T+a dac 8 dsd

[Ben-M]

Though I read about it when the thread was started, I haven't had a look at the T+A Dac 8 DSD until reviews from SGM's demo at Munich High-end started coming out. Those music servers look really nice.

 

Anyway, can anyone give me the skinny on whether it's possible to send a regular T+A DAC 8 back in for an upgrade to the new DAC 8 DSD level? And if it is possible, what's it cost?

 

Fanks!

[Ben-M]

Your best bet would be to contact T+A directly but I would be surprised if it could be.

 

The differences between the DAC 8 and the DAC 8 DSD is not just the DSD. It is my understanding that the PCM side also had several "upgrades/changes" to it.

 

But hey, unless you ask you never will know for sure.

 

Good luck.

Thanks, that's what I'll do.

[Ben-M]

New question(for me):

 

How does DSD512 upsampling on HQP work with this and the new Sonore microRendu in NAA mode? Since the mRendu is Linux based it's not "officially supported" according to the DAC 8 DSD User Manual for Linux, but the manual says the DAC 8 DSD will work with properly implemented USB2 audio kernels, like ALSA (which I believe the mRendu uses).

 

But then the User Manual goes on to say that if it does work, it'd be limited to DSD128.

 

The mRendu is special though, so I'm sure this "issue" must have crossed Jesus's mind given his support for the DSD format.

 

So, can anyone tell me where we're at on that?

[Ben-M]

There is no support for Linux native DSD in the T+A USB interface, so being a Linux machine, the microRendu cannot stream DSD256 or DSD512 to this DAC.

 

There is some hope that this will change in the future as the provider of the USB interface used in the T+A is working on a native DSD driver. Assuming success, and that the T&A company will support upgrades to this new driver, in theory the microRendu should work at DSD512 with the T&A.

 

Fingers crossed!

 

Thanks for bringing me into the loop on that. I ask because my Control PC just got smashed by a shipping company and I'm out 1/2 of my PC system now. I'm looking at the microRendu to hopefully become the new Audio PC/NAA and shift the old Audio PC into Control PC duties.

 

Based on your answer though, it seems that's not really an option right now and I've got to get a new PC. Maybe down the road the Linus doing DSD512 thing will be sorted and the microRendu will become an option for me.

 

I am also sure such demanding material as "tha funk capital" really needs more than DSD 128 to sound its best.

DSD 128 is probably only good enough for less demanding material like classical.

 

You got me laughing there. That was funny.

 

Until Linux is updated to support DSD256 and 512 natively on the Amanero, then we are stuck waiting. Jesus says it will come soon enough as it is being worked on. They wait for the official update and won't do a "patch".

 

Thanks for further confirmation on that. Based on a few of the posts above there might be some hope of that happening in the somewhat near'ish'kinda future.

 

I figure I'll have room for a new DAC, maybe the T+A DAC 8 DSD, in my life around this time next year. It could be another DAC in the $5k range, I don't know yet. I hope by then this official Linux and official microRendu upgrade has been taken care of.

[Ben-M]

20 hours ago, Sonny Oh said:

Anybody tried to compare T+A DAC8DSD with the following DACs?

-Holo Spring DAC (level III) with both high res PCM and DSD265 or DSD512 HQP upsampled sources

-PS Audio DirectStream / Torray with redbook and high res PCM and DSD

-AMR DP-777SE (only PCM though) with redbook or high res PCM

-Schiit Yggy with redbook or high res PCM

+1 I'd love to see some feedback on these comparisons too

[Ben-M]

I haven't been keeping up with this or the uRendu thread like I used to, but I thought not too long ago I read there had been some beta firmware upgrade to the uRendu so that it'd play DSD512 fine with the DAC 8 DSD. Was that true, is there something in the works there and making progress, or am I confusing some late night reading I was doing while falling asleep that turned some hope into "reality"? 

[Ben-M]

On 4/17/2017 at 1:40 AM, richard kimber said:

I've always understood that with a Linux machine you need a T+A firmware update plus kernel 4.10, or possibly 4.11. Windows machines do it already.

 

 

I have a sliver of a memory about someone was sending a T+A DAC 8 DSD to someone close to the DSD scene (Ted B, Jesus, etc.) or they were sending a uRendu to T+A and there was something about trying to make it DSD512 compliant? I hope I'm not making that one up based on too much hope here...

[Ben-M]

2 minutes ago, richard kimber said:

Yes, my understanding is that a T+A DAC has been sent to the Amanero developers so that they can better develop the firmware needed for DSD512 under linux.

Ah-ha! So there was something to that sliver 

 

So the issue at hand is an Amanero USB driver/firmware issue... I really hope something can be worked out here and the Amanero(T+A DAC 8 DSD)<->Linux(uRendu) communication can be straightened out. If so, the DAC 8 DSD is very likely going to be my next purchase after my new speakers. If not, then it's likely onto the HOLO Audio Spring DAC

[Ben-M]

2 hours ago, bibo01 said:

Amanero has received T&A DAC only today. He was supposed to receive it almost two weeks ago.

However, he's been working on DSD512 - distortion, on/off... - and he is ego to try it on the DAC directly to hopefully release a new firmware soon.

I will speak to him next week for an update. 

Fantastic news! 

 

But let me ask another question to clarify my understanding of this. 

 

If the DAC 8 DSD is with Amanero (company) now, and in a few weeks or a month he has figured out whatever firmware changes need to be made to allow everything with the Amanero USB input board of the T+A DAC 8 DSD to communicate fine with the uRendu (and other Linux based devices outputting up to DSD512/DSD1024), what happens then? How does the end user with a T+A DAC 8 DSD update their Amanero USB input board firmware?

 

I'm not 100% certain about Amanero firmware updates, but what I have read requires you have the board exposed and need to short 2 contact points in order to erase the flash memory, then follow the steps outlined on the Amanero website. Would that be any different in our case? I hope it doesn't require opening up the DAC 8 DSD or taking out the Amanero USB card...

[Ben-M]

So we have no idea... Haha.

 

I thought i was behind the curve, but looks like I'm just one of the team here and we're all standing by to find out if it's possible, then next we'll see how to do it. 

 

Well, I'm all ears for whenever someone finds out

[Ben-M]

Damn, that's not good news at all. 

I stepped away for a few months and last time I was here was when a DAC 8 DSD was sent to Amanero for testing and validation of DSD512. Things looked promising then, but now it's seeming like it'll be a while at best... I don't doubt too much that the Amanero crew will work out the bugs and get native DSD512 running stable on Linux, but that response from T+A really makes me wonder if they'd commit much effort to accepting and validating Amanero's solution and then coordinating whatever needed efforts for the firmware update...

 

I can still do Windows NAA as well, but I've been pretty eager to buy and try a mRendu. If this issue doesn't get sorted I think I'll hold onto my cash for now or invest elsewhere :-/

[Ben-M]

6 hours ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

If you can face running a quiet PC, I would seriously consider the JCAT Femto card with an external DC supply of sorts.  Better than any regen/reclocking device by far (i've tried quite a few, even with isolated power from PC).  It comes with a low profile bracket if that helps.

 

Recently had a Chord DAVE at my home, and both it and the T+A benefitted from the JCAT USB feed.  BTW, the T+A is staying put after that comparison... huge surprise but turns out EuroDriver was right on the money after all.

No chance you've tried that new JCAT Femto NIC? I've wondered where one of those heading into a mRendu or the new Uber Rendu would be the top of the game?

 

I'll have to rethink the JCAT USB Femto card. I have a PPA v2 card, which was well received, but never did end up checking out the JCAT cards.

[Ben-M]

On 27/07/2017 at 7:08 PM, bibo01 said:

and @louisxiawei

Do not give up!  

I spoke to Amanero today and he told me that he has received an email from T&A confirming that latest firmware is working fine with DSD512 (incidentally they also use HQPlayer  ).
Very soon (probably a couple of days, maybe less) Amanero will release final version of firmware - 2003 - which is further optimized (he tested it last night) and it also contains code for Windows (2002 did not).

That is AWESOME news!

 

Do you happen to have any idea where we stand with the upgrade? Like will it be a mail in deal or does it seem possible at home?

 

I'm aware the standard Amanero update is done at home, but you need to open up your device and pull some jumpers, then short some things, etc.

 

The DAC 8 DSD doesn't use a standard, Amanero daughter board, so that path is out.

 

I'm alright with sending it in, I just wish I didn't have to if there's an at home option.

 

Any news is much appreciated. And thanks again for brightening my day with that info. 

[Ben-M]

I reached out to T+A directly, to see what's up on both the new firmware and on the upgrade options.

 

Here's the word:

"We know about a new Amanero firmware that supports DSD512 via Linux. As we know this new firmware has a few bugs so we don’t want to use it in the nearer future. If Amanero offers a new stable version, when of course we proof to offer an update for our DASC8DSD.

 

In this case maybe the update must be done here in Germany in the factory. If we find another way to install the update directly, of course it would be the better way."

 

So:

#1. Firmware is still beta, no release candidate yet.

#2. Need to return to factory for update, not field serviceable far as they understand now. 

[Ben-M]

No wonder this took me so long to find going back through the forum pages... There hasn't been a post since November!

 

Well, I've finally bought one for myself, so in a month or so I'll get to hear what it's all about. But what about the Linux DSD512 playback upgrade? Does anyone have any more info? 

[Ben-M]

15 hours ago, bibo01 said:

By "small on-board resources" I mean the processor capability and size of buffer on board Amanero board are limited. His new board overcomes such problems... oops. 

Do you mean the Combo384 board has a new version coming out? Or that recent versions of this board, which is not in the DAC 8 DSD, have been upgraded and don't have the same limits? 

 

Either way, good info on both fronts. Thanks, guys. Even if no results, it's good to stay in the loop. 

 

As a recap: it seems there will still be another firmware revision ahead from Amanero, then MS Windows driver signing. Then T+A still has to get in touch with Amanero, receive the firmware, and then do a bunch of testing. They have already stated their focus is to confirm if everything meets current sound quality and functionality or better, otherwise this update won't be pursued by T+A. 

 

Sounds good to me, but also means "sit tight", as it's gonna take a while ?

[Ben-M]

On 2018-03-15 at 6:02 PM, volpone said:

I'm interested in @Miska opinion on latest AMANERO FW (Linux NAA).

Seems still some glitches and no news from Amanero according to https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12 isn't it ? However perhaps is it usable on DAC8 DSD ?

I reached out to T+A a few months back when the new Amanero firmware was about to be released and then after it(or a beta) was released. They said they'd had minimal contact with Amanero, but that once they were ready to go they'd make sure the new firmware never introduced any new, negative effects at the cost of attaining any new features. Their main target was on maintaining the current playback quality and delivery, and as long as that could be secured, then they'd explore what the new firmware might grant them. 

 

My takeaway was that, very unfortunately, any progress with T+A updating out DAC 8 DSD's firmware to accept DSD512 from Linux was a LONNNNNG ways off. And I think I confirmed that any USB firmware upgrade like that would require the DAC 8 DSD to be sent back to T+A or a distributor that could perform the updating. 

 

Anyone have any other news or feedback on a DAC-off they've done recently? I'm playing with the idea of picking up a Mivera Audio Purestream DAC (native DSD 256 limit and preference) and having the two duke it out. It'll be another month before I've got my listening setup fully back together, though. 

[Ben-M]

On 2018-03-31 at 8:22 PM, guiltyboxswapper said:

I had the phison PD2 around, ran with hqplayer in the same setup as the T+A.  Close but not quite the match.  Pd2 similar to purestream, shared lot of same circuits.

 

Bass articulation and dynamics were the noticeable behind as well as a mild forward sounding mid-range (some might prefer depending on setup).  Qualities such as presence and voice timbre weren't quite T+A grade.  In it's own right mind it's a fantastic unit, just if you know what the T+A sounds like....

 

Was used in direct DSD mode, and it supports both dop DSD 256 and native DSD 256 without a fuss as the xmos chipset is well supported.

 

Might be worth trying purestream anyway, as I have a very resolving setup (blades, ncore 1200s in bufferless mode, room treatment, jcat femto USB etc).  Not sure most systems would pick up the difference, but it was there.

Interesting news. Yes, I'd seen the talk about the PD2 and the Purestream. That's pretty cool that someone has tried at least a similar version of the combo. 

 

The excitement/consumerism has passed now, a bit, and I think I'm going to try to keep my head on straight for a while. If a Superstream endpoint does come up, I'll snatch one of those up immediately, though...

[Ben-M]

No one in the collective has reached out to T+A or Amanero lately regarding the DSD512 upgrade, have they? I'm still hoping that "upgrade" comes through, as it'll open the door for a lot of different endpoints and system designs vs. the Windows only limitation we've got now. 

[Ben-M]

I'll have to reach out to both Amanero and T+A again about it. I did before, but like you said, it's been a while since either one gave any real feedback.

 

I also have a Windows based machine to feed my DAC 8 DSD, but there are several purpose built, Linux OSes that I would love to try at DSD512; Snake Oil OS, Euphony OS, Debian, Audiophile Linux, or HQPlayer Embedded. Then the streamers like Sonore UltraRendu or some Raspberry Pis. 

 

It's true, it's to have a look, but I'd also guess there's a decent chance one of those might have a sound I prefer. 

 

Anyway, I'll reach out and report back again

[Ben-M]

23 hours ago, RS241 said:

Next try:

In this respect it would be interesting to hear from @louisxiawei and @wolft  if they have heard of any progress with that update tool ?

 

2

Third time's the charm!

 

I'm also wondering how things have gone with either of them. 

 

And what about Amanero? I know they/he aren't a big operation, but I'd love to hear some great news about the DSD512 over Linux & Windows issue having been sorted out 100%. 

[Ben-M]

4 minutes ago, ddetaey said:

 

Would it be possible for someone with a good relationship with Amanero, to enquire if it would be possible to produce a Linux ONLY driver, capable of correct native DSD512.

 

I do believe this would sattisfy al lot of users with DAC's, making use of the Amanero USB module.

I also believe that most users do not require a solution that supports both Windows and Linux.  

Even if DAC manufacturers would hesitate (or even refuse) to support  this Linux only firmware, we as end-customer  will be able to decide if we take that responsibilty ourselves, just as twluke has done.

I know I will, but it would be nice to have access to a 'certified' firmware.  

2004be seems to come close, and with Windowds support dropped, maybe it can easily be finetuned for flawless Linux operation

 

Dirk

I see your point, but I literally need both to be supported. Haha.

 

I was really hoping that popping noise that was found and alerted to T+A earlier would have pressed them to find an official way to solve the issue, and get Linux support going at the same time, but that seems like it's fallen off the radar now. Sadly. I also have noticed this problem with my DAC and it's annoying once it's known. 

 

Then with 2004be, has Windows support been "dropped", or is Amanero just trying to solve 1 problem at a time and the problem solving for Linux has just resulted in Windows support temporarily disabled? 

[Ben-M]

I have emailed T+A and Amanero/Dom here and there since the beginning of last year, trying to do what I could between the two companies to further the progress on a new Linux and Windows DSD512 capable firmware. Not that I think I make any big difference, but I hoped to do what I could because I felt the two companies weren't coordinating very well (only my suspicions, in talking to both of them directly, about the same set of problems). 

 

So, I picked back up again with both lately and have some news from yesterday from Dom:

 

1.

He says that Lothar/T+A has just recently sent him some new "support", which gives him the capability of fast testing any new code to verify its performance. No more guessing. He is now developing directly on the DAC 8 DSD.

-

He didn't elaborate what that support was, but he said it has already helped him advance the firmware.

 

 

2.

He says he is working on a new, unified firmware that will support both Windows and Linux at DSD512. No more singular versions.

 

 

3. 

He says that he has a new WIP/alpha version of the Windows driver that can "drive the Linux firmware", and that this is a very meaningful advancement in the progress towards the final version. 

- 

I'm not sure what that means, but again, he was positive about the importance of this progress and said he'd have some news some time soon.

----------------------------

 

I'm not sure how this will play out, it has been going on for +2 years. But it's good news that both sides are still talking with each other and that Dom is still committed to answering questions on the firmware progress. 

 

My fingers all remain crossed that we'll get a stable and reliable DSD512 capable firmware update in the near future, enabling our DAC 8 DSDs to work with all modern, high-end transports based on Windows and the new uber breeds based on Linux. 

[Ben-M]

On 5/4/2019 at 6:02 AM, EduZ said:

 

Is there some incompatibility or error to use UltraRendu with HQPlayer as NAA active,  connected directly on T+A DAC 8 DSD (Roon and HQPlayer are installed on NUC-Windows 10) ?

Thank you !

 

On 5/4/2019 at 11:31 AM, EduZ said:

 

Thank you @firedog...   Really it was my doubt .  I woud like get a new DAC like a T+A DAC8 or Hegel HD30, but it needs be compatible with UR as HQPlayer NAA.   So, really I will have a limitation to run DSD. 

Is there some alternative for that?

 

21 hours ago, EduZ said:

I meant an issue (to me) = incompability, because I can't use the UR plugged directly to DAC.

 

Can you clearly state what problem you are asking about? 

 

You want to connect a UR directly to your DAC, which may be a T+A DAC 8 DSD or a Hegel HD40. 

 

But what "incompatibility" are you -exactly- asking about or trying to avoid?

---------------------

 

In my opinion so far, I think EduZ has said somethings and there have been some replies, but overall there is confusion about what's actually being asked/discussed. 

 

I think that Firedog, guiltyboxswapper(...), and Jesus have all given good answers, but I don't feel that EduZ either understands the "problem" or the responses.

[Ben-M]

9 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

Your understanding is correct.

Not exactly. There is also a beta firmware for the Amanero/DAC 8 DSD that supports DSD512 on Linux only. However, there are some issues with pops/cracks and dropouts. Some owners said it's infrequent enough that it's well worth it to enable Linux @DSD512 support. Whereas owners like myself don't want to go that route, yet. 

 

But like Craig already detailed, there are certain limits for these choices and you need to decide which one suits you.

 

Or you need to wait until Dom/Amanero releases the unified and fully compatible firmware and then you can upgrade yourself via the recently mentioned method, or you can wait further for T+A to approve and release the firmware upgrade by whichever means they develop to do so.