T+a dac 8 dsd

[wisnon]

$4K in the US. Chipless SS DSD implementation?

[wisnon]

You will likely never be convinced until you try it, or find someone who will demo it being done. And to your point of flipsides, the flipside is cost. Since the filtering and processing is going to be done somewhere anyway, would you like it done inside the DAC in a $50 chipset or spend some more in a well-managed dedicated powerful modern cpu (assuming bloatware and extra processing is minimized and/or eliminated).

 

To me the biggest downside is finding a DAC that accepts the fact that heavy lifting has been done, and will simply finish the job. Some DACs aren't built for this, and will go ahead and re-manipulate, convert to PCM, etc etc..and then all that wonderful HQPlayer technology will have been lost.

Ted, which DSD Dac are you feeding it with?

[wisnon]

Thanks.

So what you are saying is that the SGM part running HQ Player is not based on COTS coming from an OEM supplier?

How about parts availability - do you have an obsolescence management plan?

 

I suspect that the SGM project will be sort of like an evolving lab that will accommodate the evolution of parts. Its not a static exercise and they will be looking to offer upgrades as SoTA components one out. Thus obsolesce will be fact for components, but SGMS will stay ahead of the curve and will likely always have better repair/replacement solutions. Only the Chassis/PSU and heat sinks will remain permanent...but those are already the costliest parts.

[wisnon]

Interesting. I'm considering a LIO as well, and it's DSD has been compared to the Vega. If the TA DAC8 is better, seriously something to consider.

 

Vega has sabre chip. Here we talk about chipless 1 bit converters like Dac8, Lampi, DSD1, etc.

[wisnon]

Thank you, that's very helpful to me. And what is the situation with DACs that accept native DSD, does Mac OSX support that output directly, or does that require special drivers? My apologies if this is going a little off-topic.

 

Asio...only Windows and in certain cases Linux too.

[wisnon]

There's one case I'm aware of where ASIO is supported on OS X, and that is with the exaSound DACs. exaSound has developed its own ASIO driver for OS X. The current-model exaSound DACs all go up to DSD256.

 

Note that it's very unlikely that the Sonore devices will ever support native DSD on the exaSound DACs, so if you're OS X-based and wanted to use one of the exa DACs with an HQP NAA, you'd have to go with a Windows-based NAA or the exaSound PlayPoint ($2K).

 

--David

 

True...my Bad.

 

Exasound has a dedicated Steinberg based driver that can do DSD256. I forgot...

[wisnon]

Initial reaction is extraordinary - compared to my current Auralic Vega.

I'm comparing upsampled Tidal content.

 

 

Yes, that is the beauty of chipless DSD!

[wisnon]

Al,

to be fair to the Lampi, it was not a A/B test as a day prior to the arrival of the T+A I sent it to Poland for service.

But the time was short enough to rely on my aural memory.

 

In a comparison between Lampi 128 and T+A 128 it would probably come to a draw. The Lampi might have the edge on density, colour and sense of flow, the T+A on dynamic, space and noisefloor (so classic tube - ss differences).

With the T+A doing 512 things change. I would say it equals out where the Lampi had the edge before but intensifies it's core strengths to an impressive degree.

And that with -2s, I'm sure the non 2s filters would take things further still.

 

Christoph

Are you putting in DSD256?

 

Pity you dont have a 7 as you could try the KR242 for a big jump in dynamics and a big bottle recti like the pre 1945 RCA Jan 5R4gy or the expensive Takatsuki 274B. Both "expand" the soundstage even more than stock. I used to have a L4 DSD only, but found that the Seven series with DHT LOVE DSD. Big jump.

[wisnon]

In the context of Linux-based renderers and DSD512, I'm pretty sure the Lampizators have exactly the same driver/firmware issues as the T+A.

 

Also, I think that, say, a Level 4 DSD-only Lampi with DSD512 and balanced outputs would be noticeably more expensive than the T+A (which isn't to say it wouldn't sound great).

 

--David

 

No they dont. Lampi has been playing DSD256 via the DSD Komputer with LINUX for months. I know a few people who have this solution. Dac8 DSD stops at DSD128 for Linux at the moment.

 

DSD512 I cant speak to.

[wisnon]

And I'd expect that if the mythical iDSD Pro ever manifests on the earthly plane, it would be DSD512 capable and have balanced outputs.

 

--David

Yes, but it may be chipped and not pure 1 bit processing.

[wisnon]

Look, I am glad you love your DAVE and I am sure it is a remarkable DAC but you need not denigrate the T&A or the methods others are using to maximize the T&A to justify your DAVE. I am a big CHORD fan, have defended my HUGO/Mojo against some heavy criticisms, have an MSB Diamond Plus in my main system and can say that the T&A is a remarkable product, particularly given it's price point. I was seriously looking at getting a DAVE for my headphones and possible replacing my MSB if it were "that good" and along came the T&A on this site and I was lucky enough to get one for a demo. It didn't take long for me to differentiate the "hype" from reality as reality was remarkable SQ.

 

Hahahahaha

 

Pri,

 

Welcome to DSD paradise. Told you the water was nice and warm and it was fine to jump in. I hope you now understand what AL and I were saying when we said the Big7 crushed the Hugo, especially on DSD.

 

Rob makes fine PCM Dacs but as a DSD hater, I would not buy his DAC and expect quality DSD playback. T+A is real DSD,so that alone makes me a fan...though to my mind, the GG takes thing to the extreme.

 

Cant wait t get my GG upgraded to 512 and then run HQP up sampling on it...though not sure if the Xeon sever can handle it, even without Roon. With the right DHT tubes and recti combo, the sky will be the limit. Already native DSD128 is mind blowing.

[wisnon]

I don't think I ever put down DSD in general or the Lampi in particular. My issues were the dogmatic defense of the Lampi over Chord just like now I similarly have issues with those dogmatically making similar claims regarding Chord, specifically Dave, in this case when compared to the T&A.

 

While I sold my Hugo, I purchased a Mojo and love it more than my Hugo. Also while I love the T&A with DSD 512 via HQP until I get a chance to listen to my MSB v T&A v Mojo set up optimally on my main system for each I reserve judgment in comparing any of these superb DACS to each other. I wouldn't be surprised if I have an "overall" favorite and wind up having preferences of one over the other two for specific situations. There are many superb speakers, DACS, amps, etc out there and similarly headphones, head amps and many ways for us to spend our money and enjoy ourselves without pigeonholing ourselves to dogma and absolutes.

You did not, nor did I say so. Just welcoming you to the PURE DSD playback club and yanking your chain a bit...all in good fun. I still own a Chord Dac and spent a day comparing Hugo to 3 others. Hugo did not impress in that crowd. Have heard the Dave at a show and the Dave delivers on PCM and is in a different league to the Hugo.It impressed me more than the MSB Select!!!!

 

Still, with a sledgehammer Server like the SGM feeding DSD512 to ANY "chipless" DSD Dac, that is a recipe for heaven.

 

OH, and I agree that there is a lot of good stuff out there now, so as long as people enjoy what they have, I have no real complaints. I sure do enjoy what I have...

[wisnon]

New question(for me):

 

How does DSD512 upsampling on HQP work with this and the new Sonore microRendu in NAA mode? Since the mRendu is Linux based it's not "officially supported" according to the DAC 8 DSD User Manual for Linux, but the manual says the DAC 8 DSD will work with properly implemented USB2 audio kernels, like ALSA (which I believe the mRendu uses).

 

But then the User Manual goes on to say that if it does work, it'd be limited to DSD128.

 

The mRendu is special though, so I'm sure this "issue" must have crossed Jesus's mind given his support for the DSD format.

 

So, can anyone tell me where we're at on that?

Until Linux is updated to support DSD256 and 512 natively on the Amanero, then we are stuck waiting. Jesus says it will come soon enough as it is being worked on. They wait for the official update and won't do a "patch".

[wisnon]

my Microrendu can just go to DSD128 using Dop , i will sell it soon and build a dedicated PC running for the asio driver needed by the T+A DSD8 ( linear power supply , dedicated USB card and regen to replace the microrendu for DD512) . hope it will worth the cost

Will that PC run BOTH Roon and HQP in a single box? What version of Windows and will it be optimized? Running all that stuff generates tremendous heat! Just ask the SGM Server guys.

[wisnon]

There is no support for Linux native DSD in the T+A USB interface, so being a Linux machine, the microRendu cannot stream DSD256 or DSD512 to this DAC.

 

There is some hope that this will change in the future as the provider of the USB interface used in the T+A is working on a native DSD driver. Assuming success, and that the T&A company will support upgrades to this new driver, in theory the microRendu should work at DSD512 with the T&A.

 

Fingers crossed!

Larry, I don't think that is enough. The uRendu must also have Linux code to support these rates natively and this won't happen until its officially a Linux release and not a proprietary patch.

 

The reason why Lukasz can do DSD256 now from his Linux based Komputer to his Amanero based Dac is that both sides have a patch to allow DSD 256 and the Komputer is this not a stock inure implementation, just as you don't use stock Windows10 in your PC.

[wisnon]

I am using both the LCD-X (original version) and HD800s and both are fantastic. I was about to sell my LCD-X until hearing them with this DAC and my Cavelli Liquid Carbon. Both are very good.

 

 

Wow, you and AL have very similar gear...MSB Dac and those 2 headPhones. He has woo amps rather than Cavelli though..

[wisnon]

I am also sure such demanding material as "tha funk capital" really needs more than DSD 128 to sound its best.

DSD 128 is probably only good enough for less demanding material like classical.

Chrille, what Dacs have you used so far to play back DSD? I think that is most of your problem right there...

You really have been listening to PCM type outputs from DSD input files.

[wisnon]

Wisnon, I am pretty sure the microRendu will do DSD512 with an IFI MicroDSD. I believe this was the first DAC with native DSD support on Linux. I saw a list of native DSD DACs that work with the microRendu somewhere around here.

 

Also, I worked with Jesus R on getting DSD256 going on the Brooklyn DAC. It took four days after my request to get a working version of ArchLinux with Brooklyn support. This took the work of four people on 4 countries. Just amazing! Thanks again Jesus R!

 

Lastly I heard a rumor that there is a version of Ubuntu that works in native DSD on the T+A DAC 8 DSD and Hqplayer.

 

So it seems we are making progress.

Ifi uses a different, non Amanero usb receiver. To do Linux native to Amanero on a uR means that an official linux upgrade will have to happen first. Patched Linux has been running dsd256 on amanero for endless months now.

 

Yes, I know you do Roon/hqp on a single machine, but your Win10 is primo and you also use a NAS helping out.

[wisnon]

I should also say that I'm running Roon and HQplayer from Smartperfect ram disks and related image files that are loaded at boot time.

 

And yes, I have a highly tuned version of Windows using edbk's excellent power shell scripts and guide found on CA. From there unneeded device drivers are removed using autoruns, and log files are turned off with regedit. There is more, but too much for now.

 

I'll be testing the latest AO win10 beta next week. I'm tried of tuning Windows.

 

Nice setup larry. Thanks for the further details.

[wisnon]

The designers of Chord and Benchmark are self avowed DSD "haters". Why would you count on them to deliver good DSD playback?

 

Chord's FPGA is just a bespoke "chip" with DSD subject to massive processing and in most cases, decimation. Both these brands treat DSD as a red headed stepchild. Don't get me wrong, the DAVE is wonderful on PCM and I guess the BenchMark is good there too.

 

Neither would be considered a DSD reference by me. I have heard the Hugo on DSD head to head with better DAcs and it was crushed by them.

 

As to material, you don't need original DSD material with using Jussi's wonderful up sampling engine! Simple rebook will do. Just make are to mate with a "chipless" engine, i.e. an elaborate discrete filter box. I would not choose PS Audio Stream for this as they make compromises to play back PCM source music in the same pathway.

[wisnon]

Question - with HQP player up-sampling everything to DSD, where is the PCM play back part coming with the PS Audio DAC ?

 

Dev,

 

From my understanding (and what was debated puublicly at the time) the way the DStream is designed is a compromise to allow PCM playback thru the same pathway. All the digital inputs in the Dstream goes thru the same rinse/washer cycle and all is FPGA upsampled to 10xDSD rate (IIRC not single bit though) as the lowest common mathematical multiple and then downsampled to DSD2x and then low pass filtered thru transformers. Point is, it is not optimsed for DSD, but is more a Jack of all trades to compromise for having a single (common) playback engine. I suspect that if Ted had things all his way, he would have had separate engines, but commercial dictates may have taken primacy here as Customer support may have demanded the ease of a simple and common pathway?

[wisnon]

Agree. I think most of the products are built to a price point and market needs. In spite, I wouldn’t call the PSA as jack of all trades. They certainly do and deserve way more than that. The new Torreys firmware release brings the DAC all to a new level and for free. How many DAC companies gives you these level of upgrades for free ?

Dev,

I meant that in terms of how it does its input and processing. I agree it does represent good value for money. It is not chopped liver and YES, the firmware upgrades are a plus. However, I think they would have been better if they allowed firmware Rolling, ie change firmware version on the fly to suit different genres of music....but I think they fear the Support problems that could arise from the less than adept trying this feature.

[wisnon]

Hello. Is anyone using a T & A Dac 8 DSD w/ Audirvana, which is my player of choice? (I recently startled upsampling Tidal hi fi to DSD64 - the limit of my Benchmark Dac 2 - and am hooked on this way of listening.) If so, how do the two play together? Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Should be fine. I see no issues as Amanero supports OSX up to DSD128 via DoP without a driver.

[wisnon]

+1

 

Version 2.0?

[wisnon]

I think the latest updates of HQP make itone of the best native rate players out there now. Before that was prceived as a slight weak point, but not anymore. Top notch for upsampled playback or native rate.

 

However, not sure that offline algorithms for upsampling can match those of HQP. Apparently Jussi OVER computes at 80bit floating point precision and then drps the final output to 64bit precision. Plus with his highly tuned sonar type hearing training, he was able to fine tune his computations by trial and error. Perhaps this explains why his product is so acclaimed?

 

Is it possible to capture &record the upsampled output of HQP easily? For storage and future playback?