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Sonicorbiter - Native DSD support


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I am trying to getmy new Bryston BDA-3 DAC setup with my mR in native DSD. Wheneverthe BDA-3 changes DSD rate there is a loud pop. With DOP there is nopop when changing DSD rate. If I connect direct to the BDA-3 withoutthe mR there is no pop in direct DSD when changing DSD rates. I amseeing this problem with both HQPlayer and Room. Since the pop onlyhappens when using my mR is there some change I make with the mR tomute the pop?

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I am trying to getmy new Bryston BDA-3 DAC setup with my mR in native DSD. Wheneverthe BDA-3 changes DSD rate there is a loud pop. With DOP there is nopop when changing DSD rate. If I connect direct to the BDA-3 withoutthe mR there is no pop in direct DSD when changing DSD rates. I amseeing this problem with both HQPlayer and Room. Since the pop onlyhappens when using my mR is there some change I make with the mR tomute the pop?

 

Switch to Roon by itself. Then try adjusting the Resync Delay in Roon / Settings.

 

Screen Shot 2016-10-06 at 12.22.00 PM.png

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Switch to Roon by itself. Then try adjusting the Resync Delay in Roon / Settings.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29596[/ATTACH]

 

I set in a couple different Resync Delays. Now when Roon is playing back Native DSD and switches DSD rate my DAC immediately shows the change in rate and I hear a loud pop. The start of playback is delayed by whatever I set in Resync Delay. When I remove my mR from the playback path and Roon changes DSD rate I hear no pop when Native DSD rates change.

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I set in a couple different Resync Delays. Now when Roon is playing back Native DSD and switches DSD rate my DAC immediately shows the change in rate and I hear a loud pop. The start of playback is delayed by whatever I set in Resync Delay. When I remove my mR from the playback path and Roon changes DSD rate I hear no pop when Native DSD rates change.

 

There is nothing more that can be done. I'll email Roon and see if they have that DAC for testing to check things out.

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There is nothing more that can be done. I'll email Roon and see if they have that DAC for testing to check things out.

 

I just heard back from the Roon guys and they do not have your DAC in house for testing. Have you tried the DLNA output mode to see how that works for you?

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I just heard back from the Roon guys and they do not have your DAC in house for testing. Have you tried the DLNA output mode to see how that works for you?

 

Thanks for checking with Roon.

 

I had the same popping with HQPlayer. I also did try DLNA with JRMC but was unable to get that working and couldn't figure out what was wrong. I will give it another try later today.

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I just heard back from the Roon guys and they do not have your DAC in house for testing. Have you tried the DLNA output mode to see how that works for you?

 

 

I was able to get DLNA working and got loud pops when DSD rates changed with my mR in the signal path. When I removed my mR the pops went away.

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I was able to get DLNA working and got loud pops when DSD rates changed with my mR in the signal path. When I removed my mR the pops went away.

 

Okay. I have been testing here with my DACs. I'm getting noise when I stop and pause. There is also noise when I change rates as well. It really depends on where the transition occurs and if there is silence at the start of the next track. Is this what you are finding?

 

I also have an email into Chris (he is a RMAF this weekend) because he reviewed the DAC with the microRendu in native DSD and he did not report the issue to me.

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With my mR out of the signal path and the volume up I can sometimes hear a slight tick with rate changes. During my previous testing of Roon and HQPlayer with mR the loud pop with rate change was universal. Now with JRMC the loud pop is usual but not always with rate change so I imported that playlist into Roon and the loud popping with this selection of files is less than universal like I was hearing in JRMC. When I have more time I will rerun the tests to see if I can see a pattern for pop and no pops. I hear no pops when stopping and restarting, only rate changes.

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With my mR out of the signal path and the volume up I can sometimes hear a slight tick with rate changes. During my previous testing of Roon and HQPlayer with mR the loud pop with rate change was universal. Now with JRMC the loud pop is usual but not always with rate change so I imported that playlist into Roon and the loud popping with this selection of files is less than universal like I was hearing in JRMC. When I have more time I will rerun the tests to see if I can see a pattern for pop and no pops. I hear no pops when stopping and restarting, only rate changes.

 

I have been testing a different DAC and this one has no noise at all. This is very much DAC specific issue.

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I also have an email into Chris (he is a RMAF this weekend) because he reviewed the DAC with the microRendu in native DSD and he did not report the issue to me.

 

Whenever you get a response from Chris I would interested in knowing if also experienced noise problems with the BDA-3 and native DSD.

 

I am also curious if you any thoughts on why my popping goes away when I remove my microRendu from the signal path to the BDA-3.

 

Thanks

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Whenever you get a response from Chris I would interested in knowing if also experienced noise problems with the BDA-3 and native DSD.

 

I am also curious if you any thoughts on why my popping goes away when I remove my microRendu from the signal path to the BDA-3.

 

Thanks

 

Will due. It seems to be DAC specific...I have one DAC that does it sometimes and another DAC that never does it. That one does is not XMOS based and the one that doesn't is XMOS based so the firmware would be very different, but in each case the microRendu is the same. It also seems to transcend the output mode. In the case of Roon and HQ Player they are both streaming what ever is passed through the microRendu so the player is the same as if you connected things direct.

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I have been testing a different DAC and this one has no noise at all. This is very much DAC specific issue.

Could all this relate somwhow to the issue previously raised by J.Swenson about pops with DSD:

This issue of pops with DSD is a very big issue with DSD. In PCM a stream of zeros outputs ground, so if something stops the data flow you just get ground out of the DAC. But with DSD a zero is full negative voltage and a one is full positive voltage. The ONLY way to get ground is to send a pulse stream that alternates between zero and one. If the data stream stops, even for a very short period of time you wind up with full negative voltage on the output. (which produces the very loud pop)

 

Any DSD DAC should not assume that the signal coming in is never going to stop, it should implement a circuit that keeps watch on the input stream and if it ever stops either immediately switches to a stream of alternating zeros and ones, OR turns on a transistor that clamps the output to ground. An output relay is not fast enough to protect against this.

 

Having built several DSD DACs I am VERY familiar with what can happen if you don't get this right!

 

John S.

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Could all this relate somehow to the issue previously raised by J.Swenson about pops with DSD:

 

 

That sounds reasonable to me. From the start I have just been having a problem getting my head around why I get the pops with native DSD thru my mR but not DOP and never when my mR is not in the signal path.

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That sounds reasonable to me. From the start I have just been having a problem getting my head around why I get the pops with native DSD thru my mR but not DOP and never when my mR is not in the signal path.

 

I can only speculate what happens with the signals when the DAC receives them. With DoP the DAC might be properly muting the DAC chip as it changes from PCM to DoP, etc. Its possible that the DAC is not properly muting the DAC with native DSD. What happens with other operating system is irrelevant because the DAC manufacturers in most cases have developed ASIO drivers to deal with these situations. With Linux most DAC manufacturers take a back seat to native DSD support. Only a few companies are actively involved in getting their gear properly supported.

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I just heard back from Roon who heard back from Bryston. They are saying that there had been pop problems, but a firmware update fixed them.

 

Wow! Thanks to you, Roon and Bryston for such a super fast response. I know on the RMAF weekend everybody had to be very busy.

 

One of the first things Ii did was to make sure my BDA-3 had the latest firmware and driver. I will e-mail Bryston today to see if they have anything later than what is on their WEB site or have any further suggestions.

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I just heard back from Roon who heard back from Bryston. They are saying that there had been pop problems, but a firmware update fixed them.

 

I was able to get up with tech support at Bryston today. They confirmed the DSD rate change popping problem. The firmware change to correct this is in the final QA process. ETA a week or two.

 

Ever hear back from Chris on his experience?

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I was able to get up with tech support at Bryston today. They confirmed the DSD rate change popping problem. The firmware change to correct this is in the final QA process. ETA a week or two.

 

Ever hear back from Chris on his experience?

 

That is great news. Nope.

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Hi Jesus:

 

I'm using the microRendu in DLNA mode with a CH Precision C1 DAC.

I'm only able to play DSD 64/128 using DoP.

Could you please check if it will be able to support native DSD now or in the future?

Thanks in advance.

 

The diagnostics and custom dac info related to my DAC:

 

DAC description: CH Precision USB Audio 2.0 20b1:307b

Diagnostic information for this DAC

CH Precision CH Precision USB Audio 2.0 at usb-ci_hdrc.1-1.1, high speed : USB Audio

 

Playback:

Status: Running

Interface = 1

Altset = 1

Packet Size = 228

Momentary freq = 176398 Hz (0x16.0cc0)

Feedback Format = 16.16

Interface 1

Altset 1

Format: S32_LE

Channels: 2

Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)

Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000

Data packet interval: 125 us

Interface 1

Altset 2

Format: S16_LE

Channels: 2

Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)

Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000

Data packet interval: 125 us

Interface 1

Altset 3

Format: SPECIAL

Channels: 2

Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)

Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000

Data packet interval: 125 us

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Hi Jesus:

 

I'm using the microRendu in DLNA mode with a CH Precision C1 DAC.

I'm only able to play DSD 64/128 using DoP.

Could you please check if it will be able to support native DSD now or in the future?

Thanks in advance.

 

The diagnostics and custom dac info related to my DAC:

 

DAC description: CH Precision USB Audio 2.0 20b1:307b

Diagnostic information for this DAC

CH Precision CH Precision USB Audio 2.0 at usb-ci_hdrc.1-1.1, high speed : USB Audio

 

Playback:

Status: Running

Interface = 1

Altset = 1

Packet Size = 228

Momentary freq = 176398 Hz (0x16.0cc0)

Feedback Format = 16.16

Interface 1

Altset 1

Format: S32_LE

Channels: 2

Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)

Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000

Data packet interval: 125 us

Interface 1

Altset 2

Format: S16_LE

Channels: 2

Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)

Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000

Data packet interval: 125 us

Interface 1

Altset 3

Format: SPECIAL

Channels: 2

Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)

Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000

Data packet interval: 125 us

 

It can be added and then requires testing. This will take some time though since we just recently updated the Linux Kernel.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Does the MR work with the Hegel H360 internal DAC via USB? I'm using Roon and it plays but without sound. The H360 is supposed to support native DSD and I have the MR set to that.

Thanks

Tony

It that device is not listed on page one of this is thread it does not support native DSD on Linux. You have to use DoP instead.

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