu. If this issue doesn't get sorted I think I'll hold onto my cash for now or invest elsewhere :-/

 

I’m really disappointed too ! 

As an temporary alternative i’m looking for a good ASIO NAA / ROONBRIDGE networked endpoint on par with Linux dedicated ALSA endpoint SQ (mainly USB EMI/RFI isolation). Any WIN device comparable to: Micro/Ultra Rendu, ALLO USBridge, SoTM SMS-200 ultra … from SQ point of view ?

[louisxiawei]

32 minutes ago, volpone said:

 

I’m really disappointed too ! 

As an temporary alternative i’m looking for a good ASIO NAA / ROONBRIDGE networked endpoint on par with Linux dedicated ALSA endpoint SQ (mainly USB EMI/RFI isolation). Any WIN device comparable to: Micro/Ultra Rendu, ALLO USBridge, SoTM SMS-200 ultra … from SQ point of view ?

I'm thinking maybe a windows based NAA like NUC + ISO regen will be something better than Microrendu and SoTM SMS-200.

 

I remember John mentioned ISO regen has better SI than microrendu, so with the help of NAA, you still have the Ethernet isolation while connecting a ISO REGEN after the NAA will still have the regen function for better signal SI. But the OS in the windows NAA must be stable and lite enough like Sonicorbiter and support Roon remote and HQplayer.

 

I'm really eyeing on Signature Rendu SE, but unfortunately won't help either for DAC8's DSD512.

 

 

[guiltyboxswapper]

If you can face running a quiet PC, I would seriously consider the JCAT Femto card with an external DC supply of sorts.  Better than any regen/reclocking device by far (i've tried quite a few, even with isolated power from PC).  It comes with a low profile bracket if that helps.

 

Recently had a Chord DAVE at my home, and both it and the T+A benefitted from the JCAT USB feed.  BTW, the T+A is staying put after that comparison... huge surprise but turns out EuroDriver was right on the money after all.