T+a dac 8 dsd

[wolft]

Hello, after two years development still no native DSD Linux support and still no DSD512. Still no update tool for firmware and drivers. The T+A DAC 8 DSD doesn't run in Audirvana f. Windows in Asio mode. No own Asio Support for MacOS. No contemporary Bugfixing for Windows 10.

All this for an DAC which costs in Europe 3200 €.

Wolft

 

 

[guiltyboxswapper]

5 minutes ago, wolft said:

Hello, after two years development still no native DSD Linux support and still no DSD512. Still no update tool for firmware and drivers. The T+A DAC 8 DSD doesn't run in Audirvana f. Windows in Asio mode. No own Asio Support for MacOS. No contemporary Bugfixing for Windows 10.

All this for an DAC which costs in Europe 3200 €.

Wolft

 

 

 

Please list DACs that have the following support for €3200 or less, and support DSD 512, and can match that of the T+A's discrete DSD implementation?  I believe the Exasounds do, but beyond that... and I've tried a few but to no avail.

 

Do recall this product was released in 2016, when frankly there weren't many discrete DSD based DACs with DSD 512 input full stop, nevermind native DSD 512 in Linux support.

 

It's somewhat remarkable that T+A and Amanero have gone to these lengths.  Many manufacturers would "force" you to buy their latest and greatest for updates like these.

[juanitox]

Quote

Do recall this product was released in 2016, when frankly there weren't many discrete DSD based DACs with DSD 512 input full stop, nevermind native DSD 512 in Linux support.

 

2 years already ! first time i have kept a Dac so long  ? , ( after short passage in my house of  , Metrum, audionote,  Lessloss, attraction dac, berkeley,  , EC design,  Total Dac,  , Weiss , etc...)

works fantastic with  a dedicated PC  for Hqplayer and an intona usb isolator.

the cherriy on the cake will be to try a micro rendu playing DSD 512 with the Dac8 

hope i will see it one day ..

[guiltyboxswapper]

Yep kept it for 2yrs+ and likely to stay longer at this rate.

 

Currently I have 2005be deployed and so far not a problem with native DSD 512.  

 

Thank you for mentioning this @OE333, and thanks for @louisxiawei and @twluke for following this through.

 

Also thanks to Dom at Amanero for persistence.  Like I said earlier, most commercial entities wouldn't have gone this far, they'd usually release this in a new product iteration.

[twluke]

12 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

Yep kept it for 2yrs+ and likely to stay longer at this rate.

 

Currently I have 2005be deployed and so far not a problem with native DSD 512.  

 

Thank you for mentioning this @OE333, and thanks for @louisxiawei and @twluke for following this through.

 

Also thanks to Dom at Amanero for persistence.  Like I said earlier, most commercial entities wouldn't have gone this far, they'd usually release this in a new product iteration.

 

Hi, thank you for this wonderful news.

 

I also updated the FW to 2005be. This appeared perfect for DSD512 via HQP/Roon on linux (Ubuntu 18.04) for the first 90 minutes. Unfortunately this happy hour didn't last so long, hampered by a kind of white noise, though very faint, emerging from nowhere and fading away a few minutes after. I think this 2005be is quite superior to 2004be and worthy of trying but am afraid to say that it should be still treated as a beta version.

 

Regards,

 

[OE333]

1 hour ago, twluke said:

 

I think this 2005be is quite superior to 2004be and worthy of trying but am afraid to say that it should be still treated as a beta version

 

 

Absolutely correct. it definately is a beta version. It has to undergo thorough testing with positive results before an official release will be made available. My first impression is positive.

I have listened for about 2 hours now without having issues but long term testing will be done next week.

 

An other reason why this version will not be released as it is is that is not Windows compatible - so still a bit work remains to be done.

 

 

[OE333]

3 hours ago, wolft said:

Hello, after two years development still no native DSD Linux support and still no DSD512. Still no update tool for firmware and drivers. The T+A DAC 8 DSD doesn't run in Audirvana f. Windows in Asio mode. No own Asio Support for MacOS. No contemporary Bugfixing for Windows 10. 

All this for an DAC which costs in Europe 3200 €.

Wolft

 

 

 

1.) Linux compatibility was never claimed- especially not for native/DSD512. Who needs a DAC for Linux DSD512 should maybe consider an other product or simply wait until Linux compatibility is officially declared.

Currently T+A is working to make this DAC Linux compatible. Linux kernel patches have already been applied.

 

2.) Audirvana f. Windows is currently the only player that does not work with DAC8DSD in Asio mode. All other players just work fine (J-River, foobar etc.). Problem might well be on the Audirvana side - this is currently under examination.

 

 

[OE333]

I guess that in most cases the demand for Linux compatibility is that a Linux based NAA or Network/USB converter or a roonbridge shall be used. These tasks could also well be done with a Windows based computer and the official standard T+A Windows ASIO driver which supports everything up to PCM384/32 and native DSD up to DSD512 .

Of course I understand that not everybody wants to install a full blown Windows PC side by side with his DAC. In the past I personally have used an Intel NUC running roonbridge (HQ player NAA would also be possible) - but even a NUC might be too much and of course it is not fanless...

 

Recently I tried a LattePanda SBC (https://www.lattepanda.com/) for around $100 (without MS Windows 10 activation). This solution (after a bit tweaking) worked well with the T+A DAC8DSD and might be an alternative to a Linux based SBC.

 

Of course T+A will continue the efforts to achieve full Linux compatibility - including DSD512 native but for the time being and for those who have no objections using a Windows based PC this could be a quite good solution not needing any fiddling with Linux beta versions.

 

If anybody is interested in this solution, please let me know - I could give some hints then.

 

 

-> attached: 2 pictures of my LattePanda streaming DSD512 from my roonserver to DAC8DSD.

 

Please note: This DAC8DSD has standard firmware installed (not one of the beta versions) - so this can be done with every DAC8DSD from Ser.No 1 onwards --- without any changes or FW updates !

 

[Quadman]

18 minutes ago, OE333 said:

if anybody is interested in this solution, please let me know - I could give some hints then,

 

I would be interested in learning more about this, as I have a powerful win 10 PC in the listening area.  What PC holds your roon server software.  It appears you use Roon to upsample to 512, I use HQP mostly.

[OE333]

What you see on the pictures is my test installation. Roonserver is running on a core i5 based PC with Ubuntu 1804. The DSD conversion is done by roonserver with its integrated DSP sample rate conversion. Music is then streamed to the LattePanda SBC over ethernet and then it goes via USB into the DAC8DSD.

HQ player is currently not installed but I definately will do some testing with HQ player in the near future.

 

At home I use a very similar setup. I would like to upgrade my system with HQ player replacing the roon DSD conversion but first I think I need a more powerful Server PC probably with a CUDA graphics card as co-processor....

 

[OE333]

... my offer to give some hints referred to the LattePanda setup and installation.

[guiltyboxswapper]

4 hours ago, twluke said:

 

Hi, thank you for this wonderful news.

 

I also updated the FW to 2005be. This appeared perfect for DSD512 via HQP/Roon on linux (Ubuntu 18.04) for the first 90 minutes. Unfortunately this happy hour didn't last so long, hampered by a kind of white noise, though very faint, emerging from nowhere and fading away a few minutes after. I think this 2005be is quite superior to 2004be and worthy of trying but am afraid to say that it should be still treated as a beta version.

 

Regards,

 

 

I'm finding it very stable, though if I do a lot of track skips via HQPlayer (+ Roon in the chain) 1 in 20 tracks will start with a "chirp" again.  Once playing in a gapless fashion there are no issues to report.  Can very much live with this beta as a result.

 

I suspect if I was using HQPlayer directly the next issue wouldn't be an issue per say - HQPlayer wouldn't keep "renegotiating" with the DAC as it does when Roon is in the chain.

[sbenyo]

As much as I am disappointed with not having Linux DSD512 support, I want to encourage and appreciate T+A and Amanero for their efforts to make native support for DSD512 on Linux. It seems the effort and progress done lately achieved good results. I hope it is a good sign.

 

It's already clear that there is a reasonable upgrade path which is great, so fingers crossed for making it work without issues.

 

I think it will make this great DAC a real bargain and will open up many options for using Linux based devices for it so it will be great benefit for everyone if this works out.

 

[Quadman]

51 minutes ago, OE333 said:

my offer to give some hints referred to the LattePanda setup and installation.

Please, are you running win 10 home on this and what tweaks have you done to make this work.  Also what PSU do you use to power it, I would think a good LT3045 based 3A psu would be perfect for this.

[twluke]

4 hours ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

 

I'm finding it very stable, though if I do a lot of track skips via HQPlayer (+ Roon in the chain) 1 in 20 tracks will start with a "chirp" again.  Once playing in a gapless fashion there are no issues to report.  Can very much live with this beta as a result.

 

I suspect if I was using HQPlayer directly the next issue wouldn't be an issue per say - HQPlayer wouldn't keep "renegotiating" with the DAC as it does when Roon is in the chain.

 

Hi,  I'm now running two DACs for hours in different rooms with the same 2005be Amanero FW for comparison: one is DAC 8 DSD and the other is Cyan DSD; both USB-connected to PCs (6700K and 8700K, respectively) with the latter having I2S connection via Amanero; each playing the same DSD512 sources via HQP/Roon on Ubuntu 18.04.

 

During this comparison, I experienced the same chirpy noise, probably the phase noise as you wrote before, in Cyan DSD as in DAC 8 DSD. There was no difference in the noise occurrence between the HQP/Roon combo and HQP alone. The common finding in them is that the noise became much less frequent but, once appeared, it tends to last longer than in 2004be. Also, what is remarkable is that Cyan DSD suffers less frequently from this noise than DAC 8 DSD. This is my impression that, if the latter were equipped with a port allowing I2S connection, the results might have been different.

 

That said, the overall quality of this new firmware is quite good and I also can live with it like you.

 

Regards,

[asdf1000]

Great to see Amanero continues to work on this. I'm sure they will solve the issues.

 

At the same time, I wonder if T+A regret not using an XMOS USB interface instead?

 

[rickca]

5 hours ago, Em2016 said:

At the same time, I wonder if T+A regret not using an XMOS USB interface instead?

Good question.  Does anyone understand why a DAC manufacturer would pick Amanero vs XMOS for their design?

[guiltyboxswapper]

Just now, rickca said:

Good question.  Does anyone understand why a DAC manufacturer would pick Amanero vs XMOS for their design?

 At the time (2016) I the XMOS v1 solutions were deemed as inferior from a sound quality basis, nor did they officially support Native DSD 512 though had no problems with Native DSD 256 + DOP 256 in Linux.

 

Things have of course changed since then.

[guiltyboxswapper]

5 hours ago, twluke said:

 

Hi,  I'm now running two DACs for hours in different rooms with the same 2005be Amanero FW for comparison: one is DAC 8 DSD and the other is Cyan DSD; both USB-connected to PCs (6700K and 8700K, respectively) with the latter having I2S connection via Amanero; each playing the same DSD512 sources via HQP/Roon on Ubuntu 18.04.

 

During this comparison, I experienced the same chirpy noise, probably the phase noise as you wrote before, in Cyan DSD as in DAC 8 DSD. There was no difference in the noise occurrence between the HQP/Roon combo and HQP alone. The common finding in them is that the noise became much less frequent but, once appeared, it tends to last longer than in 2004be. Also, what is remarkable is that Cyan DSD suffers less frequently from this noise than DAC 8 DSD. This is my impression that, if the latter were equipped with a port allowing I2S connection, the results might have been different.

 

That said, the overall quality of this new firmware is quite good and I also can live with it like you.

 

Regards,

 

I should add that I've placed small BGA heatsinks on my CPLD and MCU inside the T+A, which may explain the differing results.  Also my longest single track compilations are just under 80mins.  Either way I'm happy with this progress.

 

Good to know HQP direct makes little difference.  

[OE333]

When we developed our PDP3000HV (this was actually the first DSD capable T+A DAC model with our "True1 Bit Converter") we did a lot of testing with the different DSD512 capable USB receiver solutions available. The Amanero simply outperformed the other alternatives (both sonically and measured performance). The Amanero offered best jitter performance and jitter performance is a VERY important and  crucial point in DSD conversion. Besides the true 1 bit DSD DAC itself I think that the Amanero plays a big role for the performance and sound quality was the only thing that mattered when we did this development.

 

Furthermore: At the time of development (2014) native DSD on Linux was nowhere in sight and Windows+ASIO was the only way to do it....

 

Over the past 4 years the things have evolved but I am convinced that the Amanero solution offers the best performance still.

 

Linux meanwhile supports native DSD and we try to make things work but it really is not that easy...

I can not promise that Linux will work one day without any issues but we do what we can.

 

For the time being a Windows based PC is the only safe and secure way to achieve a faultless performance with DSD512.

Who is interested in experimenting with the latest Amanero Linux firmware, plese send me a PM and will provide what is necessary to re-flash the USB receiver firmware.

Please understand that T+A will only release this officially when all glitches and issues are solved. Before this is the case T+A will not add Linux to the officially supported operating systems.

 

I have received a few requests regarding the LattePanda solution.

I will dig out my notes on this and I will share my experience on this forum sometime next week.

 

Best regards and have a nice Sunday all of you,

L

[asdf1000]

11 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

At the time (2016) I the XMOS v1 solutions were deemed as inferior from a sound quality basis, nor did they officially support Native DSD 512 though had no problems with Native DSD 256 + DOP 256 in Linux.

 

Good point. The timeline is very important to consider.

 

I should re-word.  I wonder if T+A now wished the XMOS XU216 X-Core 200 Series 16-core processor existed back during development time.

 

I don't really ask as a serious question though. Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

Edit: just saw OE333's reply at the same time as my reply.

 

 

[guiltyboxswapper]

@OE333 are there much known differences between the DAC 8 DSD and the PDP3000HV/3100HV series 1-bit implementation?

 

LittlePanda solution is an excellent idea.  Any idea of its USB noise characteristics?

 

One of the reasons I'm very keen with the Linux Native solution is that it allows me to use audio optimised SBCs, which can be very modestly priced (e.g. Allo's USBridge) too.

[OE333]

18 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

@OE333 are there much known differences between the DAC 8 DSD and the PDP3000HV/3100HV series 1-bit implementation?

 

LittlePanda solution is an excellent idea.  Any idea of its USB noise characteristics? 

 

DAC8DSD and PDP3000HV share the same basic construction. Even the circuit topology is identical. Differences are:

the analog side (i/v converters, reconstruction filters) of the PDP3000HV work on higher supply voltages (HV=HighVoltage concept of T+A).

The DAC8DSD has an integrated volume control which the PDP hasn't because it is intended to work with a P3000HV PreAmp.

 

Regarding LattePanda:

Up to now I have done mainly functional testing with the LattePanda - perhaps I can do some measurements and listening tests next week if this if of any interest.

 

What I already found: The LattePanda offers a way to disable USB spread spectrum clocking - maybe a good little feature to minimize jitter...

I will check and see if it brings any advantage.

 

L.

[guiltyboxswapper]

@OE333 measurements and listening tests would be much welcome on the LattePanda, whenever you have time.

[juanitox]

+1 it would be a very nice solution for T+A DSD8 dac owners if a Lattepanda with shrinked Windows 10  ( audiophile optimizer /fidelizer Etc..)  and a linear PS  soud as good as the Linux SBC or even microrendu..