Those who own Audioquest cable...what do you think?

[jabbr]

The logical fallacy in your argument is the a priori assumption that every possible measurable characteristic is currently known, to the exclusion of any potential discoveries in the future. As I see it, your position can otherwise be stated as: Unless a difference heard between cables can be demonstrably measured, the difference heard cannot be real.

 

a) you are saying that the differences in sound between cables is or might be due to an as yet undiscovered physics that will alter quantum electrodynamics and change the very understanding of the world as we know it? are you suggesting this is possible?

 

b) the placebo effect is real, very very real.

[Paul R]

What I am saying is that cables should be treated as purely mechanical entities whos function and behavior are actually incredibly well known and measurable.

 

Human hearing is not anywhere near this level.

 

If two cables behave identically in every measurement known to mankind, then will sound identically except for expectation bias and measurement error. That is for certain.

 

I am not claiming that there is any minimal audible difference, just that for a difference to be audible (aside from either measurement error or placebo effect) it must be measurable.

 

But the placebo effect is dramatically audible and so may swamp other effects. Basically those new shiny, big thick heavy and expensive cables that you need to be brought into a dark private room to feel and listen to, might sound different, and make you want those cables at home -- just throw out your everyday boring cables that have been with you for 20 years

 

I basically agree with you in the main, but in the details - ah - there is the devil. For example, you assume anything that cannot be measured must be the result of a placebo like effect. But what the brain does with music is very complex, and is not well measured. And very real, not a placebo like effect at all. Listening to music causes real, physical changes in the brain's activity. To me, that leaves room for a bit of doubt.

 

But however, as you point out, we can clearly say, that the audible change we might hear is not caused by LCR differences.

 

-Paul

[Teresa]

You evidently know nothing whatsoever about electronics, music related or not.

 

Correct observation as I am and have always been more interested in the music. That is why I said:

 

It’s music that is special and magical. Audio equipment and cables are used to reproduce music. We just want that magic in our listening rooms, we let others worry about physics, music is the important thing.

 

I will try to more clearly state my music concerns. What is different about digital music files versus digital text files is that digital music files must be converted to analog to be heard as music. My concern is for the sound quality of the music after digital to analog conversion. That is why I said the signal in a non-audio file doesn’t need to image well, doesn’t need warm, full and powerful bass, doesn’t need an accurate midrange, doesn’t need smooth beautiful high frequencies, doesn’t need convincing ambiance, etc. as those types of signals don’t reproduce music, so any noise and/or distortions in the file would never be heard.

 

By the way, you still haven't told me why your portrait in your avatar is colored blue.

 

The lighting was blue.

You misunderstood, I didn't ask you how you made your avatar blue, I asked why you made it blue.

[Teresa]

…define exactly what "fancy and expensive" cables are…

 

I think the answer would depend on what economic class the person is in. Personally, I consider speaker cable over $5 a foot, and analog and/or digital interconnects over $50 expensive.

 

…treating human hearing as a purely mechanical function does not provide definitive answers. But psycho-acoustics is still one of the fuzzy sciences, because it is fantastically difficult to measure exactly what one is actually hearing once processed in the brain…

 

I agree with this.

 

...for a difference to be audible (aside from either measurement error or placebo effect) it must be measurable..

 

For this to be true we would have to be able to measure everything, and I don’t believe that to be so as famous audio designer John Curl has told me that we can only measure a very small percentage of what we can hear.

 

The distortions added by the brain itself are hard or impossible to measure.

 

This I agree with. The most obvious is cognitive bias, see: Problem of cognitive bias in AB Testing

 

Even with perfectly identical inputs, the brain doesn't always see or hear the same thing. We cannot presently measure what someone actually heard.

 

I also agree with this.

[jabbr]

I basically agree with you in the main, but in the details - ah - there is the devil. For example, you assume anything that cannot be measured must be the result of a placebo like effect. But what the brain does with music is very complex, and is not well measured. And very real, not a placebo like effect at all. Listening to music causes real, physical changes in the brain's activity. To me, that leaves room for a bit of doubt.

 

But however, as you point out, we can clearly say, that the audible change we might hear is not caused by LCR differences.

 

-Paul

 

We might be in complete agreement:)

 

What the brain does with music is indeed not well understood, and my statement about measurements applies specifically to cables and not to brains!!

 

First of all it would be extremely unlikely to find two brains/people who measure the same.

 

Listening to music does cause real physical changes in the brain (which are measurable:)

Similarly does the placebo effect cause real physical changes in the brain (which are similarly measurable)

 

The placebo effect is used to describe changes essentially caused by the null hypothesis. The flip side of that is that the brains sensory abilities are vast and able to react to inputs that you might not imagine.

 

For example: which causes a bigger change in SQ?

a) audiophile Ethernet cable

b) very comfortable listening chair

[Audio_ELF]

At the end of the day: I don't think you can dismiss the possibility that very small (close to unmeasurable) changes may be able to make a change which some people may be able to notice during listening. This is mathematically demonstrable in the form of chaos theory.

 

However: you also cannot dismiss nor fully take into account and adjust for so called "placebo" affects.

[jabbr]

At the end of the day: I don't think you can dismiss the possibility that very small (close to unmeasurable) changes may be able to make a change which some people may be able to notice during listening. This is mathematically demonstrable in the form of chaos theory.

 

However: you also cannot dismiss nor fully take into account and adjust for so called "placebo" affects.

 

Very small signals are easily measurable using proper equipment-- understandably this equipment may not be available to the hobbyist. Nonetheless our ability to measure goes down to single electrons-- we aren't talking about gravity waves here. Well maybe some of these cables are really really heavy so ...

 

Chaos theory is relevant as the organizing principle of this forum:) but certainly strong nonlinearities exist;)

 

For an everyday example consider MRI imaging which employs signals emanating from hydrogen atoms whose nuclear spin decays from up to down. Maybe the images would be sharper, more focused or more realistic if they use Audioquest cables internally:)

[Jud]

Eloise, jabbr - I don't think we need to go to chaos theory or anything near as exotic, nor to changes at the edge of measurement capability. I think we can find in solid, prosaic science reasons not to be quite satisfied that we know completely what it takes to provide high fidelity reproduction of music.

 

At the moment I don't have time to say more, but hope to contribute something more detailed later this evening or tomorrow.

[jabbr]

Eloise, jabbr - I don't think we need to go to chaos theory or anything near as exotic, nor to changes at the edge of measurement capability. I think we can find in solid, prosaic science reasons not to be quite satisfied that we know completely what it takes to provide high fidelity reproduction of music.

 

+1

[plissken]

a) you are saying that the differences in sound between cables is or might be due to an as yet undiscovered physics that will alter quantum electrodynamics and change the very understanding of the world as we know it? are you suggesting this is possible?

 

b) the placebo effect is real, very very real.

 

Remember that we can send men to the moon, color photos back from Pluto, smash Atoms together and prove theories 100 years old but the entire science establishment is staring at 3 foot section of extremely limited bandwidth cable with abject bafflement about people hearing sighted differences with cables that measure either identically or well with in the margin of error.

[Paul R]

We might be in complete agreement:)

 

What the brain does with music is indeed not well understood, and my statement about measurements applies specifically to cables and not to brains!!

 

First of all it would be extremely unlikely to find two brains/people who measure the same.

 

Listening to music does cause real physical changes in the brain (which are measurable:)

Similarly does the placebo effect cause real physical changes in the brain (which are similarly measurable)

 

The placebo effect is used to describe changes essentially caused by the null hypothesis. The flip side of that is that the brains sensory abilities are vast and able to react to inputs that you might not imagine.

 

For example: which causes a bigger change in SQ?

a) audiophile Ethernet cable

b) very comfortable listening chair

 

Yes, but I think you miss that the Placebo effect is by definition, caused by a non active agent being introduced into the situation. Music is a very active agent, and given the human brain's massive capability for pattern matching and prediction, even very minute changes might make a change.

 

I don't think active brain scans have been done with cable comparisons yet, so I tend to leave the question undecided. I know I can hear cable differences in my systems, but I also know the cables I am comparing are not identical. If they were, I would not be comparing them...

[jabbr]

Yes, but I think you miss that the Placebo effect is by definition, caused by a non active agent being introduced into the situation. Music is a very active agent, and given the human brain's massive capability for pattern matching and prediction, even very minute changes might make a change.

 

Placebos are quite active -- they come in all shapes and colors and flavors!

 

But yes even minute changes might make a difference.

I don't think active brain scans have been done with cable comparisons yet, so I tend to leave the question undecided. I know I can hear cable differences in my systems, but I also know the cables I am comparing are not identical. If they were, I would not be comparing them...

 

Exactly. I am assuming that if you heard a difference between two cables that were identical that you would draw a conclusion?

 

size, color, brand, packaging are all measurable quantities;)

[jabbr]

 

I don't think active brain scans have been done with cable comparisons yet, so I tend to leave the question undecided. I know I can hear cable differences in my systems, but I also know the cables I am comparing are not identical. If they were, I would not be comparing them...

 

Part II:

 

Suppose you hear a difference between two cables which are by all measures identical except for two features:

 

A) jacket color yellow, price tag in upper right corner: $100

B) jacket color gray, price tag in upper right corner: $1000

 

What do you conclude? Cables are different or your brain has connections between occipital and frontal lobes and auditory cortex? Or cables are different by an as yet undiscovered third feature which is not measurable?

[Paul R]

Part II:

 

Suppose you hear a difference between two cables which are by all measures identical except for two features:

 

A) jacket color yellow, price tag in upper right corner: $100

B) jacket color gray, price tag in upper right corner: $1000

 

What do you conclude? Cables are different or your brain has connections between occipital and frontal lobes and auditory cortex? Or cables are different by an as yet undiscovered third feature which is not measurable?

 

I would ask my wife to listen to them, without telling her the price first. Preferably without drawing her attention to the visual aspects.

 

The conclusions I would draw would depend upon whether she heard a difference or not.

[JW Audio]

This are some very good points in this thread.

As a cable manufacturer, I have to agree that placebo effect is real. BUT... through thousands of hours testing, I have been able to minimize the placebo effect and expectant (good or bad) in my mind through many hours of A-B testing and confirmation with other highly regarded audiophiles.

 

I try to keep my finds to myself when introducing the cable (or other equipment) to my beta testing friends.

 

It seems that I have been able to reduce the effect (but not 100%) to a minimum with repetitive testing through this journey of high end audio.

[Audio_ELF]

This are some very good points in this thread.

As a cable manufacturer, I have to agree that placebo effect is real. BUT... through thousands of hours testing, I have been able to minimize the placebo effect and expectant (good or bad) in my mind through many hours of A-B testing and confirmation with other highly regarded audiophiles.

 

I try to keep my finds to myself when introducing the cable (or other equipment) to my beta testing friends.

 

It seems that I have been able to reduce the effect (but not 100%) to a minimum with repetitive testing through this journey of high end audio.

JW Audio ... first off if you are a manufacturer you should declare who you work for.

 

Second ... how do you KNOW you are "able to minimize the placebo effect and expectant (good or bad) in my mind" ... thats a circular argument thats always used?

 

A specific question ... when you are "introducing the cable (or other equipment) to my beta testing friends" do you use the false positive situation - that is tell them the cable has changed when it hasn't. They should then be able to tell you there is no improvement.

[plissken]

JW Audio ... first off if you are a manufacturer you should declare who you work for.

 

Going to take a guess here:

 

JW Audio - Welcome

[Audio_ELF]

Going to take a guess here:

 

JW Audio - Welcome

Yeah okay ... :-p

[JW Audio]

I really didn't want to disclose this. I don't want to be considered a shill.

 

I just wanted to qualify my experience with the placebo effect. I believe it to be real, but I also believe as with many other things in life that the more you do something the better control you have over it.

 

I've asked the administrator to remove the links that have been posted to the website.

[jabbr]

I really didn't want to disclose this. I don't want to be considered a shill.

 

I just wanted to qualify my experience with the placebo effect. I believe it to be real, but I also believe as with many other things in life that the more you do something the better control you have over it.

 

I've asked the administrator to remove the links that have been posted to the website.

 

No need to, I don't think you've been shamelessly promoting

 

Are the differences between your cables measurable?

[The Computer Audiophile]

I really didn't want to disclose this. I don't want to be considered a shill.

 

I just wanted to qualify my experience with the placebo effect. I believe it to be real, but I also believe as with many other things in life that the more you do something the better control you have over it.

 

I've asked the administrator to remove the links that have been posted to the website.

Hi JW Audio - To abide by the rules of CA you need to list your industry affiliation in your signature line.

[JW Audio]

Just checking to see if the signature I added works.

[Audio_ELF]

Just checking to see if the signature I added works.

It does.

[gmgraves]

If two reasonable interconnect cables have different loudness, then one has background noise, interference, ringing or oscillation problems. However if we are talking about 100 meter long cables then there might be small level differences.

 

If two cables have different loudness, it's because the less loud of the two has more series resistance than the louder of the two (wire is passive, it can have no gain without an active stage in it), and that's simply not a characteristic one would want in a conductor but could certainly, as you point out, occur with two cable s of wildly different lengths (say, 3 ft vs 100 ft). A cable can induce hum and noise if it is poorly shielded, but it can't generate it. Again, since wire is not an active component, it cannot oscillate. L-R-C and Z/frequency sums-up about all we know to measure about cable.

[gmgraves]

a) you are saying that the differences in sound between cables is or might be due to an as yet undiscovered physics that will alter quantum electrodynamics and change the very understanding of the world as we know it? are you suggesting this is possible?

 

b) the placebo effect is real, very very real.

 

While it is possible that there might be some as yet undiscovered physics that might explain interconnect sound, it is also pretty highly unlikely. And while I won't close the door on such a possibility completely, I have to point out that if such an unknown quantity did exist, then it's affect on areas of electronics other than just a low-frequency signal like audio would have surely been noticed by someone somewhere by now. IOW, the chance of such a phenomenon altering only the sound of electrically transmitted music, and nothing else, would seem to be all but impossible.