PlayClassics Truthful Recording Technology v1.1

[Guidof]

Hello Mario:

 

Please send me the code for the Iberia 1.1.

 

Thank you.

 

Guido F.

[odelay]

Well, bugger me!

I didn't hear that AT ALL!

... until listening now with iZotope upsampling switched off in A+. Now it is hard to miss. I'll have to reassess my iZotope settings now. Hmm...

 

Good luck Mario. I'm keen to hear calibration 1.2... when you figure that one out [emoji846]

[PhilR]

Code please, would like to hear this!

[Mario Martinez]

I have just finished uploading the new files. These would be version 1.1a.

 

This time I have left the gain untouched so you can easily compare v1.1a vs v1.0. I have re-sent the codes to everyone on this thread. (I hope I did not miss anyone).

 

I have also sent you a "Version Comparison" sample (about 1 minute) that has been process with both calibrations.

 

Thanks for your patience

[Jud]

Hi Mario -

 

I have the original versions of the Albéniz Iberia and the Debussy Préludes, and would very much appreciate the codes for the 1.1a versions.

[odelay]

Thanks for the updated files, Mario :-)

 

To my ears, they sound significantly better with the reduction of room resonance. I'm still hearing a little more (resonance) than I want. However, my cut-off frequency may be a little off...

[goldsdad]

I'm getting through now.

 

And now I'm not.

 

Today, the same problem with losing access to playclassics.com. The connection to playclassics server is lost during download of files, then I am unable to connect to playclassics.com with either my Mac or PC connected to the same router. However, I can browse the site via the ixquick proxy.

[francisleung]

Track 3 of the Iberia album is the one I have been receiving all along, not one of those "broken" tracks.

The 1.1a version has the piano sound duller or mellower than the pre version track, more recessed, even though I only reduced the gain from -17 for the pre version to -21 for the 1.1a.

I still prefer the pre version sound, livelier, crispier. Perhaps more to do with my personal taste, I don't know. I listen to Steinway grand every now and then in concerts at first or second row seats.

[odelay]

Interesting take Francis.

 

Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by 'livelier'?

 

Are you saying you like that you prefer hearing all the room resonance?

 

Or is it something else? (Which may or may not be a side-effect)

[Mario Martinez]

Track 3 of the Iberia album is the one I have been receiving all along, not one of those "broken" tracks.

The 1.1a version has the piano sound duller or mellower than the pre version track, more recessed, even though I only reduced the gain from -17 for the pre version to -21 for the 1.1a.

I still prefer the pre version sound, livelier, crispier. Perhaps more to do with my personal taste, I don't know. I listen to Steinway grand every now and then in concerts at first or second row seats.

 

Both versions have the same gain:

This time I have left the gain untouched so you can easily compare v1.1a vs v1.0.

 

You said you are listening to v1.0 at -17 and v1.1a at -21. That means you are listening to v1.1a 4dB lower than you should. That alone should explain everything.

 

Please play them back at the same level so you can compare them on an equal footing

[francisleung]

Both versions have the same gain:

 

 

You said you are listening to v1.0 at -17 and v1.1a at -21. That means you are listening to v1.1a 4dB lower than you should. That alone should explain everything.

 

Please play them back at the same level so you can compare them on an equal footing

 

Mario,

Sorry I did not make myself clearly enough.

By pre-version, I meant the track prior to the adjustment you made to reduce the resonance and then you named the adjusted track "version" 1.1. The pre version track was the one I compared with version 1.1 in post 29 above. Version 1.1 was boosted by 6db and the gain of 1.1a was the same as 1.1. So the pre version track I prefer was the old one that was named Demo4 I think. I am not too sure of the exact name because in playlist I changed Demo4 to read Iberia.

[francisleung]

Hi Odelay

By livelier I meant vivid, moving, emotionally invoking, forward with sound being projected towards the listener. Some people use the word "musical" which I think is only attributable to the artist or the performance and not to the sound being reproduced by an audio system.

 

By the way I have also finished listening to the tenor track Ideale. Version 1.1a is duller and more recessed than version 1.1, and in this case both versions have the same gain.

[Mario Martinez]

Mario,

Sorry I did not make myself clearly enough.

By pre-version, I meant the track prior to the adjustment you made to reduce the resonance and then you named the adjusted track "version" 1.1. The pre version track was the one I compared with version 1.1 in post 29 above. Version 1.1 was boosted by 6db and the gain of 1.1a was the same as 1.1. So the pre version track I prefer was the old one that was named Demo5 I think. I am not too sure of the exact name because in playlist I changed Demo5 to read Iberia.

 

Hi Francis,

 

v1.1a does not have the same gain as v1.1. It has the same gain as v1.0

 

Here is an explanation of the three versions we gave so far:

 

Version 1.0: this is the version we gave away on the first thread: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/playclassics-master-file-giveaway-computer-audiophile-members-26426/

 

Version 1.1: this version was 6dB louder than v1.0. All the files (with no exception) of this version were broken. This is a faulty version and all files should be trashed.

 

Version 1.1a: this version has the same exact gain as version 1.0 (not v1.1)

 

You should only have two versions: v1.0 and v1.1a

 

These two versions have the same gain, so you should play them at the same volume to compare them properly.

[Mario Martinez]

Hi Odelay

By livelier I meant vivid, moving, emotionally invoking, forward with sound being projected towards the listener. Some people use the word "musical" which I think is only attributable to the artist or the performance and not to the sound being reproduced by an audio system.

 

By the way I have also finished listening to the tenor track Ideale. Version 1.1a is duller and more recessed than version 1.1, and in this case both versions have the same gain.

 

 

Please see my previous post.

[francisleung]

Hi Odelay,

I missed out addressing the point you mentioned about resonance. I did not hear the acoustics of the hall or the resonance you mentioned. Don't know whether it is my personal hearing handicap, my audio system or both.

For some other recordings, I am able to hear the hall:

For example, some 2L and RR recordings as well as old ones such as Bela Fonte at Carnegie Hall.

With the organ and harmonica track 2L-077, my listening room is filled with sound like a chapel. In the Matilda track, the audience applause comes from both side walls, right up to the ceiling, mimicking the audience sitting in the 4 storey balconies of the Carnegie Hall.

[odelay]

Re: Francis

I certainly wasn't questioning your rig :-)

 

I mentioned tweaking my cut-off frequency earlier. I meant to say 'per-ringing'. Oops. My bad.

 

With Orr-ringing very low, I could not hear all the distortion in v1.1. Equally, room resonance is greatly reduced. Tuning my iZotope settings using v1.1b, I'm liking what I'm hearing. Good ambience/decay/room resonance, without it muddying up the transients too much on the faster/busier passages.

 

Btw - big fan of 2L. I've been using their Nordic Sound! demo album as a reference or years. My rig had changed, but that's been one constant. My rig and or ears aren't up to your level Francis - never remember hearing reverb so clearly up the walls. Sounds awesome! :-)

[Mario Martinez]

Thanks for the updated files, Mario :-)

 

To my ears, they sound significantly better with the reduction of room resonance. I'm still hearing a little more (resonance) than I want. However, my cut-off frequency may be a little off...

 

Let me explain what we are doing

 

By "room resonances" I mean "room modes". "Room modes" cause "standing waves". "Standing waves" alter the loudness of a particular frequency on a particular spot of the hall. You can not completely eliminate "room modes" but you can control them. So here is what we did:

 

We built the acoustics of our hall to minimize the effect of these room modes. Then we calibrated our recording chain to completely eliminate them. This way have a fixed recording setup with a flat frequency response. So when you play an instrument on the stage, the recording has a tone that is true to the instruments across all frequencies because we took care of these standing waves. That is why we do not need to mix or master anything because once you take care of these "room resonances" there is nothing to fix.

 

All we did was cancel the effect of a standing wave that was altering the frequency spectrum at 95Hz. If you listen to the Version comparison demo you will hear the difference on the very low notes of the left hand.

[odelay]

Thanks for clarifying that (again!) Mario :-)

 

While understood it when you first described it, I realise I was conflating the room mode distortion with the natural reverb from the acoustic space!!!

[francisleung]

Hi Mario,

I must say I wrongly assumed versions 1.1 and 1.1a both to have the same gain. As 1.1 was to weed out a low frequency resonance and by so doing, a 6db gain was possible to be applied to the track/album. However 1.1 version was then discovered to be “broken” though I was unable to hear such “damage” in track 3 of the Iberia album. 1.1a was introduced after removal of the damage and thus I presumed it had the same gain as 1.1. Now reading the explanation It seems to me the “breaking” culprit was the 6db boost and so 1.1a had to go back to the pre boosting gain. If that was the case, perhaps I would not have made such wrong assumption if it was said the 6db boost overloaded the sound of the tracks and so 1.1a went back to the pre boost gain.

Want to relate honestly what I still hear.

The pre 1.1 (call it Demo4) together with the 1.1a track 3 Iberia, in playlist at the same gain. Demo 4 is livelier, crispier and more forward and is still the one I prefer. By more forward, I mean the ambience of the piano goes beyond the plane of the speakers towards the listener whereas the 1.1a only has it behind such plane. To me, Demo 4 is more real, more akin to live. Perhaps that is merely personal preference.

As regards the tenor track, Ideale, I prefer version 1.1 to its elder

Demo brother and its younger 1.1a, being livelier than both of them. I did not hear “broken” or “damaged” portions. Did I fall into the trap of louder sounding better. I don’t know. Need to match the gain and listen carefully again.

[francisleung]

Hi Odelay,

As regards hearing capability, I must admit I do not hear nuances often described and talked about by audiophiles, particularly those attributable to cable, power cord improvements. I am only able to pick out large differences. I have my own view of what sound I prefer, purportedly relating to what I hear in concerts sitting at row 1 or 2. I am fastidious about image size, layers of players and absolute phase. Not the cup of tea of many audiophiles, I know. Not on the same wavelength.

[odelay]

Always appreciate getting a fresh perspective.

But at the end of the day, it is you who sits in that listening chair :-)

[Mario Martinez]

The pre 1.1 (call it Demo4) together with the 1.1a track 3 Iberia, in playlist at the same gain. Demo 4 is livelier, crispier and more forward and is still the one I prefer. By more forward, I mean the ambience of the piano goes beyond the plane of the speakers towards the listener whereas the 1.1a only has it behind such plane. To me, Demo 4 is more real, more akin to live. Perhaps that is merely personal preference.

 

Hi Francis,

 

I understand your description perfectly.

 

I have been working on this all morning. After taking out the resonance, I should have measured for overall balance (which I did not do). Taking out the resonance, also altered the overall balance. The bass in v1.1a is less than the bass in v1.0. That is what is producing the effect you are talking about.

 

Instead of reprocessing everything right away (which takes a long time) I have processed just the version comparison demo with a new calibration v1.1b that fixes this problem. I have uploaded the demo with the three different versions (v1.0, v1.1a, v1.1b)

 

I will send codes to everyone to download these version comparison demos. I hope I got it right this time

 

I will wait to see if everything is correct with this one before I reprocess all the albums.

[francisleung]

A quick report after my brief listening to the three new tracks, v1.0, v1.1a and v1.1b.

This is a partial recording that I did not have previously.

1. For the Iberia track 3, I listened with gain -17.

These 3, -20.

2. v1.0 and v1.1a are of the same absolutely phase. v1.1b has such phase changed and I have to convert its phase by Korg for comparison with the other 2.

3. v1.0 is the one I prefer, livelier than the other 2. v1.1a is slightly recessed than v1.0. And v1.1b, even phase converted, has the piano notes and image expanded to both sides, a bulging or fat sound that some may call it. Some people may like this kind sound but not me.

4. In all three tracks, the piano moves towards the right channel. So I listened with left at -20 and right, -23.

[odelay]

Being the small minded sod that I am, I'm incapable of listening for more than one thing at once. The lack of bass in 1.1a. Was totally lost on me.

 

I think I would agree with Francis - the the bass on 1.1b is too much (to my ear - with my current settings/set-up). Frequency balance on 1.0 does seem preferable - but maybe that because it's the 'original' (so we take it be 'correct'?).

 

I found it easier to just compare 1.0 with 1.1b... 'Cause I'm small minded that way...

 

Mario - glad you're using samples to test. It may well be worth playing around a little more?

 

I'm most curious to know more about what you're doing ... Although that may spoil the fun of trying to work it out for ourselves [emoji4]

[francisleung]

One more point. In v1.0, the piano strings have lots of harmonics--something I like.

I know the instrument may well be the same 7' Yamaha, but if I have to make a wild guess with no information at all, I would say it is a Bösendorfer