AMP vs DAC ...further exploration

[beerandmusic]

DACs .... that allow you to offload a great deal of what affects sound quality (i.e., sample rate interpolation, the accompanying filtering, and sigma-delta modulation) to software....

 

These days the digital design part of this can be moved to computer software for many DACs - DACs that accept DSD input as high as the DAC uses internally.....

 

that technical jargon makes my head dizzy...

Can you confirm that is what is done both with the KORG w/audiogate and the TEAC ud-503 w/Teac software?

 

I just want plug and play.. i never manually do anything with the software. All i have done is just trying different upsampling rates... I just ordered the ud-503, so i can't speak to it yet, but the korg sounded pretty impressive to me via audiogate software.

 

Do i need to know something else besides just playing the music via the included software? I am not sure what you mean by other references about manually tuning the software...I am assuming you were talking about HQP, but am i getting out of the manufacturers software what i want without having to go too technical?

[beerandmusic]

My setup with iFI micro and used Firstwatt amp as a few hundred $ above this price point. Haven't used a nano but I'd more likely switch to nano than switch away from Amp.

 

+1 Agreed! That is what i have been trying to say.

[Jud]

that technical jargon makes my head dizzy...

Can you confirm that is what is done both with the KORG w/audiogate and the TEAC ud-503 w/Teac software?

 

I just want plug and play.. i never manually do anything with the software. All i have done is just trying different upsampling rates... I just ordered the ud-503, so i can't speak to it yet, but the korg sounded pretty impressive to me via audiogate software.

 

Do i need to know something else besides just playing the music via the included software? I am not sure what you mean by other references about manually tuning the software...I am assuming you were talking about HQP, but am i getting out of the manufacturers software what i want without having to go too technical?

 

You can feed files directly to your DAC or upsample them with Audiogate first, and see what you like.

[4est]

IMO, you are placing too much hope that software is a cure all. What affects sound quality? Everything! Offloading upsampling does not change any of the other parameters. Clocks are king, power supplies rule and there are a hundred ways to do I/V and buffering. If a $200 DAC reaps great benefits from for instance PC based PCM>DSD, it is a testament to the filters and the author. That same filter sounds "that" much better on a better DAC plus or minus however they do the conversions.

DACs in the vicinity of $200 that allow you to offload a great deal of what affects sound quality (i.e., sample rate interpolation, the accompanying filtering, and sigma-delta modulation) to software: ifi Nano, Geek Out 450; the Geek Out V2 is coming down to that range ($249 at Audio Advisor).

 

What affects sound quality in a DAC?

 

- Digital design: sample rate interpolation and accompanying filtering, sigma-delta modulation

 

- Analog design

 

- Overall parts quality

 

These days the digital design part of this can be moved to computer software for many DACs - DACs that accept DSD input as high as the DAC uses internally, and PCM DACs that are NOS or accept input at a rate as high as the DAC uses internally. (I'm not aware of any DACs in the latter category in the $200 range. Bifrost Multibit at $600 is the least expensive such non-DIY DAC I know of.)

[Jud]

IMO, you are placing too much hope that software is a cure all. What affects sound quality? Everything! Offloading upsampling does not change any of the other parameters. Clocks are king, power supplies rule and there are a hundred ways to do I/V and buffering. If a $200 DAC reaps great benefits from for instance PC based PCM>DSD, it is a testament to the filters and the author. That same filter sounds "that" much better on a better DAC plus or minus however they do the conversions.

 

Yep, you can always do it better. Hard to do it better cheaper, though. Especially if you'd take something like this and make an NAA out of it: ODROID | Hardkernel

[4est]

I feel you missed my point or glossed over it. I also do not understand what an NAA has to do with this. It is my opinion that you can perceptively notice the differences and apply some "value" to it up until about 3k for a DAC or amp. Until then, it will likely be give and take and I understand the desire to put it into the amps first. I have an iFi Nano for instance, and would not trade it for my DSC1 or Buffalo II, and doubt that I could live with it long term as my main DAC. I have tried to when my BII was on the fritz and I didn't have the where with all to fix it for months. FWIW, I have a couple of PCM FPGA upsamplers including a Sonore/Audiobyte USB>I2S, and they do make a big difference.

Yep, you can always do it better. Hard to do it better cheaper, though. Especially if you'd take something like this and make an NAA out of it: ODROID | Hardkernel

[Jud]

I feel you missed my point or glossed over it. I also do not understand what an NAA has to do with this. It is my opinion that you can perceptively notice the differences and apply some "value" to it up until about 3k for a DAC or amp. Until then, it will likely be give and take and I understand the desire to put it into the amps first. I have an iFi Nano for instance, and would not trade it for my DSC1 or Buffalo II, and doubt that I could live with it long term as my main DAC. I have tried to when my BII was on the fritz and I didn't have the where with all to fix it for months. FWIW, I have a couple of PCM FPGA upsamplers including a Sonore/Audiobyte USB>I2S, and they do make a big difference.

 

I do understand what you're saying.

 

Here's my logic (for what it's worth):

 

We were given a choice between a DAC costing 10x what the amp does and vice versa, with the total price of the two being $2200. That's pretty much a slam dunk for two reasons. I can't think of a $200 amp I'd find even minimally acceptable in a high end system, while I could make do with a $200 DAC. Wouldn't be thrilled, but I could make do, and would definitely prefer it to the other choice. Second, for the DAC I could "cheat" to an extent by doing part of its job in software. Doesn't turn it into a $2000 DAC by any means, but helps it be a much better $200 DAC.

 

Your proposition is that you might prefer splitting the $2200 down the middle. I personally wouldn't, not because you wouldn't get a better DAC (you would), but because I still don't like my amp choices at $1100. A $1500/$700 split I'd consider.

[beerandmusic]

I do understand what you're saying.

 

Here's my logic (for what it's worth):

 

We were given a choice between a DAC costing 10x what the amp does and vice versa, with the total price of the two being $2200. That's pretty much a slam dunk for two reasons. I can't think of a $200 amp I'd find even minimally acceptable in a high end system, while I could make do with a $200 DAC. Wouldn't be thrilled, but I could make do, and would definitely prefer it to the other choice. Second, for the DAC I could "cheat" to an extent by doing part of its job in software. Doesn't turn it into a $2000 DAC by any means, but helps it be a much better $200 DAC.

 

Your proposition is that you might prefer splitting the $2200 down the middle. I personally wouldn't, not because you wouldn't get a better DAC (you would), but because I still don't like my amp choices at $1100. A $1500/$700 split I'd consider.

 

Of all the people on this site, i value yours and miskas input the most....

 

regardless of this thread, i have a mcintosh amp now and am ecstatic about its sound.

That said, you indicate above that you would be content with a $700/$1500 spread given a $2200 budget.

I am curious what dac you would buy for $700....

also...

Let's say i have up to $1200 i am comfortable spending on a dac.

What would you buy for a dac (besides a diy) and if you had to use foobar or jriver (no hqp)

 

would you consider a

 

1. Teac UD-503 (doesnt seem to be very popular here, but has great reviews, won some 2016 japanese most prestigious award, and does DSD, and i know miska liked the 501)

 

2. Schiit gungir multibit (seems very popular here but doesn't do DSD)

 

3. something else in that price range

 

I can't find any reviews that compare the first two.

 

I know the obvious response would be you haven't heard them both, so you can't offer an opinion (which is basically where i am at)...but regardless of that which one would you try first based on any research you have done and your knowledge?

 

I already ordered the 503, but they said it was backordered from where i bought it, so i told them to cancel (mainly because i know i can buy it elsewhere now, but i am still on the fence).

[beerandmusic]

I feel you missed my point or glossed over it. I also do not understand what an NAA has to do with this. It is my opinion that you can perceptively notice the differences and apply some "value" to it up until about 3k for a DAC or amp. Until then, it will likely be give and take and I understand the desire to put it into the amps first. I have an iFi Nano for instance, and would not trade it for my DSC1 or Buffalo II, and doubt that I could live with it long term as my main DAC. I have tried to when my BII was on the fritz and I didn't have the where with all to fix it for months. FWIW, I have a couple of PCM FPGA upsamplers including a Sonore/Audiobyte USB>I2S, and they do make a big difference.

 

I think i understood his point that given a small budget, he would rather have a cheap dac and a good amp...he wasn't saying that you cant improve on a dac all the way up to 3K with considerable improvements. everything is relative.

[CR250]

"I can't find any reviews that compare the first two.

 

I know the obvious response would be you haven't heard them both, so you can't offer an opinion (which is basically where i am at)...but regardless of that which one would you try first based on any research you have done and your knowledge?"

 

If that's where you are, then just call The Cable Company and have them send you some demo's. Listening is the research. If you buy from reviews and opinions, you'll quickly find how surprisingly different the components sound in your system, than they do in print. Audiophiles never agree on anything. But you'll never hear anyone say it was a bad idea to demo a piece before buying it.

[beerandmusic]

"I can't find any reviews that compare the first two.

 

I know the obvious response would be you haven't heard them both, so you can't offer an opinion (which is basically where i am at)...but regardless of that which one would you try first based on any research you have done and your knowledge?"

 

If that's where you are, then just call The Cable Company and have them send you some demo's. Listening is the research. If you buy from reviews and opinions, you'll quickly find how surprisingly different the components sound in your system, than they do in print. Audiophiles never agree on anything. But you'll never hear anyone say it was a bad idea to demo a piece before buying it.

 

 

huh? call the cable company? I don't think either teac or schiit sends demo units. i can buy and return or buy and sell used which is what i typically do...i have already auditioned a half dozen a few years ago...and likely will again, but just want his advice on which to try first.

[CR250]

huh? call the cable company? I don't think either teac or schiit sends demo units. i can buy and return or buy and sell used which is what i typically do...i have already auditioned a half dozen a few years ago...and likely will again, but just want his advice on which to try first.

 

Have them send you whatever they have in your price range. This is one of the best audio stores in the country for customer service. You work with them to determine what your best options are, and they send you several dac's all at once for you to try. If they don't have Teac and Schitt, so what? They don't have the market cornered on good dac's. Right now, you're sold on the review and not the dac.

 

That said, I didn't realize you were willing to buy and sell a half dozen or so dac's. Its not a bad way to go, but its a lot of work. Everything has to be timed just right so you don't send the best dac back before you get a chance to hear them all. But I would still call Cable Company and see what they have to offer. You have nothing to lose by asking. Also, since they do so much business, there's a good chance they may have the Teac or Schiit units that were taken in on trade.

[lmitche]

You can spend $1700 for one of these terrific amps and still have $500 left for a good new or used DAC.

 

http://www.jobsys.com/products.htm

[JW Audio]

You can spend $1700 for one of these terrific amps and still have $500 left for a good new or used DAC.

 

JOB Products

 

The JOB INT already has a DAC built into it.

[lmitche]

Yea, I was thinking about the Job 225 amp. You are right, the INT has a DAC! It has a nice review from 6moons too. Both approaches work. You can't beat these prices for what is essentially a Goldmund built product. With a $2200 budget one can get the INT and a pair of the new Andrew Jones floorstanding speakers from Elac. Just add a PC and that's one great system for the money.

[4est]

This has a DAC? Gosh, I used the 225 as an example, but the Int is the same price. That said, I would want to hear that for certain.

Yea, I was thinking about the Job 225 amp. You are right, the INT has a DAC! It has a nice review from 6moons too. Both approaches work. You can't beat these prices for what is essentially a Goldmund built product. With a $2200 budget one can get the INT and a pair of the new Andrew Jones floorstanding speakers from Elac. Just add a PC and that's one great system for the money.

[4est]

A $1500/700 split makes more sense to me, and the $200 doesn't buy you much btw of amps. The Outlaw 2200s I mentioned are only $800 a pair, and Barry D seems to like them for his MG 3.6(7)s. I just know that I would struggle long term with the $200 DACs that I know of.

[beerandmusic]

Have them send you whatever they have in your price range. This is one of the best audio stores in the country for customer service. You work with them to determine what your best options are, and they send you several dac's all at once for you to try. If they don't have Teac and Schitt, so what? They don't have the market cornered on good dac's.

 

so you were serious? What company are you talking about that will ship you several dacs at once to try? I have never heard of any such thing????

[Blake]

Yeah, the new Job INT sounds like a slam dunk in terms of value. If the 6 Moons review is close to being accurate, I would be really surprised if the Job INT could be beat for the money (when compared to buying new products from other manufacturers). I love my 225.

[beerandmusic]

A $1500/700 split makes more sense to me, and the $200 doesn't buy you much btw of amps. The Outlaw 2200s I mentioned are only $800 a pair, and Barry D seems to like them for his MG 3.6(7)s. I just know that I would struggle long term with the $200 DACs that I know of.

 

you may be right for you..i don't know...i just know this mcintosh sounds a WHOLE LOT better with a $200 dac than the marantz sounded with a $1000 dac. but to each their own, and even with NO external dac (using sony bluray and dlna ) it sounds tons better than the marantz too...i even bet if you heard dnla through my sony to mcintosh, you would agree it sounds much better than marantz....i can't speak to the outlaw, but i would guess the mcintosh sounds better too...but maybe not.

[Rexp]

you may be right for you..i don't know...i just know this mcintosh sounds a WHOLE LOT better with a $200 dac than the marantz sounded with a $1000 dac. but to each their own, and even with NO external dac (using sony bluray and dlna ) it sounds tons better than the marantz too...i even bet if you heard dnla through my sony to mcintosh, you would agree it sounds much better than marantz....i can't speak to the outlaw, but i would guess the mcintosh sounds better too...but maybe not.

I quite like the idea of using the Sony Bluray as a renderer, what server are you using?

[Kelly]

I guess I am late to the thread.

 

Facetious answer: Spend and get both with something Like the NAD C390DD, it's a dac that is powereful enough to drive speakers! And it does it very well

 

Real asnwer: This one is easy for me with those funds. To me there are dacs like the dragonfly and nano that actually are quite listenable. Any amplifier that can drive a challenging speaker with reasonable authority needs a beefy power supply that is unquestionable going to cost more than $200. A great amp will serve for a long time and not be outdated. Dacs just change so quickly that even without those budget contraints its difficult to rationalize spending nearly as much as on the amp. I will give you an example from my own situation, my main system in my signature has an NAD M51 dac which cost $2k when new. My pair of monblock amps, bought around the same time, were a smidge over $2k but right within the neighborhood. Now the NAD might be a bit long in the tooth and has me eyeing other dacs in the $2k price range (hello Yggy!) I am perfectly content with my amps because they sound great and drive my speakers with authoritay! If I were looking to spend in the $2k range on an amp/amps, then the Odyssey monos would still be top contenders and offer great value. For $2k new, I really can't say the same for the M51.

[beerandmusic]

I quite like the idea of using the Sony Bluray as a renderer, what server are you using?

 

minim server is the only free one i know of that supports dsd

[Jud]

Yeah, the new Job INT sounds like a slam dunk in terms of value. If the 6 Moons review is close to being accurate, I would be really surprised if the Job INT could be beat for the money (when compared to buying new products from other manufacturers). I love my 225.

 

What was the highest input resolution for the INT?

[beerandmusic]

I guess I am late to the thread.

 

A great amp will serve for a long time and not be outdated. Dacs just change so quickly that even without those budget contraints its difficult to rationalize spending nearly as much as on the amp. .

 

2 and a half years ago i was laughed at here when i said dsd is to stay and that dac engineering is still in it's infancy..haha...

 

my guess is that we will have mqa and $500 dacs sounding better than $2K dacs of 3 years ago in another year.