AlainGr Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 If you want snake oil, at least raise a snake and make you own oil. Alain Link to comment
occamsrazor Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Spend more for your DAC than you do on your PC, network, NAS, cables, tweaks, etc., but not more than you spend on speakers. Give DAC quality a careful but sensible priority in your scheme, as opposed to tweaks, cables, added boxes, etc. If you do, many issues tying up the verbiage in countless threads here and elsewhere will just be irrelevant, I believe. But, also, try DSP room correction. If you can find a even remotely more effective sonic improvement than that, shout from the rooftops and let us all know. But, I do not think it exists. And, likely, it will be far cheaper than your PC. +1 great advice :-) Mac Mini > RME ADI-2 DAC > Hypex Ncore monoblocks > ATC SCM-11 speakers & C1 subwoofer Link to comment
Ajax Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 For those just starting out be aware of the many differing views (even between well seasoned experts and professionals) on what is or is not important for good sound. Don't procrastinate - get started listening to music asap with a minimum outlay by buying a sub $200 DAC (dragonfly v2, explorer v2 , IFi Nano etc) connecting it between your existing computer and existing stereo. Buy some decent software - J River (MAC & PC), Roon (MAC & PC) or Audirvana (MAC only) for $75 - $125 and rip your CDs to a $100 2TB hard drive. Up and running for under $400. You can now enjoy decent sound while reading the various arguments between the subjectives and objectives including recording techniques, formats, DAC filters, the importance of adequate amplification, active vs passive speakers, speaker location, room treatment etc etc. The thing is to not spend too much early while you are learning and not to be overwhelmed by the amount of grandstanding that takes place and just get started ... when you understand better what YOU want you can then relegate the cheap DAC to the home office or a second system for the kids. LOUNGE: Mac Mini - Audirvana - Devialet 200 - ATOHM GT1 Speakers OFFICE : Mac Mini - Audirvana - Benchmark DAC1HDR - ADAM A7 Active Monitors TRAVEL : MacBook Air - Dragonfly V1.2 DAC - Sennheiser HD 650 BEACH : iPhone 6 - HRT iStreamer DAC - Akimate Micro + powered speakers Link to comment
realhifi Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 My best advice is don't read about it, go hear it for yourself. Hear for yourself whether you think a pair of floorstanders is better than a pair of bookshelf speakers or if you like the "feel" of a components controls or if you think a higher powered amp sounds better than a lower one, etc, etc. Don't put too many variables into a decision. If you think it's good it probably is. As Ivor Tiefenbrun once said, "just listen". (This is obviously advice for someone shopping for a system but some of the same advice relates to those who already have one) David Link to comment
Moosbrugger Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 If, in order to determine whether there is a difference in sound quality between two devices, two version of a music file (i.e., redbook v. hji-res), etc., you need to engage in testing conditions that don't resemble real world listening conditions, just get the less expensive option. A Hudson Valley Home: Kichels -- A Recipe from the Old Country Link to comment
4est Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Buy Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound". Enjoy and appreciate what you already have. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
christopher3393 Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 All things excellent are as difficult as they are rare. Link to comment
davidbeinct Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 When buying new (to you) components, do your research, narrow it down, and look hard at the used market. Audiophiles are always selling barely broken in gear, use that to your advantage. Link to comment
realhifi Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 When buying new (to you) components, do your research, narrow it down, and look hard at the used market. Audiophiles are always selling barely broken in gear, use that to your advantage. Sometimes it's pretty difficult to hear that used piece of gear is the only problem. If you can see, touch, listen and inspect it then by all means it's a great way to save some money. David Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 When buying new (to you) components, do your research, narrow it down, and look hard at the used market. Audiophiles are always selling barely broken in gear, use that to your advantage. Please don't "do your research" by visiting dealers and using their demo facilities when you have no intention of purchasing (unless you let them know you likely will not buy through them and they are happy). Support and encourage your dealer to stay in business, otherwise when you need them they will no longer by there! Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
Emcee Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Please don't "do your research" by visiting dealers and using their demo facilities when you have no intention of purchasing (unless you let them know you likely will not buy through them and they are happy). Support and encourage your dealer to stay in business, otherwise when you need them they will no longer by there! Dealers: Please stop trying to sell us, overrated, overpriced gear and expensive cables that often don't live up to the hype. Be honest with your customers, we're not all wealthy and probably won't get another shot at buying a decent system for a few years(if ever). However, if we're happy with our purchase we'll recommend you to others or better still, others will see/hear our systems, be pleasantly surprised that it didn't cost a fortune and want to get into hifi. Try innovating - do away with the stuffy pretentious atmosphere, create a more informal, inviting, relaxed one and PLEASE enough with the Diana Krall, Nils Lofgren, etc crap (we're not stupid and know it's going to sound good on anything). Turn us on to some REAL music for real people. Dig out innovative products that offer good VFM. Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Dealers: Please stop trying to sell us, overrated, overpriced gear and expensive cables that often don't live up to the hype. Be honest with your customers, we're not all wealthy and probably won't get another shot at buying a decent system for a few years(if ever). However, if we're happy with our purchase we'll recommend you to others or better still, others will see/hear our systems, be pleasantly surprised that it didn't cost a fortune and want to get into hifi. Yes I agree it works both ways ... though I find these days its the dealers who provide such service who are still in business (though your milage may vary). Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
Emcee Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Yes I agree it works both ways ... though I find these days its the dealers who provide such service who are still in business (though your milage may vary). One service that's generally lacking is help in properly setting up a system afterwards. You listen to some gear in an acoustically treated environment, spend your hard earned cash on it based on that only to struggle with the sound once set up at home. That's usually when the endless upgrade merry-go-round begins. I suppose some dealers may view this as a good thing but they might want to look into offering better after sales advice as a means to keep customers happy and hopefully less prone to buying online. Bottom line - you can't get good hands on advice and service online. Dealers should consider capitalizing on that. Just saying... Link to comment
Jud Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 One service that's generally lacking is help in properly setting up a system afterwards. You listen to some gear in an acoustically treated environment, spend your hard earned cash on it based on that only to struggle with the sound once set up at home. That's usually when the endless upgrade merry-go-round begins. I suppose some dealers may view this as a good thing but they might want to look into offering better after sales advice as a means to keep customers happy and hopefully less prone to buying online.Bottom line - you can't get good hands on advice and service online. Dealers should consider capitalizing on that. Just saying... Get Better Sound - Get Better Sound One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Paul R Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 One service that's generally lacking is help in properly setting up a system afterwards. You listen to some gear in an acoustically treated environment, spend your hard earned cash on it based on that only to struggle with the sound once set up at home. That's usually when the endless upgrade merry-go-round begins. I suppose some dealers may view this as a good thing but they might want to look into offering better after sales advice as a means to keep customers happy and hopefully less prone to buying online.Bottom line - you can't get good hands on advice and service online. Dealers should consider capitalizing on that. Just saying... Just adding $0.02 along the lines of this subject - do not ignore equipment usually snubbed by audiophiles, like Audio/Video receivers, Sonos, and even some soundbars. You may find gold there, especially the products that offer some form of DSP. Nothing fixes a room with poor acoustics save changing/treating the room. But good DSP can go a long way without costing very much at all. And with good equipment in a moderately well treated room, it can work near miracles. Not a be-all end-all, but as others have suggested, don't snub it. -Paul Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
wgscott Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 [ATTACH=CONFIG]23214[/ATTACH] Get Better Sound - Get Better Sound That's a great book, and the accompanying DVDs are well worth obtaining as well. If you have the cash, you can even fly the author out for a visit. It's like the hi-fi equivalent of the dog whisperer. Link to comment
Allan F Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Try innovating - do away with the stuffy pretentious atmosphere, create a more informal, inviting, relaxed one and PLEASE enough with the Diana Krall, Nils Lofgren, etc crap (we're not stupid and know it's going to sound good on anything). Turn us on to some REAL music for real people. Dig out innovative products that offer good VFM. ALWAYS bring or demand to hear music, preferably acoustic, with which you are very familiar when you audition audio gear. "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
wgscott Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Buy Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound". That reminds me, it was you who first recommended that to me. Again, thank you. Link to comment
wgscott Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Here's another Forrest-inspired bit of advice: Build it yourself. I built my own Class D amp. The basic guts cost about $300, and the final product with pimped-out custom face plate was about $1K (well, I added a second amp board, so probably make that $1.2K now). Although it is by no means perfect, I made it myself and it sounds (to me at least) way better than anything I have heard in the $1K price range (as of 3 or 4 years ago anyway). At some point I might try to build my own DAC/pre. Link to comment
blownsi Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Trust your ears. If you think it sounds good then it does. You don't need confirmation from a magazine or a hundred people on the internet. PS: Get Better Sound is well worth the price IMHO Link to comment
Emcee Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Just adding $0.02 along the lines of this subject - do not ignore equipment usually snubbed by audiophiles, like Audio/Video receivers, Sonos, and even some soundbars. You may find gold there, especially the products that offer some form of DSP. Nothing fixes a room with poor acoustics save changing/treating the room. But good DSP can go a long way without costing very much at all. And with good equipment in a moderately well treated room, it can work near miracles. Not a be-all end-all, but as others have suggested, don't snub it. -Paul I agree and still own a lowly SB Touch despite what many say. After having owned/sold an A/V receiver years ago I have recently began pondering if it might be possible to enjoy good stereo (music) AND the convenience of an A/V receiver's DSP function. In other words - are there any musically satisfying A/V receivers out there that don't cost the price of a Ferrari? Link to comment
davidbeinct Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Please don't "do your research" by visiting dealers and using their demo facilities when you have no intention of purchasing (unless you let them know you likely will not buy through them and they are happy). Support and encourage your dealer to stay in business, otherwise when you need them they will no longer by there! I'm probably being over-sensitive, but I'd like to point out that nowhere did I recommend people use dealers listening facilities as part of their research. I agree completely with Eloise, if you go to dealers for help you owe them a good change to get your business, not buying used or going to Amazone et. al. So, by research I meant reading, listening to friends gear, shows, etc... Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I agree and still own a lowly SB Touch despite what many say. After having owned/sold an A/V receiver years ago I have recently began pondering if it might be possible to enjoy good stereo (music) AND the convenience of an A/V receiver's DSP function. In other words - are there any musically satisfying A/V receivers out there that don't cost the price of a Ferrari? Arcam ... Especially now they have added DIRAC Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
sdolezalek Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I think we could all benefit from thinking about how much we are clinging to personal views about how things should be or how they should sound when we post here. By definition, this is the bleeding edge of the audiophile world so the latest in software and hardware and theory is likely to show up here first. I'm actually amazed at how quickly most of us are willing to "rethink" our realities and make investments into new technologies like Roon, Tidal, HQPlayer, Regen, Sonic Orbiter SE, Dirac, etc., and maybe even MQA. It shows there are a lot of open minds and (especially among us older crowd) still a lot of flexible brains here. But before you post, think about whether you are posting with that open mind or with a "this is how I see the world and the way it want it to remain" perspective. While the disagreements between open and less open minds make for lots of interesting reading, they sure can confuse the heck out of any newbie who wanders here looking for help. Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO P4000 Win10>Qobuz+Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>DSD512> Fiber Switch>Ultrarendu (NAA)>Holo Audio May KTE DAC> Bryston SP3 pre>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6) Link to comment
Paul R Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 I agree and still own a lowly SB Touch despite what many say. After having owned/sold an A/V receiver years ago I have recently began pondering if it might be possible to enjoy good stereo (music) AND the convenience of an A/V receiver's DSP function. In other words - are there any musically satisfying A/V receivers out there that don't cost the price of a Ferrari? Lots and lots of them in the $1K-$2.5K range. NAD, Cambridge Audio, Onkyo, Anthem, Marantz, come to mind for me, but there are plenty of others. Even the higher end Sony, Pioneer, and other "consumer" brands can do an admirable job depending upon what you are looking for. If you want to put a little more money into it, you can get units that compete with most audiophile choices. ($4K - $6K). The Outlaw Audio model 975 is a steal in my opinion, though you have to add your own amps to it. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
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