T+a dac 8 dsd

[Gavin1977]

Does 2006be11 also play fine with Windows, or would you need to switch back to the manufacturers default firmware?

 

I'm hoping that 2006be11 is a 'fit and forget' update.

[Gavin1977]

On 4/11/2019 at 11:10 AM, Miska said:

 

I don't remember seeing 8 kHz packet noise on DAC8 DSD. It may always depend on overall system setup too, but in my case/setup at least.

 

 

Here's 1 kHz -120 dB tone being played at DSD256 and analog filter set to "clean".

 

Did you ever produce a set of graphs for PCM and DSD512 on the DAC8 as well?  This is quite an exceptional performance.

 

Also, I'm still finishing building my music server - can upsampled files from HQPlayer be saved locally so I can run these off a lower powered computer in the meantime?

[Gavin1977]

My feedback and thanks for @OE333 for the loan of the cable to update my DAC 8 DSD firmware to v2.7. 

 

I updated the Amanero firmware to version "DSD512x48x44" and CPLD version "CPLD_for_1080", CPU firmware version 2006be11.

 

I can report that this combination works fine with both Linux and Windows for me, however in Windows only the generic Amanero WASAPI driver works... the T+A AISO driver is not compatible.

 

So, this is definately a working solution and seems close to what might be needed for an official release - some immediate observations:

1. Custom drivers do still need to be produced, so that the DAC displays as 'T+A DAC 8 DSD' rather than 'Amanero Combo' in Windows etc...
2. Windows AISO driver needs to be produced.
3. Deployment... might be the most difficult and incur cost as you presently need to use the T+A custom cable and run SERV_MODE 97 to wipe the USB firmware prior to update, without this the update cannot be undertaken.  I don't know if it's possible for T+A to issue a future Firmware update that might allow wiping of the USB via USB cable, this would resolve a few issues and make deployment easier.

Anyhow hopefully we might have some feedback from T+A on their plans.

[Gavin1977]

2 hours ago, OE333 said:

 

Dear Gavin, regarding your observations I would like to give a few addiitonal hints and clarifications:

 

Re1: This is true. I know, that T+A is constantly monitoring the progress of the new Amanero firmware. As soon as this new firmware is mature and found to be working without any glitches with Windows and Linux, I am sure that T+A will release a new USB receiver firmware for the DAC8DSD. Up to now there are still some issues with the new Amanero firmware which keep T+A from releasing a new "T+A approved" firmware.

 

Re.2: If you update your USB receiver firmware to the latest Amanero version you can download and install the Amanero Windows driver on your Windows computer. This driver is a ASIO driver - my recommendation: install this Amanero driver and don't use WASAPI.

Linux (with a recent kernel version) should work "out of the box" without the need to install or patch anything.

 

Re3: For DAC8DSD with firmware 2.70 onwards there is no need of using the "SERV_MODE 97" command via serial connection. The update of the Amanero USB firmware can be initiated through some front panel button presses. The USB receiver update itself is then done via USB. How to do all this is described in the T+A service note S0143 (see link below):

https://github.com/OE333/DAC8-Service-Tool/blob/master/related_docs/S0143_DAC8DSD_Service_Mode.pdf

 

The serial cable is only needed one time to upgrade older DAC8DSD with firmware before 2.7x. After this is done you won't need the serial adapter cable  any more.

 

Please note: There is a easier way to upgrade DAC8DSDs with older firmware: The firmware update can be done via web-update through a T+A MP8 streamer. If you don't have one, you might ask your T+A dealer. Perhaps he can help and do the update in his shop. Only if this is not possible, the upgrade via serial adapter cable is necessary.

 

 

I hope my explanations above were helpful.

If anything is unclear don't hesitate to ask.

 

OE333

 

 

Brilliant - thank you so much!  I think it's very useful to have this summary and clarification.

[Gavin1977]

1 hour ago, sbenyo said:

In the pdf link, see that the USB firmware update can be done without need to open the DAC to erase the USB firmware.

If this is correct, it's great. I already updated the firmware to v2.70 and I did not want open the DAC for the USB update.

 

I also see there is a DSP update. Does anyone know what this means and how to do it?

 

Yes this is true - I found out the other day that provided you have firmware v2.7 then there is a certain combination of button presses you can use to wipe the USB firmware and update.  So everything can be done via USB 🙂

 

No idea about the dsp update though...

[Gavin1977]

So, XLR is best on DAC8 DSD...  my amplifier is single ended so is it worth running a pseudo balanced cable or just stick with RCA?

 

Thinking about going for these: https://www.mcru.co.uk/product/mcru-pure-silver-semi-balanced-interconnect/, if I stick with RCA then Oyaide TUNAMI TERZO RR seems very good for the price.

 

For my next amplifier I might go for a proper balanced design, so this is just a stopgap.

[Gavin1977]

12 minutes ago, barrows said:

Best option would likely be to run an XLR cable from the T+A to the amp.  Do not use adapters though, instead, get an XLR terminated at the source end with an XLR plug, and then terminated at the amp end with an RCA plug.  This way the signal remains balanced along the cable run, and you avoid the degradation caused by an additional set of connections (an adapter).  The cable should terminate the shield and XLR pin 3 wire to the shell of the RCA connector, and pin 2 to the center pin.  Many cable companies will make a custom cable like this for you (Cardas, probably Nordost, and I bet you could get Iconoclast to do such as well).  Looks like the cable in your link will work fine, but make sure the XLR end is the source end!

Cheers - ok Pseudo balanced it is.

[Gavin1977]

1 hour ago, bobflood said:

I use these with excellent results:

 

https://www.lundahltransformers.com/wp-content/uploads/datasheets/1584_x.pdf

https://www.lundahltransformers.com/problem-solvers/

 

This is what happens internally in a lot of tube equipment with balanced inputs. With these you get the summed signal from both of the legs of your balanced output. One is inverted by the transformer and then added to the other; nothing is lost. Just use a standard balanced cable to these and then into the amp single-ended input with them. Any other way results in the loss of one leg of the signal.

Thanks for this.  Trouble with the LL1584-3FXPHM is that it converts XLR to unbalanced straight out of the DAC, therefore all benefits of XLR output are lost.

 

Further down the line I might fit either Lundahls internally to my amp, or purchase a powered input buffer (Neurochrome, Signal Transfer company or Eltim Audio using the THAT drivers)... or when I build my next amplifier I'll just design it around a balanced system... probably my preference.

[Gavin1977]

4 hours ago, sbenyo said:

 

I wonder how these compare to high end RCAs. I have very good expensive Sablon RCAs and I am not sure if going semi-XLR will improve anything. I know that usually XLR to RCA requires some quality transformation and that there were dedicate adapters for that (e.g. Jensen Transformers). I wonder if this works well.

 

I was once looking for these Cardas adapters to use with my own RCA cables. At the end I decide not to buy them but I still wonder if this is a good solution that really makes any difference:

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CRCGAMXLR

 

I agree with Barrows comments and I also don't use any adaptors.  After a day long of reading I found this amazing article, best I've read, and completely answers all of my questions and convinced me to go full balanced.

 

https://audioxpress.com/article/a-transformer-coupled-balanced-output-for-solid-state-preamps

 

Pseudo balanced is good, but only for short runs as you loose circa 6dB and you need to impedance match.  So rather than bothering with this I've ordered the Oyaide TUNAMI TERZO RR as a temporary measure whilst I wait for a pair of Jensen JT-11P-1 Premium Line Input Transformers to arrive (no reseller in the UK, so I'm getting them shipped from Parts Express in the USA).  I will fit these to my single ended DIY amp to make it accept true balanced.  I'll use mundorf silver/gold as internal hookup wire and will keep the unbalanced connection from the transformer to my amp modules really short (I'm hoping for just a couple of cm).

 

Jensen transformers as also pretty good value really when you consider the alternatives.  For example, another way of building an balanced amplifier based on SE modules is two run two of them + and - but that comes with significant expense and size/thermal considerations.  Thing is that most amplifiers are SE, only a few are true balanced.  Also probably best to choose an amplifier based on how it sounds rather than SE / Balanced...  it's nice to have found a solution since the amps I want to listen to/build are all natively SE (Neurochrome and Purifi do interest me though).

 

I have considered the neurochrome universal input buffer, Douglas Selfs board, Eltim Audio also do some THAT based ones to allow SE amps to accept true balanced, but these Jensen transforms seem the best... very small distortion and great CMRR.  Based on specs alone, the other transformers I could probably take or leave (closest I found was the Hammond 140, which looks really nice, but CMRR is 'only' 65 dB so for the marginal price difference might as well go for the Jensens). Usings a transformer also allows you to stay in class A if this is how your DAC outputs (no op amps in the way) and transformers are also passive devices so don't need any power - easy retrofit.

 

I'll be able to feedback subjectively on true balanced using the jensen transformers, vs pseudo balanced vs single ended using the Oyaide TUNAMI TERZO RR in a couple of weeks time once I have the means.  It'll not be scientific, but it will be interesting.

 

Cheers

[Gavin1977]

I've not tested the Jensen transformers to convert to SE, but yesterday I tested the following batch of interconnects with DAC 8 DSD:

 

1. XLR-XLR, Switchcraft plugs with NeoTech nemoi-5220

2. Pseudo balanced, switchcraft XLR/RCA plugs , Van Damme tour grade microphone cable xke

3. RCA-RCA Oyaide TUNAMI TERZO RR

 

 

These are all pretty decent interconnects, all OCC, some silver plated conductors, some using teflon.

 

Anyhow, not a completely robust comparison because each cable type is different, but the cable capacitance and resistances are pretty similar.

 

The use of XLR-XLR compared to Pseudo balanced was pretty obvious, much better sound stage dimentions - also I should note that being the cheapest of all of the cables I believe that the Van damme cable was not audiably as good as the others.  Using the Oyaide cable RCA-RCA against the  XLR-XLR was a closer call, I believe the higher quality cable (actually quite a similar makeup to the 5220, except the neotech has rectangular teflon coated OCC wires) made the difference and was a close match to the neotech.  But the soundstage dimentions remained the same as the pseudo balanced and 'calmness' not as good as the true XLR-XLR.

 

So anyway, answered a few questions for me and I think I'll gravitate towards using amplifiers that include true balanced connections.  TUNAMI TERZO XX must be pretty good, and @guiltyboxswapper gave me a nice heads up on Sommer 'Epilogue' XLR interconnects that also look like a very good bargain / spec.

 

So my findings kinda back up what was expected.  Given the differences I've heard, RCA can sound really good, but I'm not sure if it has the potential to scale up as well as XLR-XLR.  I think XLR-XLR will maintain the lead.

[Gavin1977]

I’m still using it...  mola mola tambaqui on demo here soon so will post comparative findings at some point.

 

Either way, T+A DAC 8 DSD is a comparative bargain.

[Gavin1977]

I don't have experience with other NOS dacs, tried to get hold of a Terminator, but impossible in the UK as the local distributor just won't ship them out.

 

My previous dacs have been Chord Hugo, Naim DAC V1, Hugo 2, Hugo TT and then T&A DAC 8 DSD in that order.  I have never heard a DAVE but can imagine what it may sound like, e.g. Hugo TT has much better analogue stage than the Hugo 2 and therefore it actually have a larger soundstage (like higher end DAC's do), but the detail retrieval due to lower number of taps is obvious on the older TT.  So gives me an idea how things evolve the higher you go up the chain.

 

I did have a mojo at one point, I found the Naim DAC V1 better personally.

[Gavin1977]

Just to add... my journey in Hifi has largely followed @guiltyboxswapper as of late and we've exchanged a large number of conversations.  So I can vouch for the experience he shares... that's why I now own a T+A DAC 8 DSD.

 

Works brilliantly with the Purifi 1ET400's by the way.

 

My reasoning at looking at other DAC's is to potentially move away from the high CPU demands of upscaling everything to DSD, I like the idea of Terminators high res PCM as well and the Mola Mola which does it all in one box. 

 

Also, the T+A has it's own 'sound' (like all pieces of hifi equipment) so needs matching... it's a very dynamic performer.  Sometimes my mood does remind me how much I like the 'idea' (footnote 1) of the less detailed, but warmer sound of the Hugo TT.  Anyhow, I'm still running with the T+A as I think it can continue to improve my system, I just need to spend some more time adjusting other components around it.

 

We'll see when the mola-mola arrives for demo early next month I'll then have a reference point... or a very light wallet :-)

 

Footnote 1: Must say, if you run PCM through the DAC 8 DSD (burr brown if I remember correctly), it sounds a lot closer to the  Hugo TT.  And you know what, I choose to avoid it even though it's very decent.  Memory and aural recollection are never really that good.

[Gavin1977]

I think you scored them almost exactly the same as what Darko Audio did 😀

[Gavin1977]

I will be demoing HQP+D8D DSD playback vs Tambaqui PCM playback early November.

 

As reported elsewhere, DSD on T+A DAC 8 DSD is significantly superior to PCM given the right computer source (again learned from guiltyboxswapper).

[Gavin1977]

35 minutes ago, georgios said:

Interesting. I also saw someone commented the highs of D8D DSD512 sounded blurry compared to PCM.

I find it difficult to believe that!  DSD on my D8D has significantly more clarity compared to PCM.

[Gavin1977]

19 minutes ago, mevdinc said:

I wonder if T+A DAC 8 DSD will see an upgrade soon using the latest DSD 1024 capabilities of the top-end T+A DACs. Even their latest HA 200 headphone amp does DSD 1024.
 

What would be really amazing is if they took a approach similar to PS Audio Direct stream - use a dedicated chip (e.g. xilinx fpga) to do all of the upsampling internally to DSD. so that only PCM input is needed.... that'd be great!

 

Other than that I don't see much need to - I can barely run DSD 256 with M-Sync and EC filters.

[Gavin1977]

1 minute ago, PieterJan said:

Hello all.

I read the comments on DSD upsampling, use of HQP and comparing D8D to other devices with interest. I used to run Roon Nucleus as the machine to upsample all my content (housed on a Melco N10) tot DSD512 using the Amanero 2006BE11 software on my D8D. All worked well and sounds great. I have never had the desire to deploy additional hardware in the source to speaker chain.

 

A few weeks ago Melco announced a new release for its streamers establishing them as "Roon Ready" devices. After some fiddling around I quickly returned to a direct USB connection from the Melco N10 to the D8D whilst being able to continue to use Roon as the solution for selecting, searching, discovering and obtaining background of my existing music portfolio or the portfolio delivered by Qobuz.

 

In my experience (and yes I do recognize it is a subjective experience) my setup using direct USB connection from streamer to D8D without any upsampling and ofcourse the accoustics of my listening environment deliver a much livelier, better placed and significantly better music experience then Roon upsampling tot DSD512 has ever been able to deliver. And yest that counts for PCM 44.1khz at 16 bit.

 

Don't count D8D with a direct USB connection out. There is only one device I would trade my D8D for and that is the SDV3100-HV, but at 9 times the D8D price that will take a little while.... hahaha.

 

Just my ten cents.

 

My set, Melco N10, D8D, P3100HV, PS3000HV, Kef reference5, Roon nucleus, AQvox switch, Farad power supplies for Nucleus and AQvox.

Nice setup.  This matches other peoples experience. 

 

However, once you have a Pink Faun, SGM Extreme or a very high end DIY server (like myself or guittyboxswapper which use a JCAT USB XE among other things), then a separate server / end-point no longer sounds better.  The one box solution wins.

 

Also, just running HQPlayer embedded off a USB stick sounds really good (better than Roon IMO, as it's really lightweight).

[Gavin1977]

Reporting back:

 

 

[Gavin1977]

1 hour ago, fds said:

 

That is exactly what I had thought and was fully convinced of ... even more surprised I was and still am at how well the HQP volume control is working when upsampling red book PCM to DSD512. I strongly recommend to give the DAC8DSD a try in this setting. Of course, when using software control, one has to be very careful, e.g., such that other computer generated sounds will not be played back at full volume and thereby fry your tweeters (and/or your ears).

 

The (analog) volume control of my Ayre KX-5 is of very high quality along with its other features such as output stage. I believe that anything of similar quality will be very hard to find in a DAC below say 5K. Not sure about the Bricasti M3 but the Mola Mola Makua preamp with inbuilt (basically Tambaqui) DAC upgrade will certainly be up to it ... now - in light of this - using the DAC8DSD direct to power amp with HQP volume control feels a bit like cheating. Looking at the posts of @Gavin1977 here comparing the DAC8DSD to the Mola Mola Tambaqui for example, I get the feeling that I get a performance very close to the Mola Mola at a fraction of the price ... or basically for free when considering that now I could basically sell my preamp along with the extra footers/power cord/XLR cable pair.

 

Spot on - the main difference with the Mola Mola was better imaging.

 

Also, you can set the start-up volume and also a volume limit if you use HQPlayer (embedded version in my case) which should help prevent any issues.

 

My search still continues...  I have more feedback coming...  including one configuration that does incorporate a preamp that I rather like.

[Gavin1977]

I have not listened to exaSound before, but I have listened to ESS 9038... I don't think it would compare to DAC8 being fed DSD.  ESS chips are not 'DSD Direct', so the sound quality is likely to be similar the PCM section of the DAC8 DSD.  Would still sound jolly good of course.  That's just my understanding.

[Gavin1977]

T+A made any progress with a formal Firmware release yet...?

 

I've been running CPLD_1081_DSDSWAPPED and 2006be11 for some time now and have been flawless under both Windows and Linux.

[Gavin1977]

7 hours ago, jiminlogansquare said:

Based on the T+A Service Note regarding updating the firmware (attached below), the cable you need is just a standard RS232 cable (DB9 to RJ11), see picture below of a representative example. Maybe one of these at Amazon will work, at around $10 or $12.  Edited to add: You'll need to confirm whether you need a male or female RS232 jack based on your PC.

S0126_DAC8DSD_FW_Update.pdf 180.38 kB · 5 downloads

You’ll need to rewire this according to T+A’s documentation.

[Gavin1977]

You must use the swapped version otherwise the audio channels (L/R) are the wrong way around.

 

Nice solution for the cable

[Gavin1977]

I’ve actually sold my T+A - didn’t fancy explaining to the buyer that the channels where the wrong way around.  I only noticed when testing side by side against my new DAC.