Genelec - What is the rave about?

[dustblue]

9 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

Trinnov is a stellar company, but software integration is best done on the hardware level, don't you agree? GLM has that built-in advantage. 

 

From what I gathered, many pros don't like Genelec because they sound "too good." I.e., it doesn't translate well on other systems. There's another horde that love them with a passion (Genelec had sold over 1 million monitors). But the naysayers don't go for kii; it's Adam and Focal e.t.c for them. 

 

If I were you, I'd test both systems, even if it entails shipping fees. That's going to be your baby for a long while....

 

 

 

Yeal that's why I bought both. last friday I almost bought a pair of Focal sm9(dealer's showroom product), it's the rust on the screws stopped me.

Hardware/software is actually not that important, the adjustments are always done somewhere in the signal pathway, for genelec & kii it's before DAC by DSP. If using third party DSP and then output to analog amp/speaker there would be actually no big differences.

 

Actually if Kii could expand their products line it would be very competitive to Genelec, I think the total Kii three sell volume is not exceeding 1000 pairs now, still many audiophiles even don't konw kii. Huge market for them. Bruno is really a genius.

 

 

[LowMidHigh]

On 10/25/2018 at 4:58 PM, dustblue said:

Yeal that's why I bought both. last friday I almost bought a pair of Focal sm9(dealer's showroom product), it's the rust on the screws stopped me.

Hardware/software is actually not that important, the adjustments are always done somewhere in the signal pathway, for genelec & kii it's before DAC by DSP. If using third party DSP and then output to analog amp/speaker there would be actually no big differences.

  

Actually if Kii could expand their products line it would be very competitive to Genelec, I think the total Kii three sell volume is not exceeding 1000 pairs now, still many audiophiles even don't konw kii. Huge market for them. Bruno is really a genius.

 

 

 

Hardware/software is actually not that important, the adjustments are always done somewhere in the signal pathway, for genelec & kii it's before DAC by DSP. If using third party DSP and then output to analog amp/speaker there would be actually no big differences.

 

Well, I may be completely wrong, but by my analysis superimposing an external DSP on a sound system isn’t as simple.  I’ll humor myself and share my thoughts.

 

By definition, as you pointed out, external DSP requires a piece of hardware sitting between the monitors and the source. That said gear potentially does A=>D and then manipulates each channel to reduce the dB at given frequency internals to produce the flattest possible curve. 

 

This part is relatively easy. But inherent issues arise in a typical application:

 

1. This procedure’s outcome is a bit imperfect signal. If the monitors/subs do any further processing, SQ degradation is to be expected.
2. The crossovers are fixed, so the external DPS can’t compensate for nulls with crossover adaptation (meaning, dynamically adjust the low/high passes).
3. The external DSP system can’t handle more than a pair of monitors and associated subwoofers. The reason is that in a multi-monitor setup, each component has to internally store its own profile, lest all the nodes on each channel play them same sound.
4. Gain adjustment could also be subject to SQ degradation if it’s done in the digital domain before the signal is transmitted into the monitors. The art of bit dithering is not arcane, but the outcome may be in conflict with the monitor design.

 

Again, although I’m a software engineer and relatively well-read, I may be completely wrong. I’ve gone astray many a time...But if I’m correct, it safe to say The GLM implementation puts all those issue to rest.

 

I hope you have a GLM kit on hand. Using the by-pass button is quite an experience. Likewise, I hope you have the subs around too. They make a profound difference.

 

Actually if Kii could expand their products line it would be very competitive to Genelec, I think the total Kii three sell volume is not exceeding 1000 pairs now, still many audiophiles even don't konw kii. Huge market for them. Bruno is really a genius.

 

The man is a paragon of excellence, and the Kii3 is a marvel. The cardioid concept is brilliant. Still, I think Kii operates in different market than Genelec. As you suggested, it primarily caters to audiophiles, with custom color selection, piano finish and attractive floor stands. The prices are to match . Their biggest challenge is acceptance; many audiophiles are averse to active systems. 

 

On the other hand, Genelec caters to pros with value in mind, and has many competitors nibbling at its heels. It just happens that their products have an incredible sound quality that makes inroads into the audiophile market. 

 

Genelec R&D is a different league than Kii, with an array of highly-trained engineers, 40 years of experience and hundreds of thousands of diverse installations to glean knowledge from. Its production facilities are cutting edge and somewhat unique, with expertise in aluminum casting, circuitry design and production, and in-house built drivers.

 

Audiophiles tend to change gear often, and I feel that for that reason many brands build their components for superb performance but not for longevity. Kii is a mild example: their finish is prone to scratches and chipping.  I dread the thought of their shape in 10 year’s time.  

 

Genetec systems are built to last. I’ve had a pair of 1030a for 20 years now, and they still go strong, with not a single problem. Even the casing is in a great shape. They maintain the market value too. In twenty years, would you be able to sale a pair of Kii for 50% of their original price? I somewhat doubt it. 

 

Enjoy the auditioning. It's always fun.

[dustblue]

33 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Hardware/software is actually not that important, the adjustments are always done somewhere in the signal pathway, for genelec & kii it's before DAC by DSP. If using third party DSP and then output to analog amp/speaker there would be actually no big differences.

 

Well, I may be completely wrong, but by my analysis superimposing an external DSP on a sound system isn’t as simple.  I’ll humor myself and share my thoughts.

 

By definition, as you pointed out, external DSP requires a piece of hardware sitting between the monitors and the source. That said gear potentially does A=>D and then manipulates each channel to reduce the dB at given frequency internals to produce the flattest possible curve. 

 

This part is relatively easy. But inherent issues arise in a typical application:

 

1. This procedure’s outcome is a bit imperfect signal. If the monitors/subs do any further processing, SQ degradation is to be expected.
2. The crossovers are fixed, so the external DPS can’t compensate for nulls with crossover adaptation (meaning, dynamically adjust the low/high passes).
3. The external DSP system can’t handle more than a pair of monitors and associated subwoofers. The reason is that in a multi-monitor setup, each component has to internally store its own profile, lest all the nodes on each channel play them same sound.
4. Gain adjustment could also be subject to SQ degradation if it’s done in the digital domain before the signal is transmitted into the monitors. The art of bit dithering is not arcane, but the outcome may be in conflict with the monitor design.

 

Again, although I’m a software engineer and relatively well-read, I may be completely wrong. I’ve gone astray many a time...But if I’m correct, it safe to say The GLM implementation puts all those issue to rest.

 

I hope you have a GLM kit on hand. Using the by-pass button is quite an experience. Likewise, I hope you have the subs around too. They make a profound difference.

 

Actually if Kii could expand their products line it would be very competitive to Genelec, I think the total Kii three sell volume is not exceeding 1000 pairs now, still many audiophiles even don't konw kii. Huge market for them. Bruno is really a genius.

 

The man is a paragon of excellence, and the Kii3 is a marvel. The cardioid concept is brilliant. Still, I think Kii operates in different market than Genelec. As you suggested, it primarily caters to audiophiles, with custom color selection, piano finish and attractive floor stands. The prices are to match . Their biggest challenge is acceptance; many audiophiles are averse to active systems. 

 

On the other hand, Genelec caters to pros with value in mind, and has many competitors nibbling at its heels. It just happens that their products have an incredible sound quality that makes inroads into the audiophile market. 

 

Genelec R&D is a different league than Kii, with an array of highly-trained engineers, 40 years of experience and hundreds of thousands of diverse installations to glean knowledge from. Its production facilities are cutting edge and somewhat unique, with expertise in aluminum casting, circuitry design and production, and in-house built drivers.

 

Audiophiles tend to change gear often, and I feel that for that reason many brands build their components for superb performance but not for longevity. Kii is a mild example: their finish is prone to scratches and chipping.  I dread the thought of their shape in 10 year’s time.  

 

Genetec systems are built to last. I’ve had a pair of 1030a for 20 years now, and they still go strong, with not a single problem. Even the casing is in a great shape. They maintain the market value too. In twenty years, would you be able to sale a pair of Kii for 50% of their original price? I somewhat doubt it. 

 

Enjoy the auditioning. It's always fun.

Yes man I agree with you for most of the parts.

External DSP could take digital input, even it's analog input trough ADC it's less likely to cause any audible differences, at least for my ears.

Crossover is indeed important, that's why active dsp monitors like kii & dutchdutch 8c are so in the heat right now. I bet Genelec would follow too, just need time.

 

Genelecs do keep their value very well, the durability is not something those emerging brands could compete with.

[dustblue]

After 4 days of listening and comparing with 8351 vs Kii Three, I think the difference between them is bigger than I initially thought.

 

Kii has more bass and clearer sound image, however sounds kind of lean and cold compare to 8351, I am very familiar with guitar sounds and 8351 express the guitar sounds better, warmer, more natural. Vocal seems the same.

 

I know it's still very short time, maybe later I would have more accurate feeling.