T+a dac 8 dsd

[OE333]

18 hours ago, Quadman said:

Please, are you running win 10 home on this and what tweaks have you done to make this work.  Also what PSU do you use to power it, I would think a good LT3045 based 3A psu would be perfect for this.

 

... deleted - hit the save button before ready - sorry

[OE333]

18 hours ago, Quadman said:

Please, are you running win 10 home on this and what tweaks have you done to make this work.  Also what PSU do you use to power it, I would think a good LT3045 based 3A psu would be perfect for this.

Yes, this little board runs Win10. Equipped with 32G eMMC and 4G RAM. Processor is a z8350 Atom Quadcore @ max. 4x1920 MHz.

I have not experimented with pwr supplies yet, have done functional testing only. For these tests I used a standard USB SMPS (2.5A).

 

[Miska]

10 hours ago, OE333 said:

Furthermore: At the time of development (2014) native DSD on Linux was nowhere in sight and Windows+ASIO was the only way to do it....

 

Well, native DSD support was added to Linux kernel on April 2013...  First supported DACs were Playback Designs ones.

 

[OE333]

13 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Well, native DSD support was added to Linux kernel on April 2013...  First supported DACs were Playback Designs ones.

 

 

Miska,

It was not my intention to claim that T+A buit the first DSD capable DACs.

Regarding native DSD support on Linux: To my best knowledge DSD support started at around kernel version  3.17 / 3.18 and ALSA 1.0.28. This must have been at around end of 2014 and it was experimental work at that time. I don't know when native DSD made it into the mainline kernel, but at the time when we made our design decisions (early 2014), Linux support was as far as I remember not a feature found on DACs available at that time.

But maybe all this leads a bit off topic....

 

[OE333]

My mentioning of the small "LattePanda" (LP) Single Board Computer (SBC) working as ethernet/USB bridge made some members of this forum ask for more details.

 

So, here are my experiences so far with a LattePanda used as roonbridge to connect my T+A DAC8DSD to roonserver over a Ethernet connection:

0.) Buying a LattePanda       https://www.lattepanda.com/
The LP is available in an older version with a z8300 processor and a newer version with z8350.

The z8350 is faster and has a different BIOS with some additional and useful features (see below for details).

So make sure you get the z8350 version when ordering.

The LP is available with Windows 10 home pre-installed but not activated, with an activated Win10 Home and in a version with bigger memory  (64G eMMC and 8G RAM) with Windows 10 Pro installed. Price range is from around 100$ to 250$.
I would not recommend the Windows 10 Home version. The Home version is lacking some features really useful for the intended purpose. If Win10 Home is pre-installed on your LP,  consider upgrading to Win10 Pro (or Enterprise).

 

1.) First run:
The LP comes with Windows 10 Home (1709) pre-installed. So it was just a question of a couple of minutes to install the T+A driver package and roonbridge. I did some quick tests with different formats up to PCM384/32 and DSD512. Everything looked (or better: sounded) good and so I went on to set up everything nicely and neat.

 

2.) Updating and activating Windows
My first tests I did with the pre-installed but unactivated Win10. There are also LP versions available with an activated Win10 Home or Win10 Pro. In my case I decided to upgrade the pre-installed Win10 Home version to a Win10 Enterprise version. This version and the Win10 EDC (Education) version offer a few additional features I found useful for this project.
The update process to Win10 1803 took quite a while - with installation of all Windows updates a couple of hours.

 

3.) First start with Win10 Enterprise 1803
After the Windows upgrade roonbridge and the T+A drivers were still installed and started without any error messages but playback (especially DSD512) did not work flawlessly as before. I experienced frequent drop-outs.
Re-installarion  of roonbridge and T+A driver did not improve the situation.

I then increased the process priority level for the RAAT server process in the Windows Taskmanager to "High" and even to "Realtime". This made things a bit better but still some drop-outs could be observed.
Obviously the latest Win10 version is "slower" than last years version.

I don't know why this is (Meltdown microcode patches perhaps ?) but with Win10 1803 streaming at high rates was no fun at all.

 

4.) How to get things working again
I installed Open_Hardware_Monitor to chek core temperatures and throttling of the processor cores. The drop-outs occurred always when the processor throttled down below 1440 MHz. The temperature was not to high (around 60°C). So selecting a more performant power plan (Windows Control Panel -> Power Option) should be possible and possibly solve the problem.
The problem is that Windows on LP only supports one power plan "Balanced".
To get higher performance options, edit the registry (WIN+R, regedit). Navigate to   Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Power
Set the key value of CsEnabled to 0.

Reboot the LP and you should find an additional power plan "HighPerformance". After choosing this power plan throttling was far less agressive and the cores only very seldom throttle to below 1440 MHz now. Most times they work at 1920MHz. This really boosts the performance and DSD512 played without any drop-outs.

I added a small heat sink to the processor (see picture below) and the core temperature stays always below 60°C with the LP lying on my desk (caseless, fanless, with only convection cooling).

 

5.) Operation without monitor, keyboard, mouse
In my system I use the LP without monitor, keyboard and mouse. To do this, enable Windows AutoLogIn: press [Win - R], enter the command "netplwiz", then select the user who shall be logged in automatically, untick the box "Users must enter a user name and password to use this computer", then save settings.

 

6.) BIOS settings
Power ON LP and hit the "DEL" key before the LattePanda screen appears - this will enter the BIOS settings menu

 

Power up when plugged in
You find this setting under "Boot". "AC-Status AC/Battery IN" set it to "Power ON".
Note: this setting is not available in the BIOS of the older z8300 version of LP

 

Power/Performance
Under "Advanced" set Power&Performance setting to "Performance"

 

USB spread spectrum
Under "Chipset", "Miscellaneous Configuration" set "USB Clock Spread Spectrum" to "Disabled"
- I don't know if it makes a difference but I have turned it off hoping that this might improve the jitter performance.

I left all the settings at their default values.

6.) Other useful things
UFW - WINDOWS unified write filter
If you plan to switch OFF the device by just disconnecting it from the power this is normally not a good idea with Windows based computers.
The MS "Unified Write Filter" (available only in Enterprise and EDC editions of Win10) sets the eMMC to read only. This might be a way to make hard power switching possible without shutting down windows before. For details see:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/customize/enterprise/unified-write-filter

 

Open Hardware Monitor

https://openhardwaremonitor.org/

 

7.) Windows Updates
The Windows updater is working in the background and might (like other programs) interfere with the streaming (see below).
In my case I decided to disable all automatic Windows updates.
If you plan to do so, please first disconnect LP from the internet by setting up appropriate firewall rules.
Then, I changed the Setting of the Group Policy Editor (see solution no. 2 from here:
https://www.easeus.com/todo-backup-resource/how-to-stop-windows-10-from-automatically-update.html)
Note: This is not possible with Win10 Home !

8.) Running other programs on LP when streaming
I found that when streaming at high sample rates (like DSD512) it is not a good idea to use the LP for any other tasks. Especially at startup of other programs streaming is likely to be disturbed - I observed short distortion bursts and drop-outs.
When doing streaming only everything is ok for me and I get no such problems.

 

Conclusion
I found the LattePanda performing well as an ethernet/USB bridge for streaming to my DAC8DSD. I think it will also work well with other DACs depending on a Windows source.

In all my testing upsampling to DSD512 was done by roonserver.

DSD512 (and all other DSD rates) as well as PCM up to 384/32 worked here in my system without problems.
This is valid at least for the current Win10 version (1803). My experience shows that Windows has an impact on this and I hope that coming Windows versions will work in the same way.

To avaoid any Windows related problems I have decided for my LP to isolate my LP from the internet and disable automatic updates to keep my system stable and avoid adverse effects of any updates - but everybody needs to decide this for himself.

 

 

Have fun ...

 

 

 

 

[twluke]

On 9/16/2018 at 4:43 PM, guiltyboxswapper said:

I should add that I've placed small BGA heatsinks on my CPLD and MCU inside the T+A, which may explain the differing results. 

 

I previously applied heatsinks to an Amanero board with 2004be connected to a Cyan DSD, inspired by your previous comment as shown in the picture below. However, afraid to say that I couldn't get positive results in my case. Maybe dependent on the selection of heatsink and grease. Well, I might try the same approach with DAC 8 DSD, if the sound with the current 2005be is going to be less tolerable. But, for now, it's okay.

 

Regards,

[juanitox]

very nice setup but you will not reach the entire value of your T+A dac like that , Roon is good for GUI but so so for PCM to DSD512.

1 ;  run an external PC for roon core  and HQplayer processing PCM to DSD512 

2  install HQplayer on the LP  and run it as NAA   ( connected to the main PC network)

3 you can use Roon remote from the LP or iphone ipad..

4 use a LPS on the LP

 

result you will have a much better sound and your LP will run cooler

 

 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, OE333 said:

Regarding native DSD support on Linux: To my best knowledge DSD support started at around kernel version  3.17 / 3.18 and ALSA 1.0.28. This must have been at around end of 2014 and it was experimental work at that time. I don't know when native DSD made it into the mainline kernel, but at the time when we made our design decisions (early 2014), Linux support was as far as I remember not a feature found on DACs available at that time.

But maybe all this leads a bit off topic....

 

I know when it started because I was involved in that process... And I checked the git log before posting since I cannot remember such dates out of my head...  Regarding audio things, I'm usually ahead of what is in mainline releases, because I follow the development quite closely. And when necessary I make changes to kernel/ALSA and submit those upstream too.

 

Before specific DSD support it was fairly straightforward to use U8 PCM format at 8th of the DSD rate, since it didn't overlap with PCM support of any existing hardware.

 

[OE333]

1 hour ago, juanitox said:

very nice setup but you will not reach the entire value of your T+A dac like that , Roon is good for GUI but so so for PCM to DSD512.

1 ;  run an external PC for roon core  and HQplayer processing PCM to DSD512 

2  install HQplayer on the LP  and run it as NAA   ( connected to the main PC network)

3 you can use Roon remote from the LP or iphone ipad..

4 use a LPS on the LP

 

result you will have a much better sound and your LP will run cooler

 

 

 

... completely agreed.

 

The setup I described is the one I use for testing the stability of the streaming. It is very easy to set up and it helps me to find out if everything works (technically).

It was not meant in any way as a recommendation for a real listening system.

 

It should only point out a possible way to get high sample rate streaming using a windows based SBC as ethernet/USB bridge. 

 

I think it should work well with HQ player, too.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, OE333 said:

My mentioning of the small "LattePanda" (LP) Single Board Computer (SBC) working as ethernet/USB bridge made some members of this forum ask for more details.

 

 

I've used LogicSupply's CL100 (you'll want to replace the standard wall-wart PSU though) as a Windows based NAA for the DAC8 DSD. However, IMO, Windows is quite hefty piece of software to run just an audio endpoint...

 

[OE333]

11 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

 

I've used LogicSupply's CL100 (you'll want to replace the standard wall-wart PSU though) as a Windows based NAA for the DAC8 DSD. However, IMO, Windows is quite hefty piece of software to run just an audio endpoint...

 

 

I argree, Windows is indeed a hefty piece of software for this task - but the LattePanda offers a quite neat (and affordable) way to do the streaming with all DACs that rely on Windows/ASIO for streaming.

 

I am not saying that this is the best way to do it - I was only trying to give a hint to those who want to try it with a Windows based bridge.

 

... and according to my experience it works quite well.

 

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, OE333 said:

I am not saying that this is the best way to do it - I was only trying to give a hint to those who want to try it with a Windows based bridge.

 

... and according to my experience it works quite well.

 

Yeah, it works quite well, but not something I personally like to use. Windows 10 does a lot of interfering crap on it's own, like automatic updates in background, including automatic reboots, etc. My biggest hate is "ModulesInstallerWorker" that it launches in background and eats lot of CPU and I/O bandwidth.

 

Now I rather keep my DAC8 DSD connected straight to DAC UP port of my i7-6950X server... Works just as well. And with 10 cores, Windows interferes a little bit less...

 

[OE333]

15 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yeah, it works quite well, but not something I personally like to use. Windows 10 does a lot of interfering crap on it's own, like automatic updates in background, including automatic reboots, etc. My biggest hate is "ModulesInstallerWorker" that it launches in background and eats lot of CPU and I/O bandwidth.

 

Now I rather keep my DAC8 DSD connected straight to DAC UP port of my i7-6950X server... Works just as well. And with 10 cores, Windows interferes a little bit less...

 

 

I agree - direct USB connection to the server will probably always be the best solution.

But you see,  I am married now since 27 years and this might rapidly change if I set up my server PC in our living room right next to our (very nice and decent) HiFi system.  So I think I will continue streaming over ethernet...

 

Regarding Win updates see item 7.) in my post above.

 

[wolft]

33 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yeah, it works quite well, but not something I personally like to use. Windows 10 does a lot of interfering crap on it's own, like automatic updates in background, including automatic reboots, etc. My biggest hate is "ModulesInstallerWorker" that it launches in background and eats lot of CPU and I/O bandwidth. 

 

Now I rather keep my DAC8 DSD connected straight to DAC UP port of my i7-6950X server... Works just as well. And with 10 cores, Windows interferes a little bit less...

 

 I think you must learn more about Windows 10 ?

BR

Wolft

 

[Miska]

13 minutes ago, wolft said:

 I think you must learn more about Windows 10 ?

 

 

No, I don't want to. Spending 30 years developing software for Windows is enough suffering.

 

Quote

Regarding Win updates see item 7.) in my post above.

 

That still doesn't stop rest of the automated background stuff. Some of the stuff can be tamed by hammering the system enough, but is still has lot of cruft left. While on Linux I can run the OS and audio streaming on 64 MB RAM on 400 MHz single-core ARM9...

[Miska]

Some other things you'd want to disable on Win10, but are a bit problematic:

 

1) Disable CompatTelScanner aka Compatibility Telemetry Scanner (another huge resource hog), this one is scanning everything on the machine frequently, and is sort of Microsoft spyware to report back to Microsoft what kind of things are installed on the computer

2) Disable other privacy and resource interfering telemetry things and call-home, this requires extensive block lists on the firewall

 

Note that many of these are silently re-enabled or otherwise messed with when you install any updates for Win10. Disabling some of these may also prevent you from getting updates in future.

 

Not a recommendation, but one tool to deal with some of these issues I've used Spybot AntiBeacon.

[asdf1000]

11 hours ago, Miska said:

 

I know when it started because I was involved in that process... And I checked the git log before posting since I cannot remember such dates out of my head...  Regarding audio things, I'm usually ahead of what is in mainline releases, because I follow the development quite closely. And when necessary I make changes to kernel/ALSA and submit those upstream too.

 

Before specific DSD support it was fairly straightforward to use U8 PCM format at 8th of the DSD rate, since it didn't overlap with PCM support of any existing hardware.

 

 

Jussi, has anyone from Amanero ever contacted you to fix this Linux native DSD512 support issue?

 

I have a feeling you would fix it...

 

Somebody from Amanero please pay the man a small fee for his time ! ?

 

 

[bibo01]

18 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Jussi, has anyone from Amanero ever contacted you to fix this Linux native DSD512 support issue?

 

I have a feeling you would fix it...

 

Somebody from Amanero please pay the man a small fee for his time ! ?

 

 

Having followed the matter with Domenico of Amanero, I can tell you that there are hardware restrictions that are not easy to overcome.

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, bibo01 said:

Having followed the matter with Domenico of Amanero, I can tell you that there are hardware restrictions that are not easy to overcome.

 

Noted, understood.

 

[blue2]

5 hours ago, bibo01 said:

Having followed the matter with Domenico of Amanero, I can tell you that there are hardware restrictions that are not easy to overcome.

What do you mean exactly? Are you referring to the processing capability of the Amanero board, as Linux can be run on a variety of hardware?

TIA

[Miska]

6 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Jussi, has anyone from Amanero ever contacted you to fix this Linux native DSD512 support issue?

 

I did native Linux support for it quite a while ago and it has been in mainline kernels for a while too. But the problem is Amanero's firmware which I cannot do anything about...

 

Another problem is that certain lazy people insisted that it must work the same way as XMOS implementation and that probably adds quite a bit to the firmware challenges trying to make enough out of the limited resources there... (they should have fixed MPD instead of complaining that firmware must be fixed for MPD - fixing user space software could have been probably done in hours, now it's been months)

[guiltyboxswapper]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

I did native Linux support for it quite a while ago and it has been in mainline kernels for a while too. But the problem is Amanero's firmware which I cannot do anything about...

 

Another problem is that certain lazy people insisted that it must work the same way as XMOS implementation and that probably adds quite a bit to the firmware challenges trying to make enough out of the limited resources there... (they should have fixed MPD instead of complaining that firmware must be fixed for MPD - fixing user space software could have been probably done in hours, now it's been months)

 

Hmmm that almost appears anti-competitive.  The newer XMOS ASICs clearly have much more headroom than the Amanero designs...

[OE333]

1 hour ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

 

Hmmm that almost appears anti-competitive.  The newer XMOS ASICs clearly have much more headroom than the Amanero designs...

 

Complexity in hardware very often brings other unwanted side effects (e.g. jitter). In many respects the Amanero is a very fine solution. With a Windows source it performs just perfect.

 

I keep my fingers crossed that this now can also be achieved for Linux....

[shadowlight]

9 hours ago, bibo01 said:

Having followed the matter with Domenico of Amanero, I can tell you that there are hardware restrictions that are not easy to overcome.

Would it be possible to ask Domenico to generate two firmware.  One which works with MPD and one which does not.  I am all for a stable firmware by losing functionality to support MPD.  Can you say I am selfish ?

[Miska]

3 hours ago, shadowlight said:

Would it be possible to ask Domenico to generate two firmware.  One which works with MPD and one which does not.  I am all for a stable firmware by losing functionality to support MPD.  Can you say I am selfish ?

 

For a little while, such existed. There were big- and little-endian versions of the firmware. Driver still detects and supports both. The newest firmwares are big-endian only.