Sonore microRendu

[pipis2010]

US$750, not including power supply.

 

--David

 

No man, that's way too much!!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[vgrubb]

If the microRendu is under $1k, it will probably be a bargain.

[Germanboxers]

Lampi DSD...Ohhh, I am in love!!!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Are you suggesting the microrendu will be able to output native DSD to an Amanero Combo384 input LampizatOr DAC? Can anyone confirm this? Does the SonicOrbiter SE also support this?

 

If above is true...I'll buy a SonicOrbiter now and a microrendu immediately upon release.

[pipis2010]

Are you suggesting the microrendu will be able to output native DSD to an Amanero Combo384 input LampizatOr DAC? Can anyone confirm this? Does the SonicOrbiter SE also support this?

 

If above is true...I'll buy a SonicOrbiter now and a microrendu immediately upon release.

 

Sorry I misread his statement, really sorry!!! I do not know if the microRendu will play natively DSD256...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Germanboxers]

Sorry I misread his statement, really sorry!!! I do not know if the microRendu will play natively DSD256...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Well...Jesus R. has mentioned he (or someone?) is working on the Linux patch to allow native DSD on Amanero USB. I was hoping your comment indicated it was completed.

 

Jesus R., do you expect support for native DSD on Amanero USB prior to release of the microrendu? Will it also be applied (retroactively) to the Sonic Orbiter SE? If so, I can see a need in my situation for purchasing both.

 

Thanks,

 

Jordan

[pipis2010]

Well...Jesus R. has mentioned he (or someone?) is working on the Linux patch to allow native DSD on Amanero USB. I was hoping your comment indicated it was completed.

 

Jesus R., do you expect support for native DSD on Amanero USB prior to release of the microrendu? Will it also be applied (retroactively) to the Sonic Orbiter SE? If so, I can see a need in my situation for purchasing both.

 

Thanks,

 

Jordan

 

Is the native DSD playback a wider problem with Linux? I have the same problem with Daphile...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Germanboxers]

Is the native DSD playback a wider problem with Linux? I have the same problem with Daphile...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

I'm not Linux-aware...only know that there is some issue with native DSD and the Amanero board used in my LampizatOr.

[pipis2010]

I'm not Linux-aware...only know that there is some issue with native DSD and the Amanero board used in my LampizatOr.

 

Other than the native DAD issue, how does the Lampi sound in general? Is it as good as they say?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Cormorant]

How about we let this play itself out and change the topic? I'm getting close to setting the price on the micoRendu. What do you guys think it will be?

 

Jesus R

 

It looks to me like the microRendu will be positioned between the SonicOrbiter SE at the bottom end and the Signature Rendu at the top end. So there will be three solutions available at three different price points.

 

There is no way the SonicOrbiter SE would be discontinued now. It just came out, there was a good amount of development costs in it, it appears to be an excellent product, and it’s a pillar of the above mentioned tiered strategy. So 199 or 299 or even 399 for the microRendu, no way.

 

So here is one calculation on the price:

 

SonicOrbiter SE + (Signature Rendu)/2 = 300 + 2900/2 = $1750

 

Another way to find a price is to see what the “make vs. buy” breakdown is, i.e. how much would it cost us to replicate the features. This isn’t going to be very precise because I don’t believe we will be able to replicate the sound quality and feature set at this time, but here goes on a back of the envelope calculation. I’m sure others could come up with better estimates. No external power supply included:

 

Motherboard + Memory + Flash Storage + Case + DC/ATX Internal Power Supply + USB Corrector + USB Cable + OS + Software Value + High End USB Card (did I miss anything? – not sure of network isolation feature so just throwing in $50 there as a placeholder).

 

Asus Rock N3700-ITX , 4MB DDR3, 64 GB SSD, $100 case, … , $175 for Regen or similar, .. for Supra USB, run Linux so Free, Install various software packages like Roon Ready (not out yet on Linux), USB Paul Peng V4 or JCAT Card.

 

$100 (N3700-ITX) + $20 (DDR3) + $30 (SSD) + $100 (case) + $175 (Regen or equivalent), $44 (Supra USB) + $410 (JCAT or Paul Peng USB) + $50 (DC-ATX) + $50 (network isolation feature) = $979

 

Add on software costs and time spent messing about on top of that to taste.

 

I’d rather get a polished software system then install Roon Ready, DLNA, etc. on Linux myself. How about you guys that have never used Linux – what’s your time worth there? Knowing Linux myself and having installed it many times, what is my time worth? Quite a bit. I certainly don’t want to mess with it -- install it, support it long term, etc. Ugh. So for me add on about $500 to the $979.

 

Another way to price it is thinking about barriers to entry. Can another audio company produce such a product? How hard would it be to rip off the microRendu? And how soon could it be done? Maybe an initial higher price is in order because this is a unique device at this time, get back development costs, etc. And then give room to lower the price later when a competitor comes in. On the other hand, front loading a lower price could keep interest up, provide more enthusiasm to the market, etc. etc. I’m guessing they will front load a lower price as much as they feel they can.

 

Other thoughts: Is there anything patented in the microRendu? I haven’t heard that, but if so, that could increase the price because the barrier to entry for a competitor jumps up. What were the development costs of the device? Certainly a large factor. What is the potential size of the market? How much of a niche product is this? The more niche it is, the higher the price needs to be (see Signature Rendu, for instance). Now looking at the Logitech Squeezebox and it’s history – a lot of those were sold – the equivalent here is the SonicOrbiter SE. Same price, in fact. Not a coincidence, IMO.

 

But what about the next level up that the microRendu addresses? A high end fancy pants new era Squeezebox. How big is that market? This is a key point.

 

Another angle -- what are the marketing costs and support costs of the device going forward? This has to be calculated in the price, in order to make a fair profit. This is a software/hardware device with a huge amount of software and hardware user combinations possible and potentially high support costs.

 

These are the sort of things I’m guessing Jesus and Company are talking about in their smoky cigar smoke filled back room marketing sessions.

[orgel]

Are you suggesting the microrendu will be able to output native DSD to an Amanero Combo384 input LampizatOr DAC? Can anyone confirm this? Does the SonicOrbiter SE also support this?

 

Good question. I might be able to talk myself into a LampizatOr DSD-only Level 4 (balanced and with one of the high-DSD-rate upgrades) if I knew the answer was yes. I'm still a little dubious about the tubed power supply, but the LampizatOrs seem to get rave reviews for DSD sound quality, and that's pretty much the price point I'm contemplating.

 

--David

[pipis2010]

It looks to me like the microRendu will be positioned between the SonicOrbiter SE at the bottom end and the Signature Rendu at the top end. So there will be three solutions available at three different price points.

 

There is no way the SonicOrbiter SE would be discontinued now. It just came out, there was a good amount of development costs in it, it appears to be an excellent product, and it’s a pillar of the above mentioned tiered strategy. So 199 or 299 or even 399 for the microRendu, no way.

 

So here is one calculation on the price:

 

SonicOrbiter SE + (Signature Rendu)/2 = 300 + 2900/2 = $1750

 

Another way to find a price is to see what the “make vs. buy” breakdown is, i.e. how much would it cost us to replicate the features. This isn’t going to be very precise because I don’t believe we will be able to replicate the sound quality and feature set at this time, but here goes on a back of the envelope calculation. I’m sure others could come up with better estimates. No external power supply included:

 

Motherboard + Memory + Flash Storage + Case + DC/ATX Internal Power Supply + USB Corrector + USB Cable + OS + Software Value + High End USB Card (did I miss anything? – not sure of network isolation feature so just throwing in $50 there as a placeholder).

 

Asus Rock N3700-ITX , 4MB DDR3, 64 GB SSD, $100 case, … , $175 for Regen or similar, .. for Supra USB, run Linux so Free, Install various software packages like Roon Ready (not out yet on Linux), USB Paul Peng V4 or JCAT Card.

 

$100 (N3700-ITX) + $20 (DDR3) + $30 (SSD) + $100 (case) + $175 (Regen or equivalent), $44 (Supra USB) + $410 (JCAT or Paul Peng USB) + $50 (DC-ATX) + $50 (network isolation feature) = $979

 

Add on software costs and time spent messing about on top of that to taste.

 

I’d rather get a polished software system then install Roon Ready, DLNA, etc. on Linux myself. How about you guys that have never used Linux – what’s your time worth there? Knowing Linux myself and having installed it many times, what is my time worth? Quite a bit. I certainly don’t want to mess with it -- install it, support it long term, etc. Ugh. So for me add on about $500 to the $979.

 

Another way to price it is thinking about barriers to entry. Can another audio company produce such a product? How hard would it be to rip off the microRendu? And how soon could it be done? Maybe an initial higher price is in order because this is a unique device at this time, get back development costs, etc. And then give room to lower the price later when a competitor comes in. On the other hand, front loading a lower price could keep interest up, provide more enthusiasm to the market, etc. etc. I’m guessing they will front load a lower price as much as they feel they can.

 

Other thoughts: Is there anything patented in the microRendu? I haven’t heard that, but if so, that could increase the price because the barrier to entry for a competitor jumps up. What were the development costs of the device? Certainly a large factor. What is the potential size of the market? How much of a niche product is this? The more niche it is, the higher the price needs to be (see Signature Rendu, for instance). Now looking at the Logitech Squeezebox and it’s history – a lot of those were sold – the equivalent here is the SonicOrbiter SE. Same price, in fact. Not a coincidence, IMO.

 

But what about the next level up that the microRendu addresses? A high end fancy pants new era Squeezebox. How big is that market? This is a key point.

 

Another angle -- what are the marketing costs and support costs of the device going forward? This has to be calculated in the price, in order to make a fair profit. This is a software/hardware device with a huge amount of software and hardware user combinations possible and potentially high support costs.

 

These are the sort of things I’m guessing Jesus and Company are talking about in their smoky cigar smoke filled back room marketing sessions.

 

Excellent and extremely detailed answer! But we are talking about a small box!! Charging 1k and above for such a small box, no matter the patents or the innovations inside it, is a joke in my mind...just my 2p

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[photonblur]

Good Morning Jesus,

 

Currently using the ickStream plugin on a

squeezebox touch for Tidal. IckStream

has been solid with very good sound

quality. LMS and Tidal are installed on

a multiuse iMac. Your website states

that the Squeezelite output supports

Tidal. If I replace the sbt with a micro

rendu or sonicorbiter SE do I just select

Squeezelite output and the Tidal

configuration is complete?

 

What is the return policy?

 

If all sales are final a higher relative

price with a return/restock fee would

be preferable IMO.

 

pb.

[jhwalker]

Excellent and extremely detailed answer! But we are talking about a small box!! Charging 1k and above for such a small box, no matter the patents or the innovations inside it, is a joke in my mind...just my 2p

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

'

 

Agreed - if they want more than $299, they'll have to explain *very* well why this isn't just a Cubox with some upgraded components and a custom software load.

 

Sounds like I'm not the target audience for this - shame.

[pipis2010]

'

 

Agreed - if they want more than $299, they'll have to explain *very* well why this isn't just a Cubox with some upgraded components and a custom software load.

 

Sounds like I'm not the target audience for this - shame.

 

I think they will have to charge more than the SE, because otherwise it will cannibalise the price and sales of the unit...that's just my business mind talking out loud (wink) (wink)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[jhwalker]

I think they will have to charge more than the SE, because otherwise it will cannibalise the price and sales of the unit...that's just my business mind talking out loud (wink) (wink)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

See, I was looking at this as a stripped down SE (i.e., USB-only, instead of USB+optical), *not* an upgrade. That's why I was interested in it *as opposed to* the SE, since I don't need optical and was hoping for a lower price.

 

Obviously, I've missed the point.

[sm31]

See, I was looking at this as a stripped down SE (i.e., USB-only, instead of USB+optical), *not* an upgrade. That's why I was interested in it *as opposed to* the SE, since I don't need optical and was hoping for a lower price.

 

Obviously, I've missed the point.

 

Yes. It IS stripped down in terms of outputs, but it's niche will it's high-quality implementation, whereas the SE is just using generic hardware. So clearly it will cost more.

[jtwrace]

I thought I knew where this product stacked up compared to the other Sonore offerings but now I'm confused. Heck, I'm even confused to what it actually is supposed to do do now.

[Germanboxers]

Other than the native DAD issue, how does the Lampi sound in general? Is it as good as they say?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

It is every bit as good as "they" say. Most DAC's make for relatively subtle, though meaningful, differences...the Lampy was revolutionary from the first note in comparison to my Luxman DA-06.

 

Back to thread...I'm currently using a lightweight Linux Nuc as NAA, so limited to DSD128 DoP. Would really like to believe the microrendu will be able to overcome this limitation.

[pipis2010]

It is every bit as good as "they" say. Most DAC's make for relatively subtle, though meaningful, differences...the Lampy was revolutionary from the first note in comparison to my Luxman DA-06.

 

Back to thread...I'm currently using a lightweight Linux Nuc as NAA, so limited to DSD128 DoP. Would really like to believe the microrendu will be able to overcome this limitation.

 

Are you using HQPlayer NAA or something else? Please do tell, as I am also interested in an NAA solution...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[pipis2010]

I think you have hit the nail on the head here but a lot of what you wrote beyond this I disagree with (perhaps). The mircoRendu is obviously (by its name) aims as being closer to the Rendu which (iirc) was sold for around $1300.

 

 

Sorry but your "fair amount of development costs" is similar to the amount of work that is put into things like Volumio and Rune. No disrespect to Jesus as you are also paying for support, but the SonoreOrbiter SE is a Cubox ($150) with open source software pre-installed.

 

 

I'm not sure your comparison is very relevant ... as for software / development costs I assume there is a lot of crossover from the SonicOrbiter SE and a similar Freescale processor is used. I maybe completely wrong... But the SonicOrbiter SE appears almost a prototype / trial for the microRendu ... Testing the functionality available.

 

On the other hand, Auralic suggested they spent $1million on developing the Lightning DS platform and that equally uses a lot of Open Source software.

 

 

I really don't think there is anything unique in the microRendu concept. Sonore have come up with a custom SBC but there is nothing stopping other manufacturers going the same route.

 

 

Well not really. The Squeezebox (long before it was owned by Logitech) was completely bespoke software and hardware where as the SonicOrbiter SE could be copied by anyone buying CuBox or other boards off the shelf. Yes you need someone who is skilled at putting together a Linux distribution and writing scripts but that's all.

 

 

Well there is a market as serviced in different ways by Auralic, Aurender, Sim Audio, Melco, Bryston and other...

 

 

Marketing and support costs are likely the biggest part of this. Jesus and company are of course needing to make a profit and I'm not criticising them for that...

 

They spent 1 million on a buggy app? That's what people say, except for their new Lightning iPhone app, which is supposed to be greatly improved and stable...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[miguelito]

How about we let this play itself out and change the topic? I'm getting close to setting the price on the micoRendu. What do you guys think it will be?

 

Jesus R

I think $400 would be a fair price - with a barebones SMPS. More than $500 for this would not be reasonable I don't think.

[jumper]

It looks to me like the microRendu will be positioned between the SonicOrbiter SE at the bottom end and the Signature Rendu at the top end. So there will be three solutions available at three different price points.

 

There is no way the SonicOrbiter SE would be discontinued now. It just came out, there was a good amount of development costs in it, it appears to be an excellent product, and it’s a pillar of the above mentioned tiered strategy. So 199 or 299 or even 399 for the microRendu, no way.

 

So here is one calculation on the price:

 

SonicOrbiter SE + (Signature Rendu)/2 = 300 + 2900/2 = $1750

 

Another way to find a price is to see what the “make vs. buy” breakdown is, i.e. how much would it cost us to replicate the features. This isn’t going to be very precise because I don’t believe we will be able to replicate the sound quality and feature set at this time, but here goes on a back of the envelope calculation. I’m sure others could come up with better estimates. No external power supply included:

 

Motherboard + Memory + Flash Storage + Case + DC/ATX Internal Power Supply + USB Corrector + USB Cable + OS + Software Value + High End USB Card (did I miss anything? – not sure of network isolation feature so just throwing in $50 there as a placeholder).

 

Asus Rock N3700-ITX , 4MB DDR3, 64 GB SSD, $100 case, … , $175 for Regen or similar, .. for Supra USB, run Linux so Free, Install various software packages like Roon Ready (not out yet on Linux), USB Paul Peng V4 or JCAT Card.

 

$100 (N3700-ITX) + $20 (DDR3) + $30 (SSD) + $100 (case) + $175 (Regen or equivalent), $44 (Supra USB) + $410 (JCAT or Paul Peng USB) + $50 (DC-ATX) + $50 (network isolation feature) = $979

 

Add on software costs and time spent messing about on top of that to taste.

 

I’d rather get a polished software system then install Roon Ready, DLNA, etc. on Linux myself. How about you guys that have never used Linux – what’s your time worth there? Knowing Linux myself and having installed it many times, what is my time worth? Quite a bit. I certainly don’t want to mess with it -- install it, support it long term, etc. Ugh. So for me add on about $500 to the $979.

 

Another way to price it is thinking about barriers to entry. Can another audio company produce such a product? How hard would it be to rip off the microRendu? And how soon could it be done? Maybe an initial higher price is in order because this is a unique device at this time, get back development costs, etc. And then give room to lower the price later when a competitor comes in. On the other hand, front loading a lower price could keep interest up, provide more enthusiasm to the market, etc. etc. I’m guessing they will front load a lower price as much as they feel they can.

 

Other thoughts: Is there anything patented in the microRendu? I haven’t heard that, but if so, that could increase the price because the barrier to entry for a competitor jumps up. What were the development costs of the device? Certainly a large factor. What is the potential size of the market? How much of a niche product is this? The more niche it is, the higher the price needs to be (see Signature Rendu, for instance). Now looking at the Logitech Squeezebox and it’s history – a lot of those were sold – the equivalent here is the SonicOrbiter SE. Same price, in fact. Not a coincidence, IMO.

 

But what about the next level up that the microRendu addresses? A high end fancy pants new era Squeezebox. How big is that market? This is a key point.

 

Another angle -- what are the marketing costs and support costs of the device going forward? This has to be calculated in the price, in order to make a fair profit. This is a software/hardware device with a huge amount of software and hardware user combinations possible and potentially high support costs.

 

These are the sort of things I’m guessing Jesus and Company are talking about in their smoky cigar smoke filled back room marketing sessions.

 

So you're suggesting the MicroRendu should equal the sound quality of a purpose built PC specified as you outlined? I know the MicroRendu is stated to have cutom internals for audiophile use but it seems like asking a lot from it to equal a CAPS style build, no?

[Germanboxers]

Are you using HQPlayer NAA or something else? Please do tell, as I am also interested in an NAA solution...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Yes, I use HQPlayer on a fast i7 computer in my office and a small Nuc running Linux and Jussi's NAA.

[Cormorant]

So you're suggesting the MicroRendu should equal the sound quality of a purpose built PC specified as you outlined? I know the MicroRendu is stated to have cutom internals for audiophile use but it seems like asking a lot from it to equal a CAPS style build, no?

 

Hi Jumper,

 

Welcome to the new era.

[Cormorant]

A lot of people would consider it easier to get better sound quality from an lower powered computer connected to a DAC than a CAPS. The idea is that the Ethernet isolates the DAC from "noise" created by the high processing power.

 

Much more to it than that. Read the designer John Swenson's posts on the subject for more information.