asdf1000 Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 14 minutes ago, pdickerson said: How do bit perfect renders sound different? I would be nice to see Roon supports response to this question? I may post It's been discussed a lot over on the Roon forum in the past. For example, people noting UPnP or SqueezeLite sounding better than RAAT. That's with bit perfect playback. Even with HQPlayer NAA - some people have even used Roon to up-sample to DSD512 and have HQPlayer just do 'passthrough' and to them it sounds better via NAA than via RAAT. Passing through the same bits to the same networked endpoint. You can certainly ask Roon but don't get your expectations too high for a response. To be fair to the Roon Team also, it's a tricky question to try and tackle and I don't blame them for avoiding it to be honest. From their end, RAAT is perfect but some people still say it sounds different to other streaming architectures (different - whether better or worse than others). Link to comment
Popular Post Axiom05 Posted November 20, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted November 20, 2018 Roon's stance seems to be that if the Signal Path shows lossless, then there is nothing more to be said. We all know that many music players sound different and I don't think anyone really understands why. Nevertheless, most of the people who create these programs are generally trying to improve the sound with each update. Roon doesn't seem to be concerned with absolute sound quality, only the feature aspect. Roon support weren't even interested in trying to reproduce what I was hearing, they are only concerned with what the Signal Path indicates. My experience with Roon was that it sounded like the upper mids & treble were boosted. This caused an over emphasis of harmonics changing voices and changing the tonal structure of instruments such as violin. This also gave Roon great depth and air but after a while it became quite obvious that there was something wrong musically. This was easy to demonstrate in my system, my wife picked up on it right away. To Sonore's credit, the ultraRendu did provide the "best" sound from Roon. The uR provided very smooth sound with no harshness but the harmonic emphasis remained. Albrecht and flkin 1 1 Main System: [Synology DS216, Rpi-4b LMS (pCP)], Holo Audio Red, Ayre QX-5 Twenty, Ayre KX-5 Twenty, Ayre VX-5 Twenty, Revel Ultima Studio2, Iconoclast speaker cables & interconnects, RealTraps acoustic treatments Living Room: Sonore ultraRendu, Ayre QB-9DSD, Simaudio MOON 340iX, B&W 802 Diamond Link to comment
Popular Post vortecjr Posted November 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Em2016 said: It's been discussed a lot over on the Roon forum in the past. For example, people noting UPnP or SqueezeLite sounding better than RAAT. That's with bit perfect playback. Even with HQPlayer NAA - some people have even used Roon to up-sample to DSD512 and have HQPlayer just do 'passthrough' and to them it sounds better via NAA than via RAAT. Passing through the same bits to the same networked endpoint. You can certainly ask Roon but don't get your expectations too high for a response. To be fair to the Roon Team also, it's a tricky question to try and tackle and I don't blame them for avoiding it to be honest. From their end, RAAT is perfect but some people still say it sounds different to other streaming architectures (different - whether better or worse than others). There are some notable differences worth mentioning. With Roon and NAA the Rendu is a pass though device. With MPD/UPnP and SqueezeLite the unit is a player or renderer. So the bits are coming out the same, but getting there by a different process. Maybe Jussi is a better person to ask than Roon as they seem more corporate these days. Not that I'm keeping track, but most people seem to prefer MPD/DLNA and NAA. asdf1000 and MikeyFresh 1 1 SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, vortecjr said: With Room and NAA the Rendu is a pass though device. With MPD/UPnP and SqueezeLite the unit is a player or renderer. What about with Audirvana playing to Rendu in UPnP mode? Does Audirvana behave similar to Roon Core and HQP Server in this case, i.e. A+ does the decoding and the Rendu acts like a pass through device? Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, Em2016 said: What about with Audirvana playing to Rendu in UPnP mode? Does Audirvana behave similar to Roon Core and HQP Server in this case, i.e. A+ does the decoding and the Rendu acts like a pass through device? RoonReady and NAA talk to Linux ALSA which outputs to your device. When you use A+ or JRiver PCM goes through MPD which then talks to Linux ALSA which outputs to your device. Remember though some UPnP streams can be FLAC or MP3 so MPD stands ready to decode these. Either way there is an application which receives the data and talks to ALSA. asdf1000 1 SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 1 minute ago, vortecjr said: RoonReady and NAA talk to Linux ALSA which outputs to your device. When you use A+ or JRiver PCM goes through MPD which then talks to Linux ALSA which outputs to your device. Remember though some UPnP streams can be FLAC or MP3 so MPD stands ready to decode these. Either way there is an application which receives the data and talks to ALSA. Cool thanks JR. Interesting. Link to comment
barrows Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 I am currently getting very good results via ROON and Signature Rendu SE. There are certainly no tonal anomalies vs. other players (I can measure that via RTA in room). When ROON first came out, I preferred both Minimserver DLNA/MPD and Audirvana+. But ROON has improved a lot in SQ. Now I also oversample to DSD 256 (both for my ESS 9038 based and DSC-2 DACs) and ROON is very, nice with DSD up conversions (depends on the DAC of course). All playback softwares do sound different though, and every system will probably respond a bit differently to different softwares, given all the variables. Of course I need to try HQPlayer/NAA at some point, as most feel Jussi's DSD conversion and SDM is the "best". I just do not have the hardware to handle it right now, and too many other things on my plate (DAC developments, etc). SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
R1200CL Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 9 hours ago, Em2016 said: Even with HQPlayer NAA - some people have even used Roon to up-sample to DSD512 and have HQPlayer just do 'passthrough' and to them it sounds better via NAA than via RAAT. Passing through the same bits to the same networked endpoint Interesting. I have HQPlayer on a PC, and I think I prefer Roon upsampling. I did also purchase HQPlayer for my SonicTransporter i5. But not tested yet. My question is, can you actually set up HQPlayer without any filter at all ? Just pure pass through out to the NAA ? (Picture of setting possible ?) Should we start a thread about tips and tricks how to get the best out of your Sonore products with the SW options possible ? The best SW trick one can do with Roon (or HQPlayer) is HAF I would say before you ever do any further investment, if you’re a Sonore or Roon or HQPlayer user, that’s your first step. (Assuming you done some Uptone and Ghent magic as well ?). Link to comment
Albrecht Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 20 hours ago, HumanMedia said: OK which do people think sounds the best? Reason I ask this is I trialled Roon about a year ago. Made sure all processing of the signal was swItched off. Verified this with a Roon support person. In the limited time I had to compare, LMS sounded repeatedly better than Roon. It was enough of an unexplained difference for me not to subscribe. But I had so little time with it to figure out why and the Roon client (and LMS player) have probably been rewritten since then, so the same comparison now may not give the same results. Anyone else hear differences between renderer clients on the Rendu? Any preferences on the basis of audio quality experienced? Hi, Appreciated your post. These are questions that I've been asking for quite a while. I know how to clean, organize, rip, and maintain an uncompressed music DB. And (to me) Tidal is a junk-ass, useless, POS, program that has very little music, very few good artists, and is completely unfair to artists that are there. (As Tidal goes, so does Roon). It seems that when discussing ROON, - no one seems to talk about the sound quality, nor comparisons to other, (free), players. I too installed ROON server on my beefed up RAM NAS, - and found that both MPD/DLNA, and LMS, sounded either the same, or slightly better than ROON with my ultraRendu. All one hears about is, "oh, - it found all my music," or, - ""it's so easy to play Britney Spears & Justin Timberlake on Tidal, oooh-oh-aahhhh" Aside from ranting on about all the Netflix-like homogenization of unoriginal and bad music in Tidal and the unreasonably obnoxious Roon focus on Tidal, - I also hate how Roon organizes the views of music by album pictures, - instead of the very clear text list with album pictures on the side of Album Artists in the Logitech remote IF. For people who are concerned about sound quality, - the constant ROON (&Tidal) sucking gets more than tiresome. R1200CL and JFaust 1 1 Link to comment
Albrecht Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 7 hours ago, barrows said: I am currently getting very good results via ROON and Signature Rendu SE. There are certainly no tonal anomalies vs. other players (I can measure that via RTA in room). When ROON first came out, I preferred both Minimserver DLNA/MPD and Audirvana+. But ROON has improved a lot in SQ. Now I also oversample to DSD 256 (both for my ESS 9038 based and DSC-2 DACs) and ROON is very, nice with DSD up conversions (depends on the DAC of course). All playback softwares do sound different though, and every system will probably respond a bit differently to different softwares, given all the variables. Of course I need to try HQPlayer/NAA at some point, as most feel Jussi's DSD conversion and SDM is the "best". I just do not have the hardware to handle it right now, and too many other things on my plate (DAC developments, etc). You make a good point. I certainly would find it possible that ROON could somehow improve their SQ. AND, Jesus' good point that it's very different if ROON is an endpoint and the "playing" occurs on the ROON server. In our building, - we have 7 devices connected to LMS server. And even though it's now possible to run SqueezeBox Touches with ROON, - I probably would deal with a little worse sound quality and get (what I think is better) user IF of LMS. For me, - in light of equality or the superiority of free LMS, - it should cost around $25 per year. running DSD files with ROON + HQPlayer is another argument in ROONs favor. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 6 hours ago, R1200CL said: My question is, can you actually set up HQPlayer without any filter at all ? Just pure pass through out to the NAA ? Yes, the "Direct SDM" setting in HQPe. So as I mentioned before, if you have Roon do the DSD512 up-sampling, you can have HQPe essentially in pass-through mode with the Direct SDM setting. This can then test RAAT vs NAA with the same chain and same endpoint and some people have still noted NAA sounds better, even though HQPe itself is doing no DSP in this specific example. I learnt of this test from @Miska himself - not for SQ comparisons but we were doing some troubleshooting and it was a good troubleshooting test at the time. R1200CL 1 Link to comment
John A Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Black Friday sale this year? Link to comment
soupcampbell Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/black-friday-cyber-monday Link to comment
R1200CL Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 1 hour ago, John A said: Black Friday sale this year? Looks like no Black Friday from Sonore. I was hoping for the Signature Rendu SE to be offered. Link to comment
barrows Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 37 minutes ago, R1200CL said: Looks like no Black Friday from Sonore. I was hoping for the Signature Rendu SE to be offered. Contact: [email protected] For pricing inquiries on the Signature Rendu SE, I believe it might still have sale pricing. R1200CL 1 SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
left channel Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 42 minutes ago, R1200CL said: Looks like no Black Friday from Sonore. I was hoping for the Signature Rendu SE to be offered. Good luck with the lead @barrows just posted! The Sonore contribution to Black Friday include both 'Rendus and the ultraDigital, in sale packages offered by Small Green Computer: https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/black-friday-cyber-monday R1200CL 1 Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 4 hours ago, John A said: Black Friday sale this year? Yes, but the forwarding link wasn’t working...it’s up now. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 2 hours ago, R1200CL said: Looks like no Black Friday from Sonore. I was hoping for the Signature Rendu SE to be offered. We are involved, but it’s hard to manage fixed inventory for a sale over two different websites so we have just one landing page over at Small Green Computer. If you don’t see what you are looking for just let us know. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 2 hours ago, left channel said: Good luck with the lead @barrows just posted! The Sonore contribution to Black Friday include both 'Rendus and the ultraDigital, in sale packages offered by Small Green Computer: https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/black-friday-cyber-monday The last package has an Signature Rendu in it... barrows 1 SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
left channel Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, vortecjr said: The last package has an Signature Rendu in it... Sorry I missed that! @R1200CL check out number 8: https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/black-friday-cyber-monday Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 What is selling very well is bundle #3 PS Audio i2s Bundle (ultraRendu, ultraDigital, and two 7V Linear Power Supplies) - $1149 (Save $371) - The perfect way to take advantage of the I2S Input on your PS Audio DAC BTW Its really LVDS i2s and it also works with other LVDS i2s DACs like Holo Spring, LKS, Gustard, and W4S. jventer 1 SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
R1200CL Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Who designed the 7VDC PS ? I would probably need 3 of those ? https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/7v-linear-power-supply?variant=12730873053218 Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 28 minutes ago, R1200CL said: Who designed the 7VDC PS ? I would probably need 3 of those ? https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/7v-linear-power-supply?variant=12730873053218 For the DAC? SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
rickca Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 35 minutes ago, R1200CL said: Who designed the 7VDC PS ? Sure looks like a ZeroZone. Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
R1200CL Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, vortecjr said: For the DAC? One for UltaRendu One for Singxer SU-1 One for the EtherRegen All powered by LPS-1.2. Link to comment
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