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Weiss speaker, based on a revolutionary concept


Paul R
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I received this a few days ago, and it looks interesting. Kind of goes against what I understand the theory to be, I think. Actually, my first thought was "room sized headphones?" In any event, I bet it will sound great.

 

If anyone is interested, you can get a significant discount by funding this speaker now, but it is still looking to be an expensive speaker. I don't have the confidence I will like it enough to spend $16K+ on it without hearing it first, even though they are offering an absolute money back guarantee on it. I do like that! :)

 

 

Dear Mr. Raulerson

Dear Weiss - interested person

 

In our High-End HiFi product line we are working on a speaker design which is unique in today's market place.

 

It will be based on a revolutionary concept which brings the listening experience to a new level of realism.

This is not just an incremental, „golden ears only“ change, but a real enhancement which can be heard by all listeners.

 

The concept is proven and is working well. We now are looking for people who are ready to help financing the design work for electronics and speaker parts.

The idea is that you pre-order the speaker and issue an advance payment.

As a compensation you will get a 20% discount on the speaker‘s price and – if you agree - your name will be put on the speaker’s back plate in the „project supporter“ section.

If you do not like the speaker once you hear it, we will refund your advance payment in full.

 

The retail price of the speaker is planned to be in the Swiss Francs 15’000 to 20’000 range for a complete system.

It will be an active speaker, so the price includes amplifiers as well. Your advance payment should be Swiss Francs 8’000 or more.

The release of the speaker is planned this year.

 

Here is a PDF file with some more information on the speaker: http://www.weiss.ch/downloads/news1215e.pdf

 

If you got any feedback for us regarding this project do not hesitate to tell me.

 

If you are interested in participating and / or like to get more information I invite you to answer this email.

 

 

Best Regards,

Daniel Weiss

 

WEISS ENGINEERING LTD. - Professional and High-End Digital Audio Products

Florastrasse 42 8610 Uster Switzerland

phone: +41 44 940 20 06, fax: +41 44 940 22 14

email: [email protected]

web: Weiss Engineering Ltd.

Asia: Untitled Document

Facebook Weiss group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/122655677859487/

 

"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones." John Cage

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Excuse me - you guys are saying that the Weiss speaker is available now?

 

Did you read the post and follow the link, or did I get zapped with a Spam?

 

As far as I can tell, this speaker has not been built yet. Nobody can listen to it.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Excuse me - you guys are saying that the Weiss speaker is available now?

 

Did you read the post and follow the link, or did I get zapped with a Spam?

 

As far as I can tell, this speaker has not been built yet. Nobody can listen to it.

 

I think the second reply is a bot's.

 

What I mean is that PSI makes nice studio speakers that you can buy now without taking any risks such as the A25.

 

I would not part with my money with just the information available on that PDF.

I see nothing particularly groundbreaking about it apart from the bland Ikea-like look of the cabinet prototype.

My opinion might change after listening to it but until then I am sceptic.

Let the companies involved take the risks... Why should we pay for the R&D and either get stuck with a flop or finance what could possibly generate a reasonable amount of profit to others?

 

Linkwitz talks a bit about crosstalk cancellation here (from page 7).

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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Yes, it has always interested me that speaker makers try and cancel crosstalk which makes it more like headphones. Even Carver did this. While headphone makers use crossfeed or more advanced stuff to make headphones sound more like speakers in a room. Smyth Realizer for instance.

 

Now I did hear an excellent setup of the Carver Amazin's with the Carver pre-amp with the crosstalk cancellation. It made regular recordings sound like 60 feet wide. Startling at first, but then just somehow did not sound right. Did not sound of higher fidelity. Did not sound more real. Sounded phoney.

 

Oh well, you could accomplish the same thing with your current speakers. Simply build a panel running from your nose to the rear wall between the speakers. That stops all direct crosstalk.

 

Then there was one of my old favorites. A pair of electrostatic panels (Acoustats at the time) about 18 feet away. They were only augmenting some Stax headphones however. They gave a huge, spacious sound, and real bass quality that the Stax alone lacked. They also gave an envelopment better than surround sound on good recordings.

 

Sometimes just a good pair of speakers and leave well enough alone is really well enough.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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The letter includes a link to testimonials on the crossfeed cancellation process for speakers

 

BACCH - The Reactions - MASIS Audio

 

I'm not that really convinced by this, as I don't consider crossfeed as a nuisance.

 

I mostly listen to jazz recordings, where the placement of instruments on the recording has nothing to do with the placement in the studio, except for the few rare binaural recordings on Chesky. It's a non-issue for this type of music.

 

With classical recordings it's different, but there too I don't need perfect instrument placement. It's not important compared to other factors of good sound.

Claude

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The letter includes a link to testimonials on the crossfeed cancellation process for speakers

 

BACCH - The Reactions - MASIS Audio

 

Testimonials of the "usual suspects".

 

I'm not that really convinced by this, as I don't consider crossfeed as a nuisance.

 

I mostly listen to jazz recordings, where the placement of instruments on the recording has nothing to do with the placement in the studio, except for the few rare binaural recordings on Chesky. It's a non-issue for this type of music.

 

With classical recordings it's different, but there too I don't need perfect instrument placement. It's not important compared to other factors of good sound.

 

This is what I have been referring to in another topic regarding the importance of the "soundstage" effect.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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This is what I have been referring to in another topic regarding the importance of the "soundstage" effect.

 

R

 

LOL! When I saw CatManDo's post this morning, you were the first person I thought of. :)

 

Obviously, to some folks, soundstage and placement isn't as important as other things. I think that especially in classical music, it is very important. But there is room enough for everyone to disagree and enjoy the music their own way. :)

 

I have a feeling that this speaker is all about soundstage and imaging myself. One reason it caught my attention when it appeared in my mailbox.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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<snip>

Oh well, you could accomplish the same thing with your current speakers. Simply build a panel running from your nose to the rear wall between the speakers. That stops all direct crosstalk.

<snip>

Sometimes just a good pair of speakers and leave well enough alone is really well enough.

 

Some years ago, I actually built a full height panel from the listening position all the way to the centerline between my Martin Logan SL3s to test the cross talk elimination (or at least reduction) theory. Didn't like the resulting sound at all.

For my system details, please see my profile. Thank you.

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Speakers that work like headphones seems like an undesirable design goal.

 

Lepa compared emotional response and overall quality with listeners hearing headphone playback, simulated binaural loudspeakers and simulated binaural live music all with headphones. Loudspeakers and live music deliver more emotional content and better sound quality due to spatialization.

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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Looks like a beam-forming speaker to me. For example Yamaha has been making sound bars based on the same principle...

 

In high-end category, this is probably similar, but a bit more hard-core:

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/collection/speakers/beolab-90

 

(if you'd ask me, I'd buy the B&O)

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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I don't think the Beolab is designed to cancel R/L crosstalk. The Beolab is designed to control directivity which is a really smart idea. I would love to hear the Beolab.

 

Looks like a beam-forming speaker to me. For example Yamaha has been making sound bars based on the same principle...

 

In high-end category, this is probably similar, but a bit more hard-core:

BeoLab 90 - Bang & Olufsen

 

(if you'd ask me, I'd buy the B&O)

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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I don't think the Beolab is designed to cancel R/L crosstalk. The Beolab is designed to control directivity which is a really smart idea. I would love to hear the Beolab.

 

More directive the speaker, less cross talk there is. The arrangement they have allows it to radiate less towards center line and more towards sides.

 

Also larger planar speakers like electrostatics and magnetostats (Magnepan) become much more directive as function of frequency than ordinary boxed loudspeakers... Usually this is used more to control floor and ceiling reflection and less to the sides, which is the reason for taller and narrower designs (for example compared to old Quad electrostats which were almost rectangular).

 

While for example Yamaha sound bars play center channel towards center line, L/R more like 30 degree away from center and rear channels closer to 60 degree out (utilizing side wall reflections for bouncing rear channels).

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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More directive the speaker, less cross talk there is. The arrangement they have allows it to radiate less towards center line and more towards sides.
Nope. The arrangement they have allows it to radiate more towards the center line and less towards the sides depending on frequency in order to make the radiation pattern constant.

 

Also larger planar speakers like electrostatics and magnetostats (Magnepan) become much more directive as function of frequency than ordinary boxed loudspeakers... Usually this is used more to control floor and ceiling reflection and less to the sides, which is the reason for taller and narrower designs (for example compared to old Quad electrostats which were almost rectangular).
And the Beolab 90 is designed to have constant (but adjustable) directivity.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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The Weiss speaker looks much more like a BACCH speaker system which employs active crosstalk cancellation. That's why Weiss recommends records which embed the HRTF (binaural recordings). Crosstalk cancellation techniques are much more mathematically complex than narrowing the speaker's directivity.

This study talks about three different approaches to CTC.

 

If one had a lot of binaural recordings, it could be a really fun speaker. But there are very few such recordings available.

 

 

 

 

 

More directive the speaker, less cross talk there is. The arrangement they have allows it to radiate less towards center line and more towards sides.

 

Also larger planar speakers like electrostatics and magnetostats (Magnepan) become much more directive as function of frequency than ordinary boxed loudspeakers... Usually this is used more to control floor and ceiling reflection and less to the sides, which is the reason for taller and narrower designs (for example compared to old Quad electrostats which were almost rectangular).

 

While for example Yamaha sound bars play center channel towards center line, L/R more like 30 degree away from center and rear channels closer to 60 degree out (utilizing side wall reflections for bouncing rear channels).

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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The Weiss speaker looks much more like a BACCH speaker system which employs active crosstalk cancellation.

 

I'm also talking about active directivity control, not anything passive.

 

Crosstalk cancellation techniques are much more mathematically complex than narrowing the speaker's directivity.

 

Depends on how you do the narrowing/controlling of speaker's directivity. If you do it the way done in B&O or Yamaha sound bars, then I'd say it is more complex than just crosstalk cancellation.

 

With active beamforming you can play multiple independent music streams to different directions simultaneously from the same loudspeaker array. I've been doing this a lot on sonar systems (underwater acoustics), but not so much in air. This works the same way on both sending and receiving, so you can implement it with a speaker array or microphone array. For a sonar array it is not unusual to have 128 hydrophones/transducers so you perform DSP for 128 channels.

 

I have all the necessary code for performing advanced focused beam beamforming for various array architectures (line array, plane, arc, sphere, etc) so I could add that functionality into HQPlayer too. Performing it for 64 channels per side (128 channels total) for PCM wouldn't be much of a problem with my new GPU offload. Building a speaker with 64 speaker elements would be much more work... :) Array of 8 or 16 speaker elements wouldn't be that hard and would be easy to process and would be doable also for DSD.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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That would be interesting if stand alone software could offer genuine CTC. This way folks wouldn't need to spend crazy money on the BACCH SSP box and could use their own speakers.

 

I'm also talking about active directivity control, not anything passive.

 

 

 

Depends on how you do the narrowing/controlling of speaker's directivity. If you do it the way done in B&O or Yamaha sound bars, then I'd say it is more complex than just crosstalk cancellation.

 

With active beamforming you can play multiple independent music streams to different directions simultaneously from the same loudspeaker array. I've been doing this a lot on sonar systems (underwater acoustics), but not so much in air. This works the same way on both sending and receiving, so you can implement it with a speaker array or microphone array. For a sonar array it is not unusual to have 128 hydrophones/transducers so you perform DSP for 128 channels.

 

I have all the necessary code for performing advanced focused beam beamforming for various array architectures (line array, plane, arc, sphere, etc) so I could add that functionality into HQPlayer too. Performing it for 64 channels per side (128 channels total) for PCM wouldn't be much of a problem with my new GPU offload. Building a speaker with 64 speaker elements would be much more work... :) Array of 8 or 16 speaker elements wouldn't be that hard and would be easy to process and would be doable also for DSD.

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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That would be interesting if stand alone software could offer genuine CTC. This way folks wouldn't need to spend crazy money on the BACCH SSP box and could use their own speakers.

 

Possibly, but I don't think that's necessarily good approach, it works only for single listening spot and mainly for the calibrated person. The beamforming approach is better since it allows wider listening spot or optimized listening for multiple persons simultaneously. And even realtime tracking of listeners location if he decides to move around. But you'll need a speaker array built for the purpose (like B&O or those sound bars). The Weiss speaker looks like a horizontal speaker array (multiple midrange/tweeters in horizontal line arrangement).

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Depends on how you do the narrowing/controlling of speaker's directivity. If you do it the way done in B&O or Yamaha sound bars, then I'd say it is more complex than just crosstalk cancellation.
Exactly. In fact, there is no cross-talk cancellation process inherent in the B&O since each speaker/channel is processed independently. Any crosstalk cancellation effect is an acoustical consequence of the beam control.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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