Lyngdorf vs ?

[PhilR]

Hey all,

 

I am a happy Lyngdorf TDAI 2200 room correction system/amp owner. It is incredibly simple to use and extremely effective in my challenging listening area. But I have a feeling there are now many <$1000 DACs that will handily outperform the built-in DACs of the 7+ year old Lyngdorf integrated DACs. Unfortunately Lyngdorf does digital correction in a way that doesn't allow the use of an external DAC.

 

Due to WAF, my listening area needs to stay pretty much as is. I'm attaching a photo of the immediate room. The nook placement is not ideal, but it is the only option. To the right is more open living area, to the left is a sliding glass door. A small area rug is in front and lots of windows immediately behind the driver's seat. I'm sure I could pack it with lots of traps and sound absorption goodies, but the Lyngdorf makes really good music on its own and keeps the room intact. Turning off the room correction makes it completely unlistenable.

 

I'm looking for opinions on other DSP options that can perform as well as the Lyngdorf in my room. This would allow me to go to a high quality DAC and network renderer setup that bypasses any USB issues and also gives more options for media management and playback software. Maybe someone has direct experience with comparing Lyngdorf with other current systems? Thanks!

 

[Evo1668]

i have no idea what your budget constraints may be, but have you ever considered Trinnov? I have been using the Amethyst for nearly two years now. It can be used as a 2.1, 2.2, 4 channel, 2.0 channel active Crossover - with multiple house curves, measure points.

 

For me it has proven to be the one of the best sounding/least intrusive, subtle but effective DRC system that can also act as a single box solution. It is so simple to set up. It can do UPNP streaming, active crossovers, bass management, preamplifier, room correction, 29 room curve presets - a veritable Swiss Army knife.....the only downside, if you let your inner geek out, is you could spend hours trying the multiple configurations which are possible. In fact it forms the hub of my digital system.

[PhilR]

Good question. It would need to be in the $2K or lower range, so that leaves your Amethyst off the table.

 

I should add that like the Amethyst Trinvov, whatever system I upgrade to would also require an active crossover.

 

For the $$ (especially on the used market), the Lyngdorf is really doing a heck of a lot - 200wpc amp, digital crossover, DAC, room correction, great build quality. I just wish the DAC could be bypassed with an upgraded unit.

[tranz]

Hi Phil,

 

Dirac software is nice in how you can see and tweak the graph visually and create many different templates to switch between. There is a gentleman, Fabio on the forum who supports Dirac and is very helpful.

 

There is a Lyngdorf McIntosh unit MEN220 that might be interesting.

[PhilR]

Hi Phil,

 

Dirac software is nice in how you can see and tweak the graph visually and create many different templates to switch between. There is a gentleman, Fabio on the forum who supports Dirac and is very helpful.

 

There is a Lyngdorf McIntosh unit MEN220 that might be interesting.

 

The McIntosh looks interesting, but it accepts only analog inputs. I'm guessing that it does all processing in the digital domain, meaning it has its own ADC>DAC built in. It has its own crossover and would definitely allow me to use my own DAC, but the additional conversion processing beyond that can't be ideal. I'll look deeper into Dirac, but it would involve an external crossover for my subs.

[Kal Rubinson]

The McIntosh looks interesting, but it accepts only analog inputs. I'm guessing that it does all processing in the digital domain, meaning it has its own ADC>DAC built in. It has its own crossover and would definitely allow me to use my own DAC, but the additional conversion processing beyond that can't be ideal. I'll look deeper into Dirac, but it would involve an external crossover for my subs.

take a look at miniDSP for both the crossover and Dirac.

[Youreye]

Hi Phil!

I am not the biggest audiophile here and would not dare to recommend something what I didn't try myself. I like Lyngdorf and what they are doing. The system you have look very fine to me. And here it comes: I don't think that a better DAC will get you somewhere or make the system sounds better. The Lyngdorf is optimised to do it's job and I am not even sure if you can infuse the DAC into the pathway. Remember, I am not an expert and this is just my personal opinion here. I would maybe ask Lyngdorf direct if there is a way how to uprade your system without to buying the whole new system from them:) Is there something that your DAC can not do or play? Or why exactly it is that you would like to have a better one. I would not buy anything before you test it your self in your system though.

[skatbelt]

The McIntosh looks interesting, but it accepts only analog inputs. I'm guessing that it does all processing in the digital domain, meaning it has its own ADC>DAC built in. It has its own crossover and would definitely allow me to use my own DAC, but the additional conversion processing beyond that can't be ideal. I'll look deeper into Dirac, but it would involve an external crossover for my subs.

 

MacIntosh MEN220 = Lyngdorf RP-1 (retired) = essentially the processor part in your TDAI.

 

Trinnov, Dirac Live (as software solution) or MiniDSP/Dirac Live (hardware solution) are options I know off.

[MikeJazz]

Hi Phil!

I am not the biggest audiophile here and would not dare to recommend something what I didn't try myself. I like Lyngdorf and what they are doing. The system you have look very fine to me. And here it comes: I don't think that a better DAC will get you somewhere or make the system sounds better. The Lyngdorf is optimised to do it's job and I am not even sure if you can infuse the DAC into the pathway. Remember, I am not an expert and this is just my personal opinion here. I would maybe ask Lyngdorf direct if there is a way how to uprade your system without to buying the whole new system from them:) Is there something that your DAC can not do or play? Or why exactly it is that you would like to have a better one. I would not buy anything before you test it your self in your system though.

 

I am also a Lyngdorf user and I would echo this opinion.

Lyngdorf DSP is actually quite good, and is being used by mcintosh themselves. I disagree the DAC is outdated. what is true is that it was far ahead most competition when it was released.

 

You have to spend quite a lot to clearly improve dac performance - after having tested several dacs, I thing I might have to get into 5 or 6k Eur territory.

 

Or it might be the case that, instead of a "better" sound, you might want to get a "different" sound. Depending on the musical program, sometimes I wonder that I would like a more full bodied sound, of more "dramatic", like Chord.

 

On the OP's specific situation, it seems clear that the DSP/Perfect Room impact is quite significant and I see no better solution at the price level.

 

But be warned against conventional wisdom: the Lyngdorf ADC section (if installed) is quite good and you might easily perceive changes in sound using other DAC's. There is a new model (TDAI2170) with USB input and a ADC that I have not tested yet.

 

Of course most people will tell you that you "must" hear worst sound using two dac stages....Well, check for yourself.

[hifileifi]

Hey all,

 

I am a happy Lyngdorf TDAI 2200 room correction system/amp owner. It is incredibly simple to use and extremely effective in my challenging listening area. But I have a feeling there are now many <$1000 DACs that will handily outperform the built-in DACs of the 7+ year old Lyngdorf integrated DACs. Unfortunately Lyngdorf does digital correction in a way that doesn't allow the use of an external DAC.

 

Hi Phil

I am not sure that you know exactly how the TDAI works . . . or maybe I misunderstand what it is you want to do.

Anyway . . there is no DAC in the TDAI (on the inputs). The amp is fully digital so there is no D/A conversion! So, your digital input signal is re-sampled to the internal precision clock (for removing jitter) and then the DSP (for e.g. RoomPerfect) is working on the full scale, full resolution PCM signal before it is converted directly to PWM for the output stage.

I hope this info is useful . . and if not as another person here on the forum answered . . contact the guys at Lyngdorf directly to get detailed insight to what you want to know. From personal experience I know that they will answer you. Anytime.

[skatbelt]

I probably caused this thread with this comment in another thread. See: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/w4s-and-other-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-fixers-non-curated-27636/index2.html#post512647

 

As can be read, I disagree with the last two/three posters. I also verified my findings by using the TDAI only as a DAC (via it's analog outputs; all dsp processes bypassed) into my Bakoon HPA-21 headphone amplifier. Not only the Hugo makes a big difference. I also tested with a borrowed Vega and a Metrum Pavane.

 

I love (and can't live without) Lyngdorf's Roomperfect myself. It let's my mediocre room compete with a good acoustical treated one. I hope that someday Lyngdorf will develop a digital only processor that can be placed in front of a dac. Giving me the opportunity to choose the amp I want.

[PhilR]

Thanks for all of the input gentlemen! I agree with the consensus that the Lyngdorf is doing most (95%) of the heavy lifting for the improvement of SQ in my system & room. It really is a great piece of equipment! Chasing down that extra 5% involves getting rid of all USB issues by moving to a DAC/renderer/extra amp/crossover/software setup which will cost many times more than the TDAI 2200 is worth.

 

At some point I might experiment, borrow a nice DAC and feed it back into the setup as skatbelt advises. But for now it is easy to be content with the great music the system makes and wait until the chance to put it all into a much better listening space comes around.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I have several thoughts from my own perspective.

 

First, I completely agree that Room EQ quickly becomes essential. You cannot live without it once heard.

 

I have never heard Lyngdorf, but I have heard enough good things about it to find it very credible, unlike some EQ tools. I have been using Dirac quite happily in my PC since abandoning Audyssey/Audyssey Pro along with my old Mch prepro. I now use an 8 channel PC to DAC to amps to speakers setup. My main PC software is JRiver feeding Dirac. In addition to the very best sound of my lifetime, I am freed from the continuing obsolescence of my old prepro. I could now upgrade my DAC (Exasound e28), my EQ or my library/player software, each independently, if something else comes along that is better.

 

I really do not subscribe at all to the demonization of USB. I am sure that USB's critics are not blaming the right thing in their sonic dissatisfaction. I have no problems with USB, and I have heard no significant benefit from tweaks. Though other changes were made to my system, it sounds much better now than it did into my former prepro via HDMI. I am sure my DAC has a lot to do with that, much as I am sure that USB does not have "issues" that take away from that, popular though USB bashing has become.

 

I would suggest that if you are tempted to try a different DAC, you might also do a free trial of Dirac along with that. That was part of my Exasound trial, as I required a Room EQ solution concurrent with that. Not sure that such a new combo will be better for you, but I am quite sure it will be pretty good. Recently, Arcam has come on board with Dirac, which is a very credible endorsement from a quality company, following on the heels of Datasat, Emotiva, Rolls Royce, Bentley, BMW and Volvo.

 

One thing I like about the PC version of Dirac is its up to 192k capability. One thing I dislike about it is its lack of bass management. But, I do bass management quite well in JRiver.

[rayhil]

I am considering adding room correction to my system to get improved sound quality. I'd appreciate any opinions on the topic. I have no real need to replace my MX119. That said, the MEN220 appears a very good choice, but being several years old appears to potentially lack the newest capabilities and doesn't seem to be upgradeable with software. I'd like a hardware, rather than PC-based, solution.

Thanks in advance

Ray

[Youreye]

Hi Ray,

 

and did you check the miniDSP website already? They have some nice HW that you could incorporate in your setup maybe.

[zorntel]

I'm a Lyngdorf RP-1 user. It made a huge difference in my system which includes both computer audio and a turntable.

 

In computer audio I use HQ player to upsample to DSD256 before the signal goes to a Mytek Brooklyn DAC for conversion to analog. This then goes through a Cary tube preamp before it heads to the Lyngdorf and then my power amp. HQ player has support for room correction...which would make sense for computer audio...but I also want to correct the room for my turntable.

 

I have a Mytek ADC (for ripping vinyl), so I suppose I could send the output from my turntable through that and then to my computer from that to my computer...but that seems rather convoluted compared the easy Lyngdorf solution. Interesting I can easily hear the difference between different resolutions of PCM and DSD files even after they go through the uniformly 24/96 lyngdorf (everything upsampled to DSD256 is nirvana for me). Sure would be nice if their was a way to upgrade the DAC in the RP-1 (McIntosh MEN220)...but maybe it doesn't matter.

 

Robert

[PhilR]

Have you considered Dirac room correction software? You could run it before HQ Player and keep all of the processing in the digital domain instead of a reconversion process with the RP-1.

[logefiregod]

I've been using the Macintosh MEN220 in my system for about six months now, and I love it! Try to get a dealer to let you audition it in your house for a week or so, as mine did, and you can decide for yourself. There's a very useful a/b switch on the remote that allows easy comparison.

[artur9]

I have a Lyngdorf DPA-1 and I use its digital out to feed an external DAC to my amps. The internal DAC was fine but I liked my external one better.