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Audible difference between analog interconnects


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All this hate directed at John Siau has absolutely nothing to do with any techincal arguments over his designs. It is simply spawned from the fact that John won't talk the subjective party line on cables, DSD, etc. Even to the point of having Jud stoop to writing "people say" "call Benchmark DAC "ear rippers."

Does it so gaul you Jud that the premier subjective audiophile publication Stereophile still rates the DAC-2 as a Class A+ sounding DAC that you quote non-revealed sources as saying negative things?

Might also have something to do with the fact that he is friends with Mark Waldrep and that Mark uses the DAC-2 in his HDA recording studio to preview and also demo his recordings. Mark is another that must be silenced for not talking the same party lines.

You guys are worse than those writing the current political commercials.

Mason Proffit - Two Hangmen

 

It didn't take them long to try him in their court of law

He was guilty then of "Thinking", a crime much worse than all

They sentenced him to die, so his seed of thought can't spread

And infect the little children, that's what the law had said

So the hangin' day came 'round, and he walked up to the noose

I pulled the lever, but before he fell I cut him lose

They called it a conspiracy, and that I had to die

So to close our mouths and kill our minds, they hung us side-by-side

 

 

Eh - bull corn - I said some people describe the sound of a Benchmark DAC as "ear rippers." That was to point out that not everyone likes it, but your assertion about "all this hate" is bull corn. I *own* a Benchmark DAC2, and I did not get a discount when I paid for it.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Please do find at your very earliest convenience (right now would be really good) where I have ever said any such thing. The very worst I have said about the Benchmark DAC is that by all reports it is "excellent." Harsh critique, eh?

 

Now go ahead and find where I say anything different, particularly quoting anonymous sources as you allege, or STFU.

 

It was Paul who used the term ear rippers. Well Paul beat me to it by a moment.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Eh - bull corn - I said some people describe the sound of a Benchmark DAC as "ear rippers." That was to point out that not everyone likes it, but your assertion about "all this hate" is bull corn. I *own* a Benchmark DAC2, and I did not get a discount when I paid for it.

 

-Paul

 

Cool, how does your Benchmark DAC measure??

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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Please do find at your very earliest convenience (right now would be really good) where I have ever said any such thing. The very worst I have said about the Benchmark DAC is that by all reports it is "excellent." Harsh critique, eh?

 

Now go ahead and find where I say anything different, particularly quoting anonymous sources as you allege, or STFU.

 

OPPS, My apology, it was Paul that made that unconfirmed statement in post #328.

As to the rest I still stand behind the reasoning for the attacks on John's technical designs.

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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Sync= Use the computer to provide a clock

 

ASync= No clocking and use the DAC's clock

 

Async doesn't magically reduce jitter. It's about a choice in where you clock from.

 

If your supposition is correct then there would be no Asynch DAC's with Femto or other clocks. Just by virtue of Asynchronous USB you would be good enough.

 

Typo - I typed "async" and the spelling checker magically changed it to "sync." Mansr and others have posted more correct definitions/corrections of the post this is in reply to.

 

But mostly, yes Asynchronous IsoChronous Audio transfers do reduce jitter. no magic about it, just some basic science, hard work, and very clever code.

 

First, USB 2.0 Audio uses three types of transfers over the USB bus . All Audio data is sent by Isochronous transfers. Interrupt transfers are used to exchange information about clock availability. Control transfers are used to do things like set the volume. That is a bit of oversimplification, but accurate as far as it goes.

 

There are three data transfer modes that basically make it possible for the host and client device to agree on the length of a second. Which by the way, is what it is all about in USB data transfers.

 

 

  • In Synchronous Mode, the length of a second is defined by the host, and the client device has to exactly match it.
  • In Asynchronous Mode, the length of a second is defined by the client device, and the host has to match it.
  • In Adaptive mode, the data flow determines the clock.

 

When we say "async" we are talking about isochronous data transfers clocked by the DAC with the data transfers in "ansychronous" mode as defined above. Like ASRCs, this is a method that vastly reduces jitter, and indeed, all current audio applications of "asynch USB" are there to be a low (not no) jitter interface.

 

I would point out to you that I know USB transfers, coding, methods and modes very very well. There are people in this discussion you are arguing with that know it better than I do.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Cool, how does your Benchmark DAC measure?

 

 

Very very well thank you! :) It sounds better than some other DACs that actually measure better though.

 

I admit, to never doing anything like putting One Thousand Feet of CAT5 or CAT6 cable between it and the audio source. Seems utterly silly.

 

By the way, it definitely sounds different with different USB cables. I don't think Benchmark sells one of those... (grin) :)

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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OPPS, My apology, it was Paul that made that unconfirmed statement in post #328.

As to the rest I still stand behind the reasoning for the attacks on John's technical designs.

 

Please most kindly point out *anywhere* where I attacked such designs. The most I have said is that a lot of Siau's bluster has more to do with marketing than technology.

 

That I stand behind, but I still buy his products. (shrug)

 

I do not put money into products I do not like, or think are poorly designed. But then, I don't expect the Benchmark 2 HGR to sound like a Berkeley DAC with a Berkeley USB interface either. Or any of a half dozen other DACs.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Typo - I typed "async" and the spelling checker magically changed it to "sync." Mansr and others have posted more correct definitions/corrections of the post this is in reply to.

 

But mostly, yes Asynchronous IsoChronous Audio transfers do reduce jitter. no magic about it, just some basic science, hard work, and very clever code.

 

First, USB 2.0 Audio uses three types of transfers over the USB bus . All Audio data is sent by Isochronous transfers. Interrupt transfers are used to exchange information about clock availability. Control transfers are used to do things like set the volume. That is a bit of oversimplification, but accurate as far as it goes.

 

There are three data transfer modes that basically make it possible for the host and client device to agree on the length of a second. Which by the way, is what it is all about in USB data transfers.

 

 

  • In Synchronous Mode, the length of a second is defined by the host, and the client device has to exactly match it.
  • In Asynchronous Mode, the length of a second is defined by the client device, and the host has to match it.
  • In Adaptive mode, the data flow determines the clock.

 

When we say "async" we are talking about isochronous data transfers clocked by the DAC with the data transfers in "ansychronous" mode as defined above. Like ASRCs, this is a method that vastly reduces jitter, and indeed, all current audio applications of "asynch USB" are there to be a low (not no) jitter interface.

 

I would point out to you that I know USB transfers, coding, methods and modes very very well. There are people in this discussion you are arguing with that know it better than I do.

 

The point I'm attempting to make is that the issue with Sync mode is the Clock.

 

The point I'm making with Async is that it isn't jitter free or provide jitter immunity for a DAC.

 

Async transfer is on the DAC's clock (schedule). But there is still the possibility of jitter even over Async. It's just one major source has been eliminated.

 

You and others aren't the only ones that understand serial busses.

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OPPS, My apology, it was Paul that made that unconfirmed statement in post #328.

As to the rest I still stand behind the reasoning for the attacks on John's technical designs.

 

Please now show me where I supposedly attacked the technical design of this DAC, in the midst of saying that by all accounts it is excellent.

 

If you mean where I said it was only a mild exaggeration to call its jitter rejection "perfect," then either you have a different definition of attack than the one in the dictionary, or possibly a problem with reading comprehension.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]24768[/ATTACH]

 

Hehehe!

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]24768[/ATTACH]

 

Ah, we could all use a smile. :)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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It was Paul who used the term ear rippers. Well Paul beat me to it by a moment.

 

:)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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That Asynch USB is a jitter free protocol.

 

It's a clock free protocol and it's a fetched protocol. It makes it easier to Clock incoming data. Not that incoming data is jitter free.

 

There is a difference.

 

I have never in my life used the term "jitter free," nor do I think that async USB input or any other measures are capable of making a DAC jitter free. Damned good jitter performance if properly implemented, sure. In fact I poked gentle fun at Benchmark for claiming its ASRC conferred "perfect" jitter immunity.

 

You and some other folks must have a whole different Bizarro World forum that you're reading, because what you claim I supposedly said has appeared nowhere in this thread here on planet Earth.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I have never in my life used the term "jitter free," nor do I think that async USB input or any other measures are capable of making a DAC jitter free. Damned good jitter performance if properly implemented, sure. In fact I poked gentle fun at Benchmark for claiming its ASRC conferred "perfect" jitter immunity.

 

You and some other folks must have a whole different Bizarro World forum that you're reading, because what you claim I supposedly said has appeared nowhere in this thread here on planet Earth.

 

In all fairness, I believe Benchmark manuals refer to 'near perfect jitter immunity', while some of their ads do refer to "jitter immunity". They have at times also explained why they maintain this. The measured jitter is exceptionally low near the limits of the testing gear, and they can find no change in that jitter when jitter is higher or lower at the inputs. Including the already mentioned 1000 feet of cable with 8 nanoseconds of peak jitter. So it would appear they are very close to jitter input not effecting jitter output. They aren't claiming there is zero jitter in the output.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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OPPS, My apology, it was Paul that made that unconfirmed statement in post #328.

As to the rest I still stand behind the reasoning for the attacks on John's technical designs.

 

I must confess that I wasn't expecting your's and other the sceptic/subjectivists' (esldude, plissken) reaction to what looks like a reasonable criticism to Benchmark's D/ACs.

Is it because their products are somehow a flagship to your audio values?

I'm confused...

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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Please most kindly point out *anywhere* where I attacked such designs. The most I have said is that a lot of Siau's bluster has more to do with marketing than technology.

 

That I stand behind, but I still buy his products. (shrug)

 

I do not put money into products I do not like, or think are poorly designed. But then, I don't expect the Benchmark 2 HGR to sound like a Berkeley DAC with a Berkeley USB interface either. Or any of a half dozen other DACs.

 

No you did not, and once again I apologize for mixing a couple lines from your post with the technical attacks of Jud. An old mans brain fade. LOL

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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I must confess that I wasn't expecting your's and other the sceptic/subjectivists' (esldude, plissken) reaction to what looks like a reasonable criticism to Benchmark's D/ACs.

Is it because their products are somehow a flagship to your audio values?

I'm confused...

 

R

R, I see no reason for your confusion, I thought I made my position perfectly clear. I see the criticism of the DAC2 strictly as a veiled attempt to discredit John Siau for his politics. The shoe is on the other foot from your allegation, John won't play ball so attack his design. I got the April Stereophile today and the DAC2 is still a Class A+ rated component along with the $$$ best bang for the money credit.

It is a free market and anyone who believes they can design better sounding products are free to do so.

Good luck

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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No you did not, and once again I apologize for mixing a couple lines from your post with the technical attacks of Jud. An old mans brain fade. LOL

 

I want to point out once again, for the sake of anyone who doesn't want to be bothered reading back in the thread, that I never attacked Benchmark, technically or otherwise.

 

What I did say was that adding DSD capability to their DAC, considering John Siau's well publicized dislike of the format, appears to have been a marketing decision; and that the decision to use both ASRC and async input for the USB port may have been a nod to marketing also. I further said there is absolutely nothing wrong with marketing. Despite plissken's reference to products that sell themselves, I'm not sure that's ever really true.

 

I said the Benchmark's jitter measurements were very nice (an understatement). And finally, I said it was by all reports an excellent DAC.

 

If you're looking in vain through these comments for anything that might be considered an attack, you'd be right.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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In all fairness, I believe Benchmark manuals refer to 'near perfect jitter immunity', while some of their ads do refer to "jitter immunity". They have at times also explained why they maintain this. The measured jitter is exceptionally low near the limits of the testing gear, and they can find no change in that jitter when jitter is higher or lower at the inputs. Including the already mentioned 1000 feet of cable with 8 nanoseconds of peak jitter. So it would appear they are very close to jitter input not effecting jitter output. They aren't claiming there is zero jitter in the output.

 

That's fair. I would still think of some of those statements as being advertising for the product, but as I've said several times now, there's nothing wrong with that.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Hi Jud,

 

Do you think there could be a relation between very high bandwidth amplifier and detecting the effect of IC capacitance?

 

Cheers,

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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Hi Jud,

 

Do you think there could be a relation between very high bandwidth amplifier and detecting the effect of IC capacitance?

 

Cheers,

R

 

Not to be flip, Ricardo, but heck if I know. :) I know way too little about electronics, electrical circuits, etc. (though that's one of the things that's at the top of my list to learn more about when I retire, I hope in just a few years) to answer that.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Not to be flip, Ricardo, but heck if I know. :) I know way too little about electronics, electrical circuits, etc. (though that's one of the things that's at the top of my list to learn more about when I retire, I hope in just a few years) to answer that.

 

Thanks.

I'll wait then. ;)

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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