Audible difference between analog interconnects

[mansr]

It doesn't take an engineer to listen to music.

 

Did anyone ever say it does?

[semente]

I'm not saying you guys are wrong. The points you make are valid. I'm just saying that after trying many different pairs of SR cables, and hearing some significant differences, there may be something to support their claims. Could I be wrong? Yes. I've been wrong many times. Just trying to look at all possible factors. Nothing more.

 

What false claims does SR make?

 

Since were talking about legit cable claims, what do you guys think about this claim from Purist Audio Design?

 

"Purist's most advanced technology uses a light source to illuminate the cable's dielectric, which produces an ethereal three-dimensional soundfield that sounds like surround sound from two channels. The Radiant Light Source (RLS) cables basically add this optical illumination to the company's award-winning (the absolute sound's 2003 Golden Ear Award Winnerfor Interconnect and Loudspeaker Cables) Dominus cables. The Purist web site describes the RLS cables thusly: "The Radiant Light Cable System, newly introduced by Purist Audio Design in 1998, is the only system of its kind in the world. It takes the already superb Dominus cable and adds a special form of radiant-optical fiber. These optical fibers are illuminated by a specially designed light source and radiate light around the conductors. The light changes the properties of the insulation surrounding the conductors, thus minimizing distortion in music reception."

 

Could something like that even work?

 

I tend to be sceptical of manufacturers that prefer to describe the sonic atributes of their designs instead of characterising their technical choices and providing measurements of them.

But I don't find much use in "subjective" reviews either, unless they come from someone with similar sonic and listening objectives and "culture".

 

R

[Paul R]

While I don't even pretend to understand what it is that they are saying, I'd almost be willing to bet money that nobody else does either - including SR! If there were anything to procedures like this, they would be discussed in peer reviewed journals. That they apparently are not, speaks volumes. This sounds to me like pure marketing speak, and definitely falls under my earlier definition of snake oil. Maybe they are on to something, if so, I'd expect to see words associated with their description like "patent pending" and papers submitted to such agust bodies as the IEEE, or the AES, but I've never heard or seen any such activity mentioned on SR's web site, so I doubt that any such patent protection or any real research has been done. I could be wrong, of course, but the above description reads so much like bullpuckey, that I kind of doubt that I am.

 

Actually, a bit of the science behind that technobabble is real. Light strinking a dialectric does cause a difference. If we are talking specific dialectrics coated on some noble metals, it can even cause a color change and increased conductivity. I think that Maxwell's equations can explain this, but that is just a guess. Or perhaps a vauge memory.

 

But what they are claiming for these cables is so unlikely that I would expect it more likely that a cure for cancer will be announced at exactly 3:51:27 CST this afternoon.

[mordante]

Is this site sponsored by blue jeans cables?

 

In every cable thread the brand is mentioned.

[plissken]

Is this site sponsored by blue jeans cables?

 

In every cable thread the brand is mentioned.

 

I don't think they are. It's simply a by-product of building a great cable, with with a no b.s. approach, that is a giant slayer.

 

The fact I can get a $12 Ethernet cable with it's very own certification sheet, in color, sent with it and I can't get a $350 AQ Vodka cable with the same is why you see Blue Jeans Cables mentioned so often when you see a cable deliver a 2800% advantage.

 

Blue Jeans Cable is a breath of fresh air in this industry.

[bluesman]

I would never put a penny or anything else on top of a tonearm's head-shell, if your cartridge is skipping on clean mint LPs the stylus is worn and needs to be replaced.

Absolutely right!! Weighting the head to solve a tracking problem is a mistake - whatever's wrong needs to be fixed, even if it's just that the arm/cartridge combo is poorly chosen. But damping putties have been used for decades, on shells or between the cartridge and the bottom of the shell, to mitigate mechanical resonance, and many think they improve SQ. As I recall, the SME III comes with it.

[CR250]

While I don't even pretend to understand what it is that they are saying, I'd almost be willing to bet money that nobody else does either - including SR! If there were anything to procedures like this, they would be discussed in peer reviewed journals. That they apparently are not, speaks volumes. This sounds to me like pure marketing speak, and definitely falls under my earlier definition of snake oil. Maybe they are on to something, if so, I'd expect to see words associated with their description like "patent pending" and papers submitted to such agust bodies as the IEEE, or the AES, but I've never heard or seen any such activity mentioned on SR's web site, so I doubt that any such patent protection or any real research has been done. I could be wrong, of course, but the above description reads so much like bullpuckey, that I kind of doubt that I am.

 

The above claim is from PAD not SR. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

[CR250]

I don't think they are. It's simply a by-product of building a great cable, with with a no b.s. approach, that is a giant slayer.

 

The fact I can get a $12 Ethernet cable with it's very own certification sheet, in color, sent with it and I can't get a $350 AQ Vodka cable with the same is why you see Blue Jeans Cables mentioned so often when you see a cable deliver a 2800% advantage.

 

Blue Jeans Cable is a breath of fresh air in this industry.

 

As far as I know, Blue Jeans doesn't make cables, they're just a retailer. I suspect they're success is due to emotional reasons as much as anything. You could buy Belden and Canare long before Blue Jeans was in business. I'm not saying their cables are bad, but its clear that their marketing strategy is the key to success. They provide validation and emotional support so audiophiles don't feel bad about buying "cheap" cables. Before anyone gets mad and calls me out in anger over my comments, tell me why on one bought the same exact cables Blue Jeans sells before they went into business? I'll also say it again, but it won't matter. I'm not accusing Blue Jeans of selling bad cables. They look fine and probably work OK.

[CR250]

Let us keep it simple. Just list any SR claims that are not false. It is a dramatically shorter list.

 

I was being serious. I don't like SR cables myself, but I won't bash them for false claims just because everyone else does.

[mansr]

As far as I know, Blue Jeans doesn't make cables, they're just a retailer. I suspect they're success is due to emotional reasons as much as anything. You could buy Belden and Canare long before Blue Jeans was in business. I'm not saying their cables are bad, but its clear that their marketing strategy is the key to success. They provide validation and emotional support so audiophiles don't feel bad about buying "cheap" cables. Before anyone gets mad and calls me out in anger over my comments, tell me why on one bought the same exact cables Blue Jeans sells before they went into business? I'll also say it again, but it won't matter. I'm not accusing Blue Jeans of selling bad cables. They look fine and probably work OK.

 

Blue Jeans do the terminations themselves. I have no idea if they do it better or worse than others using Belden wire.

[plissken]

As far as I know, Blue Jeans doesn't make cables, they're just a retailer. I suspect they're success is due to emotional reasons as much as anything. You could buy Belden and Canare long before Blue Jeans was in business. I'm not saying their cables are bad, but its clear that their marketing strategy is the key to success. They provide validation and emotional support so audiophiles don't feel bad about buying "cheap" cables. Before anyone gets mad and calls me out in anger over my comments, tell me why on one bought the same exact cables Blue Jeans sells before they went into business? I'll also say it again, but it won't matter. I'm not accusing Blue Jeans of selling bad cables. They look fine and probably work OK.

 

BJC takes cabling and terminates in house. The way the conduct their business is transparent. I like dealing with honest brokers. So they 'assemble cables'.

 

BJC certainly provides validation but 'emotional support'? That's a stretch.

 

My 'validated CAT6' cables demonstratively outperform cables costing 28 times more. That's not emotional, just common rational sense.

 

What do you mean by 'probably work OK'? They work to spec.

 

All anyone need know about a cable is to measure the output of some device and then plug a cable in and measure the output again. The least amount of harm done is the cable to go after.

 

Belden, Canare, Mogami, Liberty, GepCo etc.. put a lot of engineering effort into their designs. They throw away more scrap from production in any given month than the boutique outfits sell in a year.

[CR250]

Absolutely right!! Weighting the head to solve a tracking problem is a mistake - whatever's wrong needs to be fixed, even if it's just that the arm/cartridge combo is poorly chosen. But damping putties have been used for decades, on shells or between the cartridge and the bottom of the shell, to mitigate mechanical resonance, and many think they improve SQ. As I recall, the SME III comes with it.

 

Someone just started a thread that directs you to take a hearing test over the internet. Is it a valid test? I would think you need to have an exact volume setting, along with equipment that is known to have the required fidelity to properly play the test.

[esldude]

I was being serious. I don't like SR cables myself, but I won't bash them for false claims just because everyone else does.

 

I was being serious as well. To discuss false claims would need it's own huge thread. The true claims, if there are any, is going to be a compact thread.

[gmgraves]

Is this site sponsored by blue jeans cables?

 

In every cable thread the brand is mentioned.

 

 

Not as far as I'm concerned. I've never used a Blue Jeans brand cable!

[gmgraves]

Blue Jeans do the terminations themselves. I have no idea if they do it better or worse than others using Belden wire.

 

Actually, I think we'll find that most cable manufacturers don't actually make the wire used in the cable they sell (although it's probable that at least some do). Most have their wire made to their specs and buy it from some third-party vendor. Someone on this forum (I forget who it was) once posted that they knew who the manufacturer was that supplied wire to most of the boutique cable companies. Perhaps they could come forward with some more info. Of course, the cable manufacturers buy this wire in bulk and assemble their cables themselves.

[CR250]

"What do you mean by 'probably work OK'? They work to spec."

 

It means that I'm not trashing them. But until I use a product myself, its probably, not definitely.

 

"All anyone need know about a cable is to measure the output of some device and then plug a cable in and measure the output again. The least amount of harm done is the cable to go after."

 

That's an assumption on your part. You don't know my needs, or anyone else's. That's not the only way you can measure a cable.

 

"BJC certainly provides validation but 'emotional support'? That's a stretch."

 

Really? Before Blue Jeans cable, no one was going out and buying Belden and Canare cable, and boasting about how good they are, godsend, breath of fresh air, etc......? Blue Jeans has enough followers where its OK to admit using them. Notice how no one ever says I bought Belden cable? They bought Blue Jeans cable. Its not a brand, its an image.

 

"BJC takes cabling and terminates in house. The way the conduct their business is transparent. I like dealing with honest brokers. So they 'assemble cables'."

 

Terminating cables is not assembling cables. They buy assembled cables and put the connectors on them. There's a big difference. Not only that, how does terminating cables make them honest and transparent? What's your definition of an honest broker? If I bought some entry level AQ or Kimber bulk cables from Cable Company and had them terminate them for me, why would they be any less honest or transparent than Blue Jeans?

 

"My 'validated CAT6' cables demonstratively outperform cables costing 28 times more. That's not emotional, just common rational sense."

 

Assuming that's true, I agree.

 

"Belden, Canare, Mogami, Liberty, GepCo etc.. put a lot of engineering effort into their designs. They throw away more scrap from production in any given month than the boutique outfits sell in a year."

 

I was debating whether I should reply to that one. Why is that relevant? Better yet, how would you even know that? To me, it looks like an emotional response.

[plissken]

 

It means that I'm not trashing them. But until I use a product myself, its probably, not definitely.

 

All the cabling BJC uses has spec's published for them. You know exactly what you are getting.

 

 

That's an assumption on your part. You don't know my needs, or anyone else's. That's not the only way you can measure a cable.

 

No, Least Amount of Harm, is not conjecture. A cable is a frikking passive device. The only thing that it can possibly do is extend the single that is present at the output coupling with the least amount of degradation.

 

Really? Before Blue Jeans cable, no one was going out and buying Belden and Canare cable, and boasting about how good they are, godsend, breath of fresh air, etc......? Blue Jeans has enough followers where its OK to admit using them. Notice how no one ever says I bought Belden cable? They bought Blue Jeans cable. Its not a brand, its an image.

 

I've seen others recommend Canare, Belden etc years ago. Even before the advent of Forums (although there was dial up BBS's in the day that preceded internet forums). Also Mogami. Can't forget about them.

 

Also go to Amazon and try and purchase terminated cables from Belden, Liberty, GepCo. Canare is an outlier in this.

 

Terminating cables is not assembling cables. They buy assembled cables and put the connectors on them. There's a big difference. Not only that, how does terminating cables make them honest and transparent? What's your definition of an honest broker? If I bought some entry level AQ or Kimber bulk cables from Cable Company and had them terminate them for me, why would they be any less honest or transparent than Blue Jeans?

 

It's usually the amount of information available on their site. Take a look at the bullshit on AQ's site and then look at BJC. If you can't see the difference.... Well they have a saying at the poker table: "if you can't spot the rube in 5 minutes then it's you".

 

"My 'validated CAT6' cables demonstratively outperform cables costing 28 times more. That's not emotional, just common rational sense."

 

Assuming that's true, I agree"

 

It's true. I have the Fluke certification records to prove it.

 

"Belden, Canare, Mogami, Liberty, GepCo etc.. put a lot of engineering effort into their designs. They throw away more scrap from production in any given month than the boutique outfits sell in a year."

 

I was debating whether I should reply to that one. Why is that relevant? Better yet, how would you even know that? To me, it looks like an emotional response.

 

I used to work at a commercial installation firm. We directly dealt with Belden, Gepco, Liberty, etc because of our volume. Hell, WE probably left more cut on the floor than the boutique firms shipped.

 

Typically about 2 miles of installed cabling every week.

 

My point being they do hardcore engineering and thus prototyping (thus cable on the floor).

[bluesman]

Someone just started a thread that directs you to take a hearing test over the internet. Is it a valid test? I would think you need to have an exact volume setting, along with equipment that is known to have the required fidelity to properly play the test.

There's no way to carry out meaningful, consistent audiometry without a controlled environment and properly calibrated equipment meeting rigorous standards for design, function and consistency. Here's a link to the CDC's guide to audiometric testing and here's one to the ASHA document (that's the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association). These will give you an idea of what's required for medically useful audiometric testing.

 

Having said that, there's some work on web-based screening audiometry (i.e. looking for gross hearing deficiencies) that suggests it's a useful way to monitor known hearing loss for gross changes and may be useful in some kinds of screening. A 2010 study in Otology and Neurotology found a 75% sensitivity for identifying hearing loss - but the 95% confidence interval was 51% to 90%. If 50% (i.e. random chance) falls within the confidence interval for a dichotomous data set (i.e. yes or no - is hearing normal or isn't it), the data are not likely to reflect a real difference between the two groups. A ci from 51 to 90% is pretty weak, and I hope none of us would accept an intervention based on that level of evidence.

[mav52]

As far as I know, Blue Jeans doesn't make cables, they're just a retailer. I suspect they're success is due to emotional reasons as much as anything. You could buy Belden and Canare long before Blue Jeans was in business. I'm not saying their cables are bad, but its clear that their marketing strategy is the key to success. They provide validation and emotional support so audiophiles don't feel bad about buying "cheap" cables. Before anyone gets mad and calls me out in anger over my comments, tell me why on one bought the same exact cables Blue Jeans sells before they went into business? I'll also say it again, but it won't matter. I'm not accusing Blue Jeans of selling bad cables. They look fine and probably work OK.

 

From what I obtained in a email from Blue Jean Cable. They are not a manufacturer, but they do a lot of final assembly from bulk stock and have many cable stock custom manufactured for them by Belden, to Blue Jean Cable design specifications.

[CR250]

All the cabling BJC uses has spec's published for them. You know exactly what you are getting.

 

 

 

 

No, Least Amount of Harm, is not conjecture. A cable is a frikking passive device. The only thing that it can possibly do is extend the single that is present at the output coupling with the least amount of degradation.

 

 

 

I've seen others recommend Canare, Belden etc years ago. Even before the advent of Forums (although there was dial up BBS's in the day that preceded internet forums). Also Mogami. Can't forget about them.

 

Also go to Amazon and try and purchase terminated cables from Belden, Liberty, GepCo. Canare is an outlier in this.

 

 

 

It's usually the amount of information available on their site. Take a look at the bullshit on AQ's site and then look at BJC. If you can't see the difference.... Well they have a saying at the poker table: "if you can't spot the rube in 5 minutes then it's you".

 

 

 

It's true. I have the Fluke certification records to prove it.

 

 

 

I used to work at a commercial installation firm. We directly dealt with Belden, Gepco, Liberty, etc because of our volume. Hell, WE probably left more cut on the floor than the boutique firms shipped.

 

Typically about 2 miles of installed cabling every week.

 

My point being they do hardcore engineering and thus prototyping (thus cable on the floor).

 

There's really no point in continuing because this is all emotional for you. You're one of those people that has an extreme dislike for the cable industry, regardless of whether the cables live up to the claims, or not. You're just picking and choosing what issues that you feel are relevant and won't listen to anything else. There's more to cables than what you consider important. Going over the issues would be useless because you wouldn't listen to reason.

[CR250]

There's no way to carry out meaningful, consistent audiometry without a controlled environment and properly calibrated equipment meeting rigorous standards for design, function and consistency. Here's a link to the CDC's guide to audiometric testing and here's one to the ASHA document (that's the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association). These will give you an idea of what's required for medically useful audiometric testing.

 

Having said that, there's some work on web-based screening audiometry (i.e. looking for gross hearing deficiencies) that suggests it's a useful way to monitor known hearing loss for gross changes and may be useful in some kinds of screening. A 2010 study in Otology and Neurotology found a 75% sensitivity for identifying hearing loss - but the 95% confidence interval was 51% to 90%. If 50% (i.e. random chance) falls within the confidence interval for a dichotomous data set (i.e. yes or no - is hearing normal or isn't it), the data are not likely to reflect a real difference between the two groups. A ci from 51 to 90% is pretty weak, and I hope none of us would accept an intervention based on that level of evidence.

 

Thanks. Great answer.

[CR250]

From what I obtained in a email from Blue Jean Cable. They are not a manufacturer, but they do a lot of final assembly from bulk stock and have many cable stock custom manufactured for them by Belden, to Blue Jean Cable design specifications.

 

Don't read too much into my response. I know they are an honest company and have a good reputation. My point was, people that don't like high end cables, for whatever reason, seem to buy from BJC for emotional reasons in addition to having good cables at a low price. I just see no reason why a company that sells more expensive cables has to be dishonest in some way, just because of price. We all have to make our own decisions. You can spend your money any way you wish, and its no ones business but your own.

[plissken]

There's really no point in continuing because this is all emotional for you. You're one of those people that has an extreme dislike for the cable industry, regardless of whether the cables live up to the claims, or not. You're just picking and choosing what issues that you feel are relevant and won't listen to anything else. There's more to cables than what you consider important. Going over the issues would be useless because you wouldn't listen to reason.

 

Then feel free to trot out some point other than "May be there is something going on that we don't know how to measure" and "I can only turn invisible when no one else is looking".

 

If there is an appreciable difference in audio coming out of a speaker due to a cable swap it's measurable.

 

The real point of not continuing is you only have conjecture to present.

[plissken]

I just see no reason why a company that sells more expensive cables has to be dishonest in some way.

 

They don't have to be. But some CHOOSE to be. AudioQuest/Bill Low are perfect examples.

 

CAT6 cables advertised as CAT7

 

Dielectric Bias Charging

 

Skin effect at audio frequencies

 

Audibility of digital cables

 

Directionality of cables as it pertains to how the copper is drawn (especially egregious in HDMI and Ethernet Cables

 

*Please note I have no post here that ever said that all cables 'sound the same'. If there is a change then there is a way to measure for it. For you to PROVE there is a change when the technical measurements fail (according to you) then you need to go blind and ears only as a calibration measure.

[Sal1950]

Then feel free to trot out some point other than "May be there is something going on that we don't know how to measure" and "I can only turn invisible when no one else is looking".

 

If there is an appreciable difference in audio coming out of a speaker due to a cable swap it's measurable.

 

The real point of not continuing is you only have conjecture to present.

 

LOL, Hey I saw that one when you quoted him. Pay no attention to CR250, he always falls back to calling someone else emotional or some other insult whenever he's lost an argument. I believe it's the pot calling the kettle black. That's why I put him on my ignore list.

Great posts BTW