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Introduction--Looking to Upgrade DAC


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Hey Dork, did you someone drop you on your head?

 

Don't get get smug with me, bugger off someplace else for that.

 

"The Socratic method is a method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The Socratic method searches for general, commonly held truths that shape beliefs, and scrutinizes them to determine their consistency with other beliefs"

 

So much for subtlety.

Do your own homework.

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Congrats! Look forward to your impression. What is it replacing?

 

I've only been back into audio for less than 18 months so I had a few cost effective "make-do" items to get functional. I am replacing an Asus Xonar Essence STX with Muses01 + Muses02 Op-Amps with the X20-U.

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Since DACs are more computerized do the $2,000 DACs really sound better than say $200.00 ones or 400.00 ones?

 

Or is it mostly the box, connectors and features that drive the cost up?

 

Do they also reverse it? meaning can they all go from Digital to analog and also Analog to digital?

 

I'm no expert but it seems the purpose is to translate the digital bits (analog representation using one's and zero's) back to an analog sound wave that is either presented to a preamp or nowadays often directly to an amplifier.

 

What I take from what I have read is that things can happen to a data stream during its journey from a stored file (data) to what comes out the other end of the DAC. If I think about it, a sound that comes from a source has delay, and reflection information. If I hear a sound in a larger hard room like a gym then I'm getting all kinds of reflective sounds that hit my ear and brain withing milliseconds of the original. What I am getting at is that things can get in the way of the sound information before it reaches our ears that change how we perceive sounds. Much in the same way it is my understanding that timing is crucial to what comes out the analog end of the DAC. Also we do not want to either lose, pick up or delay those bits of data so they arrive at the DAC just as they were recorded.

 

Although my understanding is pretty basic, it seems what DAC makers are doing these days is to create a superhighway that the bits can travel along that is not influenced by outside factors such as electrical noise and timing delays. Of course it cost money to research and try new things. Getting the bits to the actual converter chip is part of the problem. There are different methodologies used to recreate that analog output. There are many mass produced DACs chips but some have chosen to create their own proprietary DAC chips and yet others have taken chips not normally used for Digital Audio to create a Digital to Analog converter products.

 

I have no idea what it take to create a finished DAC product. It seems though that one can purchase some really good products for not much coin these days. ($500-$3000) Of course even that is relative to how high a person's stack of coins is. In the end though it is up to my ears as whether or not a $2000 DAC sounds better than a $200 one. Even further, the differences may be so small that I just cannot justify the cost of such a small difference. It seems with mid to high end audio there is a certain "what the market will bear" factor and even just plain mysticism. "It costs a helluvah lot of money so it must be good right?" What a wonderful passionate hobby though. Each new discovery often opens a door (or Pandora's box LOL) into other areas of the signal chain that just MUST be investigated.

 

I expect my new DAC in late next week and if I'm honest realize that it generates a certain anticipation and adrenaline rush. ME: "Hi I'm Allen and I'm addicted to Audio". GROUP: "Hi Allen". Well, you get the picture. I can't waited to be Wowed again.

 

thanks all

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I'm no expert but it seems the purpose is to translate the digital bits (analog representation using one's and zero's) back to an analog sound wave that is either presented to a preamp or nowadays often directly to an amplifier.

 

What I take from what I have read is that things can happen to a data stream during its journey from a stored file (data) to what comes out the other end of the DAC. If I think about it, a sound that comes from a source has delay, and reflection information. If I hear a sound in a larger hard room like a gym then I'm getting all kinds of reflective sounds that hit my ear and brain withing milliseconds of the original. What I am getting at is that things can get in the way of the sound information before it reaches our ears that change how we perceive sounds. Much in the same way it is my understanding that timing is crucial to what comes out the analog end of the DAC. Also we do not want to either lose, pick up or delay those bits of data so they arrive at the DAC just as they were recorded.

 

Although my understanding is pretty basic, it seems what DAC makers are doing these days is to create a superhighway that the bits can travel along that is not influenced by outside factors such as electrical noise and timing delays. Of course it cost money to research and try new things. Getting the bits to the actual converter chip is part of the problem. There are different methodologies used to recreate that analog output. There are many mass produced DACs chips but some have chosen to create their own proprietary DAC chips and yet others have taken chips not normally used for Digital Audio to create a Digital to Analog converter products.

 

I have no idea what it take to create a finished DAC product. It seems though that one can purchase some really good products for not much coin these days. ($500-$3000) Of course even that is relative to how high a person's stack of coins is. In the end though it is up to my ears as whether or not a $2000 DAC sounds better than a $200 one. Even further, the differences may be so small that I just cannot justify the cost of such a small difference. It seems with mid to high end audio there is a certain "what the market will bear" factor and even just plain mysticism. "It costs a helluvah lot of money so it must be good right?" What a wonderful passionate hobby though. Each new discovery often opens a door (or Pandora's box LOL) into other areas of the signal chain that just MUST be investigated.

 

I expect my new DAC in late next week and if I'm honest realize that it generates a certain anticipation and adrenaline rush. ME: "Hi I'm Allen and I'm addicted to Audio". GROUP: "Hi Allen". Well, you get the picture. I can't waited to be Wowed again.

 

thanks all

 

agreed....i just recieved my 10th DAC. A teac ud-503. Rave reviews, highest japanese audio award of 2016, usb isolation, 2 internal clocks, 2 torroidal transformers, ability to upsample everything to quad dsd....Yes, it sounds great, but still upgrading from a marantz amp to a mcintosh amp was a much more dramatic improvement than going from a $170 DAC to a $1000 DAC (i also have tried 2 others exceeding 1K).

 

I got better boost of performance from software (audiogate) and mcintosh amp than the dac. The external dac is overrated imho... heck, people can't even agree unanimously that any external dac sounds better than another, or that a media player with an internal dac doesn't sound better....if there is no consistency of a majority that will state one dac is better than another then it makes no sense to pay more money regardless of how deep someones pockets are unless it is for status.

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I got better boost of performance from software (audiogate) and mcintosh amp than the dac. The external dac is overrated imho... heck, people can't even agree unanimously that any external dac sounds better than another, or that a media player with an internal dac doesn't sound better....if there is no consistency of a majority that will state one dac is better than another then it makes no sense to pay more money regardless of how deep someones pockets are unless it is for status.

 

 

I'm a member of the San Francisco Audiophile Society, and a DAC shotout event is being held February 20th. Some 10 to 15 DACs are being compared, many surprisingly affordable. Pretty sure some notes on the results of that shootout will be posted in the forums. If you are still deciding on a DAC by then, maybe keep your eyes peeled for that post, or ping me. Might be useful info.

 

Todd,

What if any conclusions did the San Francisco Audiophile Society make at the DAC shootout?

 

AC

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agreed....i just recieved my 10th DAC. A teac ud-503. Rave reviews, highest japanese audio award of 2016, usb isolation, 2 internal clocks, 2 torroidal transformers, ability to upsample everything to quad dsd....Yes, it sounds great, but still upgrading from a marantz amp to a mcintosh amp was a much more dramatic improvement than going from a $170 DAC to a $1000 DAC (i also have tried 2 others exceeding 1K).

 

I got better boost of performance from software (audiogate) and mcintosh amp than the dac. The external dac is overrated imho... heck, people can't even agree unanimously that any external dac sounds better than another, or that a media player with an internal dac doesn't sound better....if there is no consistency of a majority that will state one dac is better than another then it makes no sense to pay more money regardless of how deep someones pockets are unless it is for status.

I'm not surprised a new DAC made little difference to SQ. It seems that folks are getting more significant improvements by either using a re-clocker (Mutec Mc3+) and/or a ethernet to USB/SPDIF device (Sonicorbiter) between server and DAC. Just demoing DAC's in isolation is a waste of time/money IMO.

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I'm not surprised a new DAC made little difference to SQ. It seems that folks are getting more significant improvements by either using a re-clocker (Mutec Mc3+) and/or a ethernet to USB/SPDIF device (Sonicorbiter) between server and DAC. Just demoing DAC's in isolation is a waste of time/money IMO.

That's not my experience comparing the Oppo 105 to the DAC DAC prototype to the Gustard X20. There were definite differences, with a clear good, better, best in my system. That being said, I've got no experience in reclocking other than what the DACs do.

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That's not my experience comparing the Oppo 105 to the DAC DAC prototype to the Gustard X20. There were definite differences, with a clear good, better, best in my system. That being said, I've got no experience in reclocking other than what the DACs do.

I meant you have to get your 'digital transport' right before you start trying new DAC's. Your digital transport in an Aurender S10 which is very good.

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I meant you have to get your 'digital transport' right before you start trying new DAC's. Your digital transport in an Aurender S10 which is very good.

Ahhh got it. My other source is a HAL Music Server, with 2 5TB HDDs. I have not done much comparing between the two, but the HAL is supposed to be pretty good as well. Before I got the Gustard I needed JRiver to translate DSD files to PCM so the Oppo and DAC DAC could play them. I'm eager to try out HAL outputting DSD into the X20.

 

At some point I may pare down to a single computer server--probably get rid of the Aurender as it only has 2TB. Until then I'll run USB from the HAL and SPDIF from the Aurender to compare the two.

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I meant you have to get your 'digital transport' right before you start trying new DAC's. Your digital transport in an Aurender S10 which is very good.

 

 

 

Keep in mind I am fairly new at this, but when you speak of digital transport do you mean everything from the point where the data is stored up to where it enters the DAC. Like a CD, DVD or BluRay with data outs? Would the all digital version of this start with a file server and/or a local PC w/storage, hardware optimizations, OS optimizations, Player + Tweaks?

 

The reason I ask is that I have a dedicated Win 2012R2 server for both HD Video and dedicated server drives for Audio.

 

I don't do surround sound, but 2 channel audio and video via a HTPC. All of my content is stored on the server and connected by 10Gbit multimode fiber optics.

 

I use Fidelizer Pro 7.0 and Foobar as an audio player on the Windows 10 x64 Enterprise HTPC.

 

I really would like to get up to speed on some of the different hardware/software setups people use to listen to content. I use my 4K Samsung TV (monitor on HTPC) to setup playlists and listen to music. I am guessing that there are other ways to pare down the work load on machine that sends the data to the DAC thereby improving sound quality. I guess I fit into the File Server to Client-Player camp.

 

thanks

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Keep in mind I am fairly new at this, but when you speak of digital transport do you mean everything from the point where the data is stored up to where it enters the DAC. Like a CD, DVD or BluRay with data outs? Would the all digital version of this start with a file server and/or a local PC w/storage, hardware optimizations, OS optimizations, Player + Tweaks?

 

The reason I ask is that I have a dedicated Win 2012R2 server for both HD Video and dedicated server drives for Audio.

 

I don't do surround sound, but 2 channel audio and video via a HTPC. All of my content is stored on the server and connected by 10Gbit multimode fiber optics.

 

I use Fidelizer Pro 7.0 and Foobar as an audio player on the Windows 10 x64 Enterprise HTPC.

 

I really would like to get up to speed on some of the different hardware/software setups people use to listen to content. I use my 4K Samsung TV (monitor on HTPC) to setup playlists and listen to music. I am guessing that there are other ways to pare down the work load on machine that sends the data to the DAC thereby improving sound quality. I guess I fit into the File Server to Client-Player camp.

 

thanks

Yes I use digital transport as a term for everything in front of the DAC. I've tried many DAC's with standard Mac's,PC's, Android devices and CD transports and been unimpressed with the results so now plan to get the 'transport' right first before I audition any more DAC's.

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I got my Gustard X20U Monday evening and have had a signal running thru it since, the DAC keeps changing as it gets hours on it, so this seems to confirm the lengthly breakin. I can say I am pretty impressed and the DAC is definitely worth every penny. It definitely loves strings, all string instruments. Classical music lovers should really like this dac. I am coming from a NAD M51 which in my system, with a jitterbug, and regen with modded PSU sounds simply wonderful. This DAC (Gustard) is hanging with it. The ability to upsample to DSD is why I ordered this dac. Ric at Tweakaudio.com is doing a few mods on this DAC and has posted his first series of. I will do his AC tweaks this weekend and add some rfi/emi shielding and some damping and report back. I think this dac has a huge upside. I am throughly enjoying all music that is played thru it currently and it is not broken in yet.

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  • 1 month later...

Just a quick listening update: I was in the mood for a little Art Pepper this morning, so I selected "Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section" on the Aurender and went about my business of pulling a couple espresso shots, checking work email, etc. I found it tough to concentrate, as the music kept pulling me in. While not sounding particluarly "real" (as in I'm not in the studio and they're not in my office--I was listening nowhere close to live levels anyway), Philly Joe Jones' stick and brush work grabbed my attention and my toe was tappin'.

 

 

At this point I have no idea how much has to do with the DAC, the cabling, tweaks, or even the time of day or my frame of mind. I do know, however, I'm quite happy with the sound I'm getting.

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