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The Comparison Thread for Recovery USB Reclocker, the Regen and similar devices... (Curated Thread)


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…. I should hopefully be in a position to compare all of them. But the story so far......goes to Intona/Regen, with caveat Hardlink at PC end and a CC Full Loom.....

 

Great post! I too have been unable to get the Intona to work with my (XMOS-input) DAC without the REGEN after it. And it also seems to not like cooperating with my two Curious cables (DAC get recognized, but only as capable of 24/96).

 

But maybe it won't be long until we have a fix for all this… (without having to embrace the UPnP/DLNA renderer route that Tranz went) :)

 

Ciao,

 

--Alex C.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Mutec MC-3+ USB ($1030 USD) - Isolates & Re-clocks (but appears to be overkill for most of us)

 

But I am going to add...

 

The Audiophilleo2 MKII USB>SPDIF converter for $579.

 

As well engineered as they are, neither of the above devices fits in the category of the topic of this thread. They are but two in a sea of USB>S/PDIF converters, and by definition they reclock--including becoming master clock for the DAC--because an S/PDIF signal embeds the clock in the line (which the receiver in the DAC has to then sync to and typically strip away and reclock again--all part of the weakness of S/PDIF AES/EBU interfaces which can be debated elsewhere).

 

Products in the category of the REGEN et al, should have a USB B input and a USB A output.

 

Owning, examining, and listening to most all of the devices in this category, I could discuss technical strengths and weaknesses of each design, but as the manufacturer of the leading one (recently past the 3,000 unit mark) it probably not be ethical of me to do so. I will say this: for those of you with a REGEN and a wandering/wondering eye/ear, you might want to sit tight for another month or so as John Swenson and I do have some significant surprises in the works (and they are far enough along for me to be comfortable hinting at them).

 

Have a great week all.

 

--Alex C.

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Is the USB->Ethernet bridge device +target device going to be in the works again soon?

 

Hey, I thought this was a "curated" thread and that off-topic questions were strictly verboten. ;)

 

But no, our big USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge for OEMs (UEABO) project has been on hold for the past six months while John has been working on the Sonore microRendu and the complex UpTone mystery 3.3/5/7V 1-amp LPS (the core of which is a platform for many future applications and likely OEM licensing). Plus we are close to releasing another surprise (listening to pre-production now) that will very much be "on-topic" to this thread. :)

 

Would love to come back to the UEABO soon as none of the Ethernet DAC solutions that have appeared (save the microRendu though that is still USB into the DAC) are nearly as elegant and universally compatible as what we were proposing. But busting apart the USB protocol to put Ethernet in the middle takes time, though the XMOS chips John is using are certainly able to simultaneously handle both USB and Ethernet (that's the heart of the computer "dongle" side of UEABO). When/if we do turn back to it, much has been learned in the past year that might find its way into the solution as well. But again, this is meant as an Ethernet input board for DAC manufacturers. No point to doing it as a USB-output product. We want the I2S to be inside the DAC to run from the DAC master clock.

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It took some time to read the threads. After that, can I understand that Intona >RUR >REGEN?

 

Like the Audioquest Jitterbeg, the W4S Recovery (RUR) puts a common-mode choke (actually two of them) on the data lines. So if you like the sound of the Jitterbug, you might prefer the RUR over the REGEN.

 

Beyond that, the RUR uses the same hub chip as the REGEN, but uses far noisier voltage regulators; and for some unexplained reason uses a switching regulator circuit for the 5VBUS.

 

Horses for courses as they say...

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I think we should probably leave it a neutral end-user to comment on the technology used by W4S, and its ensuing sound quality.

 

You are undoubtedly correct, and I wish to apologize to the group. Such is not my style at all and I regret not restraining myself from making the post. It was a reaction to the generalization the fellow made about there being a consensus that the Intona is best and the REGEN last. These are each different devices, using different methods, functioning in different ways, and having listened to them all (in as unbiased a way as I could), I really do not think a one-size-fits all conclusion is possible.

 

Again, my apologies…

 

--Alex C.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Just to be clear, ALL DACs that use digital isolators place then AFTER the USB PHY and processor. Isolation and improved signal integrity BEFORE entering the DAC (i.e. with hub-based devices like the Recovery and REGEN, etc.--as well as galvanic isolators such as the Intona) is still effective with DACs that claim to "galvanically isolate" their USB input because once the DAC's PHY and processor generate ground-plane and packet-data noise and voltage spikes, it is very hard to get rid of the effect. Here is some more in depth on that topic from John Swenson:

 

"Isolators [after the USB input PHY and processor] help but are not nearly the panacea many people think. Let's travel through the system and look at both the power and signal and what happens to them as we go through the system.

 

So lets start with a USB receiver with bursts of high frequency noise on both the power and ground planes. This PG (power/ground) noise will modulate the data being sent to the isolators. It will slightly increase jitter and the amplitude of the pulses will vary with the noise.

 

This noisy power also goes into the driver side of the isolator. The signal going across the barrier (light, EM waves, magnetic field etc) gets modulated by this PG noise as well. The PG noise also changes the threshold of the input receivers, adding jitter to the signal.

 

On the other side of the barrier we have a couple things happening, the varying signal level, caused by the PG noise in the driver, also causes the receiver current to change, even with no signal applied. Thus the receiver causes PG noise on the "clean side" directly related to the PG noise on the "dirty side" It is definitely attenuated, but not by nearly as much as most people expect. Then we also have traditional logic noise caused by the fact the output is a normal logic signal, every time the output changes it creates noise on the PG planes on the clean side. The jitter on the signal created by the PG noise on the dirty side is still there PLUs jitter introduced by the isolation scheme. This jitter changes the spectrum of the logic noise on the PG planes on the clean side.

 

So then we feed the signal through a reclocking flop, which is supposed to get rid of all that jitter on the input. Well it helps, but no reclocking flops are completely effective. The PG noise at the flop still causes jitter to show up on it's output, PG noise changes the threshold where the flop detects the "switch" of the clock, thus increasing jitter on the output.

 

The result of this chain is that PG noise on the "dirty side" can still make it through to the "clean" side. It IS attenuated, but not completely gone.

 

Cascading such stages can theoretically help, but in order for that to work the reclocking clock has to get fed back through the isolators which significantly degrades the clock so it turns out cascading doesn't help much. (a two-stage cascade does make things better, but not by a huge amount)."

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Thank you for the reply Mr. Wyred4Sound :) Will add to the list. What voltage level do we need to increase to before we break the barrier?

 

Hi Gary:

 

Your question does not make sense in the context that of the way digital isolators are used deep into a DAC. They are not at the input, they are AFTER both the USB PHY and processor, on the I2S/DSD lines. So voltage hits are not at all an issue that far in.

Not to say that the isolators (probably the TI capacitive ones in the W4S units) don't have a high voltage rating, it just is not a concern.

 

Now if you were looking at actual USB isolator chips (ADuM or the like; which no DAC designer uses at the input--those ADuMs are full speed only and are lousy for other reasons), then isolation voltage rating might be relevant (though ESD seems to be more of port killer in my experience).

 

Hope that helps.

 

--Alex C.

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