New Rasberry Pi Announced. Is this news?

[SimoneF]

WHY do you think that the shared bus between and usb should be the problem?

Per absurd try to think to a 32bit/384khz file. So it needs a bandwith of 32*384*2= 24576. Rounded up 25mbps. Now 25mbps from the nas through ethernet + 25mbps out from the usb for the dac = 50mbps.

Well the bus speed of the rpi 2 is 480mbps. Playing a 32/384 you are using 1/20 of the bus speed.

 

Come on.

 

 

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[Pepsican]

WHY do you think that the shared bus between and usb should be the problem?

Per absurd try to think to a 32bit/384khz file. So it needs a bandwith of 32*384*2= 24576. Rounded up 25mbps. Now 25mbps from the nas through ethernet + 25mbps out from the usb for the dac = 50mbps.

Well the bus speed of the rpi 2 is 480mbps. Playing a 32/384 you are using 1/20 of the bus speed.

 

Come on.

 

 

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It's not bandwidth alone but a controller having to manage two streams in different directions. Also, the 480 is theoretical bandwidth. Cut that in half or more for its maximum, as you lose bandwidth to communication overheads. Then, that bandwidth needs to be shared over 5 or 6 ports (4 usb, one network, and i think a micro USB port or SD card port).

 

Depending on how the controller balances things and how busy the device is, you could run out of steam.

[Richard Dale]

It's not bandwidth alone but a controller having to manage two streams in different directions. Also, the 480 is theoretical bandwidth. Cut that in half or more for its maximum, as you lose bandwidth to communication overheads. Then, that bandwidth needs to be shared over 5 or 6 ports (4 usb, one network, and i think a micro USB port or SD card port).

 

Depending on how the controller balances things and how busy the device is, you could run out of steam.

 

I've got two Raspberry Pi2s and they work just fine on my LAN with up to 24/192 resolution AIFF music from a disk NFS mounted on a BeagleBone Black. I don't have any 24/384 khz music, and I don't regard that as something I need in the real world at present. The theoretical discussion is still interesting, but I feel the fact that I have Raspberry Pis in production use and working perfectly means the theoretical discussion should be about why a Pi actually works, rather that trying to prove it can't work as a practical music server.

 

I tried Raspberry Pi 1s a while ago and they didn't work with async USB because of the buggy USB software. The USB bugs seem to be fixed in the current Raspbian software, but I would still expect a Raspberry Pi 2 to be faster than a Pi 1 at networking and USB because it has a better CPU.

[master]

Without optimization the Pi can't play high resolution without serious dropouts because music coming in on Ethernet is also going out on the same chip to the USB port. Some of the audio specific distributions have optimized for this issue, but most distributions haven't.

 

Just wondering how much b/w does high res music need?

 

4K video needs 25-30 mbps. The Pi 2 gives me around 60 mbps via ethernet. I've tested with external HDD via USB and also USB pen drive. Given it does not do USB 3.0, USB 2.0 is still fast enough. Anyways it gives consistently around 60 mbps for transfers both ways. Maybe my equipment is a bottleneck, others might even be getting the slated 100 mbps. Yet another option is to use a USB gigabit adapter like this one - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FFJ0RKE/. Easily will do over 200 mbps. Pretty much enough b/w for any high res files I'd think.

 

I use a Pi myself, but I run MinimServer and wirelessly stream it to CCA > DAC. I don't use USB and granted my content is only FLAC rips (a few are 24/96) and nothing high res, but I'm still not sold that the Pi does not have enough b/w for high res music. It will even do 4K video with regards to the b/w, so why not audio?

[SimoneF]

Again , I repeat, the pi 2 is not the bottleneck.

 

 

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[Pepsican]

I've got two Raspberry Pi2s and they work just fine on my LAN with up to 24/192 resolution AIFF music from a disk NFS mounted on a BeagleBone Black. I don't have any 24/384 khz music, and I don't regard that as something I need in the real world at present. The theoretical discussion is still interesting, but I feel the fact that I have Raspberry Pis in production use and working perfectly means the theoretical discussion should be about why a Pi actually works, rather that trying to prove it can't work as a practical music server.

 

I tried Raspberry Pi 1s a while ago and they didn't work with async USB because of the buggy USB software. The USB bugs seem to be fixed in the current Raspbian software, but I would still expect a Raspberry Pi 2 to be faster than a Pi 1 at networking and USB because it has a better CPU.

 

Just to be clear: i never said this does not work on a Pi. I merely said that a Pi is more prone to drop outs due to its architecture, comparee to an Odroid.

[Richard Dale]

Just to be clear: i never said this does not work on a Pi. I merely said that a Pi is more prone to drop outs due to its architecture, comparee to an Odroid.

 

But I'm saying with my music collection of up to 24/192 AIFF resolution, I *never* get any drop outs using Raspberry Pi 2s. It can't be 'more prone to drop outs' if they never occur with my pretty normal personal use case. It may well be possible that the Odroid works better with 24/384 audio and that would be a problem for a Raspberry Pi, I don't know, but that simply isn't relevant to nearly all users of music servers.

[mfsoa]

I've been playing w/ Moode and yesterday set up HQPlayer using the Pi as an NAA. No problem streaming 2x DSD to the Pi then to the dac this way. But I do miss the Squeezebox-like functionality of when I had piCorePlayer on the Pi. What to do...hmm...guess I'll just have to get a second Pi, USB only. I'll use my current one (w/ Digi+) for the piCorePlayer to allow Tidal and internet radio via spdif into one dac input and use the new Pi via USB for HQPlayer into another dac input. Too fun! But jeez its gonna cost me like $50.

 

-Mike

[The Computer Audiophile]

It has zero to do with bandwidth.

[master]

It has zero to do with bandwidth.

 

Cannot be the ARM chip either. Most of the streamers/servers from Auralic, Aurender, Sonore, etc. have similar specs. Ditto for most NAS boxes.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Cannot be the ARM chip either. Most of the streamers/servers from Auralic, Aurender, Sonore, etc. have similar specs. Ditto for most NAS boxes.

It's a combination of software and the SMSC LAN9514 USB / Ethernet chip.

[SimoneF]

Third time that i repeat it. It'not a hardware problem.

With a rpi2 i play 24/384, dsd 128, dsd256 with any kind of problem. Never a drop out, never a glitch.

The hardware could be not enough if you do some conversion; but with a normal bit perfect streaming there isn't any hardware bottleneck.

 

 

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[The Computer Audiophile]

Third time that i repeat it. It'not a hardware problem.

With a rpi2 i play 24/384, dsd 128, dsd256 with any kind of problem. Never a drop out, never a glitch.

The hardware could be not enough if you do some conversion; but with a normal bit perfect streaming there isn't any hardware bottleneck.

 

 

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Its not as absolute as you say repeatedly. With separate USB and Ethernet chips the problem wouldn't exist and with special software configuration the problem doesn't exist. It's a combo.

[SimoneF]

I use eth and usb and i don't have any problem. My rpi2 is better them yours? Lol. I don't think so

 

 

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[The Computer Audiophile]

I use eth and usb and i don't have any problem. My rpi2 is better them yours? Lol. I don't think so

 

 

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The software (distrobution) you are using is making it work, unlike the standard Pi installs that everyone on the Pi forum complains about.

 

Install the standard Pi Debian or Raspbian distrobution and see how well it works :~)

[SimoneF]

Why shall i install a distro that i use for 10%.

I tried runeaudio, volumio, moodaudio.

Using a rpi2 with 1usb hard drive with music, 1usb dac, 1usb wifi dongle/1 eth.

So the same bus has to manage 3 connections at the same time.

I play dsd 2x, 24/96, DXD with any problem also using the web interface in the same time.

So the options Are two:

1- my rpi is better than yours

2- it is not a hardware problem. Why using a normal debian distro if there Are music distro for high quality streaming? WE Are on computeraudiophile so i think it's quite normal to use a audio optimized distro if you use a rpi to stream high quality music. Isn't it?

 

 

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[The Computer Audiophile]

Why shall i install a distro that i use for 10%.

I tried runeaudio, volumio, moodaudio.

Using a rpi2 with 1usb hard drive with music, 1usb dac, 1usb wifi dongle/1 eth.

So the same bus has to manage 3 connections at the same time.

I play dsd 2x, 24/96, DXD with any problem also using the web interface in the same time.

So the options Are two:

1- my rpi is better than yours

2- it is not a hardware problem. Why using a normal debian distro if there Are music distro for high quality streaming? WE Are on computeraudiophile so i think it's quite normal to use a audio optimized distro if you use a rpi to stream high quality music. Isn't it?

 

 

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Ok fine the Pi is perfect :~)

 

Back before there were software workarounds for a flawed but inexpensive way to group USB and Ethernet on the same chip, the Pi was unusable for high resolution. I guess I'm lost as to why we are arguing.

 

If the Pi works for people that's great. All of mine work as well as long as the workarounds are in place.

[audi0nick128]

I've been playing w/ Moode and yesterday set up HQPlayer using the Pi as an NAA. No problem streaming 2x DSD to the Pi then to the dac this way. But I do miss the Squeezebox-like functionality of when I had piCorePlayer on the Pi. What to do...hmm...guess I'll just have to get a second Pi, USB only. I'll use my current one (w/ Digi+) for the piCorePlayer to allow Tidal and internet radio via spdif into one dac input and use the new Pi via USB for HQPlayer into another dac input. Too fun! But jeez its gonna cost me like $50.

 

-Mike

 

Hey there I am new here and I want to build my first pi music server around a chord mojo.

I want to use this power supply Tomanek - profesjonalne zasilacze do efektw gitarowych i przetwornikw dwiku

My plan is to build the Pi and the mojo inside the power supply case.

I am very interested in HQ player as playing engine.

Initially I was thinking of Music Player Daemon.

How userfriendly is Mood wit HQ Player. Can I get a SD with this pre-installed?

Cheers

[Pepsican]

Hey there I am new here and I want to build my first pi music server around a chord mojo.

I want to use this power supply Tomanek - profesjonalne zasilacze do efektw gitarowych i przetwornikw dwiku

My plan is to build the Pi and the mojo inside the power supply case.

I am very interested in HQ player as playing engine.

Initially I was thinking of Music Player Daemon.

How userfriendly is Mood wit HQ Player. Can I get a SD with this pre-installed?

Cheers

 

I think you are mixing things up. First, I'd advice you to get your basic set up working (the Pi and the DAC). Then start worrying about power supplies and the rest.

 

Also, I would not build the mojo and Pi inside the casing of the power supply for two reasons. The first one is that you'd want to keep the circuits of the Pi and the DAC as far away as possible from the heat, electronic noise, interference and magnetic field of the transformer in the supply. Secondly, customising the box will probably void any warranty.

 

In terms of the player software, the following. First, you have a couple of freeware options that are purpose written and optimised for the Pi (RuneAudio, Volumio come to mind). These players are all based on a stripped down Linux with MPD. The nice thing about MPD is that you don't need to rely on things like DLNA or uPnP. A network share with a drive is all you need.

 

HQ Player is a different beast. This software splits the task of generation and streaming. You need a powerful PC for the generation part (things like upsampling, DSP algorythms etc) and you'd use a low powered, optimised device (referred to as a NAA) to stream the signal over from the PC to the DAC. You can use a Pi for this NAA role.

 

In terms of your final question, best to check with Signalyst themselves.

[audi0nick128]

Hey pepsican,

Thanks so far, you cleared things up for me a bit. Especially the HQ player part.

I plan to use my streamer at my workplace during summer. .. So I will only have mobile Internet and plan to keep things simple as possible.

I read somewhere that it's possible to build a Raspberry Pi Streamer, with a touchscreen and a simple UI. So a not headless streamer? Sorry for all the noob questions but I am new to this and English isn't my first language..

Otherwise I will go the MPD way...

One more thing the power subly us custom made in Poland and goes for 60euro...maybe the designer can inform me on the problems you talked about... And maybe present a solution.

Cheers

[audi0nick128]

Oh you said it...with MPD a shared network is all I need...

I will ask further questions when I start the building process.

That way it's easier for all of us

[mjm6]

Ok fine the Pi is perfect :~)

 

Back before there were software workarounds for a flawed but inexpensive way to group USB and Ethernet on the same chip, the Pi was unusable for high resolution. I guess I'm lost as to why we are arguing.

 

If the Pi works for people that's great. All of mine work as well as long as the workarounds are in place.

 

Chris, I missed this post of yours until today, or I would have asked you about it earlier...

 

I guess I don't understand what you position is here. You are talking about 'workarounds' as if they are functionally deficient, but is that the case? I have a RPi2 running 24/192 perfectly, and I believe it sounds better than a CAPSv2 machine I had in the system.

 

Does this mean that it is the pinnacle of audio performance? No, I'm sure it isn't but it is a high standard to achieve, and at an astonishingly low price.

 

So you are claiming that the RPi is flawed, but I would like to see the information that you may be able to provide to support this. It may not be the most computationally elegant way to solve the I/O problem, but if there is no functional penalty, then I believe you are making a distinction without a difference.

 

Maybe you should consider the RPi again and disregard what you know about how they are designed?

 

 

---M

[BobSherman]

Chris, I missed this post of yours until today, or I would have asked you about it earlier...

 

I guess I don't understand what you position is here. You are talking about 'workarounds' as if they are functionally deficient, but is that the case? I have a RPi2 running 24/192 perfectly, and I believe it sounds better than a CAPSv2 machine I had in the system.

 

Does this mean that it is the pinnacle of audio performance? No, I'm sure it isn't but it is a high standard to achieve, and at an astonishingly low price.

 

So you are claiming that the RPi is flawed, but I would like to see the information that you may be able to provide to support this. It may not be the most computationally elegant way to solve the I/O problem, but if there is no functional penalty, then I believe you are making a distinction without a difference.

 

Maybe you should consider the RPi again and disregard what you know about how they are designed?

 

 

---M

I really find all this pushback rather confusing. What Chris said is so correct and pretty simple actually. You do not want to share the ethernet port with the USB port with a raspberry pi running a USB DAC. It is just wrong on every level. As Chris explains it does work now because the software developers took this flaw into consideration created a work around, but it is not really a good idea. When dealing with music, there is timing involved adding extra wait states is not an ideal situation. Yes it does work doesn't sound bad , but this does not make it a great idea.

 

A much better idea is to use something like the hi-fi Berry digi+ which uses I2S and then run the SPDIF to your DAC. This removes the issue of the shared USB bus. This configuration actually sounds very good especially if you power it through the P3 pins of the Digi+ and use a linear supply. Bryston is coming out with a commercial product using a Pi and a custom hi-fi Digi+.

 

This discussion is not just limited to the raspberry pi.You also would not want to use the same USB bus on any computer for say a hard drive storing your music and your DAC. This is just a bad idea, and there is no valid reason to ever do this. That is why the comments were made. There are small systems that do not share the USB bus. The Ordroid is one the Cubox is another. I hope this helps.

 

Regards

Bob

[master]

I really find all this pushback rather confusing. What Chris said is so correct and pretty simple actually. You do not want to share the ethernet port with the USB port with a raspberry pi running a USB DAC. It is just wrong on every level. As Chris explains it does work now because the software developers took this flaw into consideration created a work around, but it is not really a good idea. When dealing with music, there is timing involved adding extra wait states is not an ideal situation. Yes it does work doesn't sound bad , but this does not make it a great idea.

 

USB itself (shared or not) is bad/wrong on so many levels. I've seen enough folks using $2000 to $7000 DACs (including a Lampi) and then having that improved with a $200 USB Regen.

 

Simply put this limitation of using USB extends to everything... its not a limitation of the Pi. Sure the shared bus may add to it, but how wrong is a little more wrong when you have started with a wrong in the first place.

 

You will be hard pressed to find anything USB that's not improved with a Regen or Berkeley Alpha USB. That pretty much puts anything USB in the doghouse. In other words "your words" everything is a workaround and as such a bad thing with USB.

 

Why single out the Pi?

 

PS - Unless its all snake oil being sold in the name/tag of "audiophile".

 

A much better idea is to use something like the hi-fi Berry digi+ which uses I2S and then run the SPDIF to your DAC. This removes the issue of the shared USB bus. This configuration actually sounds very good especially if you power it through the P3 pins of the Digi+ and use a linear supply. Bryston is coming out with a commercial product using a Pi and a custom hi-fi Digi+.

 

There are a myriad of ways to use the Pi and yes for audio. I've never used optical or USB. From day 1 its been wireless and MinimServer or DLNA on the likes of Moode. And yes it kills anything PC, laptop, etc. and including $2000-$3000 PC builds. I hate to admit it... my i7 left in the dust, but that's exactly what happened.

 

Apart from Toslink and wireless, I'll be plugging the Pi into the NAS (ethernet via router)... that remains to be tested. Unlikely though I'll go back to anything after having used MinimServer + MinimStreamer + BubbleUPnP Server + BubbleUPnP Control Point.

 

This discussion is not just limited to the raspberry pi.You also would not want to use the same USB bus on any computer for say a hard drive storing your music and your DAC. This is just a bad idea, and there is no valid reason to ever do this. That is why the comments were made. There are small systems that do not share the USB bus. The Ordroid is one the Cubox is another. I hope this helps.

 

Actually this discussion is limited to the Pi and its limitations. Sad but true. Let's pick on the little guy.

[BobSherman]

USB itself (shared or not) is bad/wrong on so many levels. I've seen enough folks using $2000 to $7000 DACs (including a Lampi) and then having that improved with a $200 USB Regen.

 

Simply put this limitation of using USB extends to everything... its not a limitation of the Pi. Sure the shared bus may add to it, but how wrong is a little more wrong when you have started with a wrong in the first place.

 

You will be hard pressed to find anything USB that's not improved with a Regen or Berkeley Alpha USB. That pretty much puts anything USB in the doghouse. In other words "your words" everything is a workaround and as such a bad thing with USB.

 

Why single out the Pi?

 

PS - Unless its all snake oil being sold in the name/tag of "audiophile".

 

 

 

There are a myriad of ways to use the Pi and yes for audio. I've never used optical or USB. From day 1 its been wireless and MinimServer or DLNA on the likes of Moode. And yes it kills anything PC, laptop, etc. and including $2000-$3000 PC builds. I hate to admit it... my i7 left in the dust, but that's exactly what happened.

 

Apart from Toslink and wireless, I'll be plugging the Pi into the NAS (ethernet via router)... that remains to be tested. Unlikely though I'll go back to anything after having used MinimServer + MinimStreamer + BubbleUPnP Server + BubbleUPnP Control Point.

 

 

 

Actually this discussion is limited to the Pi and its limitations. Sad but true. Let's pick on the little guy.

You perspective on USB is held by a few, but USB is still a standard and does work well. When something comes along that is truly better and can be easily implemented by all... We will see...Until then... Most people will be using USB.

 

BTW... You seemed to have missed something in your comments. What DAC are you using and how is it hooked up to a Pi?