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esldude

Those who own Audioquest cable...what do you think?

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While it is possible that there might be some as yet undiscovered physics that might explain interconnect sound, it is also pretty highly unlikely. And while I won't close the door on such a possibility completely, I have to point out that if such an unknown quantity did exist, then it's affect on areas of electronics other than just a low-frequency signal like audio would have surely been noticed by someone somewhere by now. IOW, the chance of such a phenomenon altering only the sound of electrically transmitted music, and nothing else, would seem to be all but impossible.

 

That's just crazy talk.

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I really didn't want to disclose this. I don't want to be considered a shill.

 

I just wanted to qualify my experience with the placebo effect. I believe it to be real, but I also believe as with many other things in life that the more you do something the better control you have over it.

 

I've asked the administrator to remove the links that have been posted to the website.

 

Yes, in some ways the more you do something the better you become at it and maybe the better control you have. I don't extend that all that far with sighted listening or placebo effects. You are simply repeated a common argument that in essence all that bias stuff applies to regular people, but not to someone like me.

 

If the effects are real then why not compare in a manner that eliminates the chance of sighted info effecting what you hear?


And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Yes, in some ways the more you do something the better you become at it and maybe the better control you have. I don't extend that all that far with sighted listening or placebo effects. You are simply repeated a common argument that in essence all that bias stuff applies to regular people, but not to someone like me.

 

If the effects are real then why not compare in a manner that eliminates the chance of sighted info effecting what you hear?

 

I'm just trying to share something with others here on this forum in my journey. No more or no less.

 

Not trying to imply I am better than anyone in anything at all. Quite the contrary, I have seen an improvement over the years of being able to distinguish real changes from not real changes.

 

It's really not that big a deal.


John Withem

 

Proprietor

JW Audio.

http://www.jwaudio.net/default.html

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I'm just trying to share something with others here on this forum in my journey. No more or no less.

 

Not trying to imply I am better than anyone in anything at all. Quite the contrary, I have seen an improvement over the years of being able to distinguish real changes from not real changes.

 

It's really not that big a deal.

 

Are you showing at Axpona?

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That's just crazy talk.

 

 

Really? Do tell. So you are saying that it's crazy of me to say that it is unlikely that there could be some as yet unknown characteristic of wire that is so special that it affects ONLY musical waveforms while ignoring all other analog signals? Wow!


George

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As a cable manufacturer, I have to agree that placebo effect is real. BUT... through thousands of hours testing, I have been able to minimize the placebo effect and expectant (good or bad) in my mind through many hours of A-B testing and confirmation with other highly regarded audiophiles..

 

I myself have noticed the difference between cheap RCA cables and good quality one's but there is certainly a point of diminishing returns which depends on your equipment. Now as for the 1 meter USB cable debate I'll buy into the USB decrappifier stuff a bit but spending hundreds of dollars on a 1m USB cable and claiming you can hear amazing differences is just absurd. The same with audiophile quality Ethernet cables. It's just silly. Transmitting a digital signal over copper cable at low bit rates (aka music) is just not that challenging of a job for the cable.

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If two cables have different loudness, it's because the less loud of the two has more series resistance than the louder of the two (wire is passive, it can have no gain without an active stage in it), and that's simply not a characteristic one would want in a conductor but could certainly, as you point out, occur with two cable s of wildly different lengths (say, 3 ft vs 100 ft). A cable can induce hum and noise if it is poorly shielded, but it can't generate it. Again, since wire is not an active component, it cannot oscillate. L-R-C and Z/frequency sums-up about all we know to measure about cable.

a] It's 3 feet to 300 feet (almost 100 meters) before you might have an audible difference.

b] The load is 10000 Ohms, no reasonable cable has enough resistance difference to make a meaningful fraction of a dB for realistic length cables.

c] Of course the cable can't generate it! This is all about the interconnect system. That's the output stage, the cable itself and the input stage. It's about the audio signal, the noise & interference picked up along the way. It's about the ringing, oscillation and other problems that the output stage might have driving a difficult cable.

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I myself have noticed the difference between cheap RCA cables and good quality one's but there is certainly a point of diminishing returns which depends on your equipment. Now as for the 1 meter USB cable debate I'll buy into the USB decrappifier stuff a bit but spending hundreds of dollars on a 1m USB cable and claiming you can hear amazing differences is just absurd. The same with audiophile quality Ethernet cables. It's just silly. Transmitting a digital signal over copper cable at low bit rates (aka music) is just not that challenging of a job for the cable.

 

I'll share what I've experienced in my short time with computer audio.

I started out with the Belkin Gold usb and went to a Belkin Pro and didn't really hear a difference.

 

I then bought the less expensive Pangea USB cable and heard a good improvement in body and clarity. A friend bought the more expencive Pangea USB cable and brought over to A-B the two. Our expectations were that the more expensive Pangea was going to sound better. It was to the contrary. The more expensive Pangea was somewhat confusing in the sonic signature. It wasn't balanced at all in my system.

 

It was a positive expectation that went in the opposite. I lived with the less expensive Pangea for a few weeks and the same friend called me up and wanted to bring a USB he had borrowed from his brother in-law, a Shunyata Venom USB cable.

 

The sound of the Shunyata was a great improvement over the Pangea. More energy, clarity and balance was clearly audible. I ended up buying one and still have it in my system.

 

I've recently purchase a Curious Cable and am waiting on it to arrive. I'm really not expecting it to be head and shoulders above the Shunyata, but I'm willing to see if the timber will be better to my liking.

 

I agree that there is a point of diminishing returns, and I may have reached that point with the Shunyata USB.

 

I will be surprised to hear a night and day difference in a USB over the Shunyata. But the difference in the Shunyata over the Belkin and Pangea in my system was a night and day difference.


John Withem

 

Proprietor

JW Audio.

http://www.jwaudio.net/default.html

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Really? Do tell. So you are saying that it's crazy of me to say that it is unlikely that there could be some as yet unknown characteristic of wire that is so special that it affects ONLY musical waveforms while ignoring all other analog signals? Wow!

 

Text does not convey the tone. I'm in complete agreement with you. I.E. You're making too much sense i.e. "That's just crazy talk".

 

Remember if you bring too much logic to the conversation they'll start asking for you to be banned.

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I'll share what I've experienced in my short time with computer audio.

I started out with the Belkin Gold usb and went to a Belkin Pro and didn't really hear a difference.

 

I then bought the less expensive Pangea USB cable and heard a good improvement in body and clarity. A friend bought the more expencive Pangea USB cable and brought over to A-B the two. Our expectations were that the more expensive Pangea was going to sound better. It was to the contrary. The more expensive Pangea was somewhat confusing in the sonic signature. It wasn't balanced at all in my system.

 

It was a positive expectation that went in the opposite. I lived with the less expensive Pangea for a few weeks and the same friend called me up and wanted to bring a USB he had borrowed from his brother in-law, a Shunyata Venom USB cable.

 

The sound of the Shunyata was a great improvement over the Pangea. More energy, clarity and balance was clearly audible. I ended up buying one and still have it in my system.

 

I've recently purchase a Curious Cable and am waiting on it to arrive. I'm really not expecting it to be head and shoulders above the Shunyata, but I'm willing to see if the timber will be better to my liking.

 

I agree that there is a point of diminishing returns, and I may have reached that point with the Shunyata USB.

 

I will be surprised to hear a night and day difference in a USB over the Shunyata. But the difference in the Shunyata over the Belkin and Pangea in my system was a night and day difference.

 

I would think something night and day would be easy to measure using external recording devices. A $300 Sony PCM 50 audio recorder it's far superior to the human ear in recording sound so I would think that utilizing a device like this in an A/B comparison and then running the results through Audacity or Audition slideshow quantifiable visible differences.

 

Seems sort of strange that cable manufacturers don't perform these types of tests.

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I would think something night and day would be easy to measure using external recording devices. A $300 Sony PCM 50 audio recorder it's far superior to the human ear in recording sound so I would think that utilizing a device like this in an A/B comparison and then running the results through Audacity or Audition slideshow quantifiable visible differences.

 

Seems sort of strange that cable manufacturers don't perform these types of tests.

 

I trust my ears no matter what a measurement says.


John Withem

 

Proprietor

JW Audio.

http://www.jwaudio.net/default.html

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Ha, but I don't trust your ears. You discuss measurable differences between your cables on your website -- have you actually measured them or is thus marketing?


Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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Ha, but I don't trust your ears. You discuss measurable differences between your cables on your website -- have you actually measured them or is thus marketing?

 

Don't take this personal. I'm not asking you to trust my ears. Trust your own ears. Jeez!


John Withem

 

Proprietor

JW Audio.

http://www.jwaudio.net/default.html

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Don't take this personal. I'm not asking you to trust my ears. Trust your own ears. Jeez!

Don't you understand? What we have hear might be called the "reverse placebo effect" that these objectivists continually suffer from. Even if they hear actual differences, they reject them as being real unless they can be confirmed by measurements or double blind tests. It is an article of faith that their ears cannot be trusted. :)


"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted"- William Bruce Cameron

 

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...I'm not asking you to trust my ears. Trust your own ears. Jeez!

 

I agree! Trust your own ears, not other people's ears.

 

Each individual uses their ear/brain/body system to listen to music, so how anything audio related sounds only applies to the person doing the listening. In short one can't listen for other people or trust in other people to listen for them.

 

A good reviewer will say to audition for yourself.

 

Trust no one!

 

Don't you understand? What we have hear might be called the "reverse placebo effect" that these objectivists continually suffer from. Even if they hear actual differences, they reject them as being real unless they can be confirmed by measurements or double blind tests. It is an article of faith that their ears cannot be trusted. :)

 

I agree completely with this.


I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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Don't you understand? What we have hear might be called the "reverse placebo effect" that these objectivists continually suffer from. Even if they hear actual differences, they reject them as being real unless they can be confirmed by measurements or double blind tests. It is an article of faith that their ears cannot be trusted. :)

 

That would make them "Measurebaiters" :)


John Withem

 

Proprietor

JW Audio.

http://www.jwaudio.net/default.html

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Don't take this personal. I'm not asking you to trust my ears. Trust your own ears. Jeez!

 

From your website:

1- Cryogenic Treatment. (72hr)

Cryogenic treated cables provide an extended dynamic range. In particular, high frequency range notes are much clearer and display less distortion. Measurements of cryo treated wires show that electrical and signal resistance is reduced after cryogenic treatment.

 

and

 

3- Helical Twisted.

I have pre-twisted the cable for you, which does a few things. 1- It gives a much wider bandwidth, lower inductance, and lower impedance . 2- It resists magnetic fields that are abundant in and around stereo equipment. 3- It makes cable management much easier.

 

Have you actually measured reduced resistance, higher bandwidth, lower inductance and impedance? I suspect not.

 

These are qualities that are described by measurements, but your resistance to providing them indicates to me that you are spitting out hogwash.


Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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Whilst I give as much importance to measurements as I do to listening evaluation, I agree that all manufacturers should provide specifications and measurements as good practice (a reasonably comprehensive set such as the technical evaluation of digital sources, amplification and speakers that we can find in magazines such as Stereophile, Hi-Fi News or Soundstage).

In this case - cables - a simple set of LCR specs would probably suffice.

 

I find measurements important in that they provide important information that can be used to correlate with my impressions and hopefully hint at possible causes for equipment shortcomings that came out of the listening assessment.

 

R


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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From the website:

3- Helical Twisted.

I have pre-twisted the cable for you, which does a few things. 1- It gives a much wider bandwidth, lower inductance, and lower impedance . 2- It resists magnetic fields that are abundant in and around stereo equipment. 3- It makes cable management much easier.[/Quote]

Well a Unshielded Twisted Pair (UTP) does:

1] If done with a big expensive machine like they make Cat6 cable with, it will increase bandwidth but that has nothing to do with audio.

It will lower inductance, but it will also increase capacitance which may be a problem for the output stage.

It will lower the Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance of the cable, but again this has nothing to do with audio.

2] UTP is good at reducing interference problems.

3] It very well could make cable management easier.

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From the website:

1- Cryogenic Treatment. (72hr)

Cryogenic treated cables provide an extended dynamic range. In particular, high frequency range notes are much clearer and display less distortion. Measurements of cryo treated wires show that electrical and signal resistance is reduced after cryogenic treatment.[/Quote]

A member of several audio forums is a wire and cryogenic expert at a major research laboratory.

He reports that:

a] The differences in electrical properties is trivial.

b] It can damage insulation and plastics.

c] The differences will disappear with just a small amount of handling.

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Don't you understand? What we have hear might be called the "reverse placebo effect" that these objectivists continually suffer from. Even if they hear actual differences, they reject them as being real unless they can be confirmed by measurements or double blind tests. It is an article of faith that their ears cannot be trusted. :)

 

That's a 'way out there' thought. This entire thread is predicated on what Mark Waldrep of AIX Records heard. A (subjective) difference of HDMI cables in a potential AQ marketing video and then measured the audio (objective) and confirmed his subjective observation with objective data.

 

Come to find out they messed with the audio in post production.

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From the website:

 

A member of several audio forums is a wire and cryogenic expert at a major research laboratory.

He reports that:

a] The differences in electrical properties is trivial.

b] It can damage insulation and plastics.

c] The differences will disappear with just a small amount of handling.

I understand that the cryogenic treatment is done to bare wire, before any insulation or jacket is installed. If such is the case, people can draw their own conclusions about the individual's 'expertise'.


"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted"- William Bruce Cameron

 

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I understand that the cryogenic treatment is done to bare wire, before any insulation or jacket is installed. If such is the case, people can draw their own conclusions about the individual's 'expertise'.

 

Maybe some do, but then the third point kicks in. There are also companies that will freeze whatever cables or even entire amps you send them.

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That would make them "Measurebaiters" :)

 

Use lithium batteries and it works better.

 

Maybe some do, but then the third point kicks in. There are also companies that will freeze whatever cables or even entire amps you send them.

 

Part of the service we are offering as a room treatment for headphone users, is a whole head cryo ... we find it makes the soundstage brittle at first ... if you completely reverse the cryo, the soundstage becomes mushy. Best to keep at 45 degrees F along with an EtOH recirculator.


Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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