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MQA at CES


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There's a very interesting thread on the Roon forums about MQA. Worth a read, IMO:

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tidal-to-launch-mqa-hi-res-audio-streaming-in-2016/5408

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

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The way I read it full optimization requires certified hardware, whether or not that requires a firmware update or entirely new delivery from UPS will depend on the DAC. Clearly Meridian is saying some meaningful benefit will accrue using any DAC where the MQA implementation is done via software.

 

[Emphasis mine.]

 

This is my interpretation of what Meridian is saying, too. There are already companies promising hardware or software support, including at least one smartphone manufacturer. I haven't heard any demos, so I have no opinion on how good MQA is, but the full ADC-to-DAC implementation is interesting to me conceptually. No matter how good MQA actually is, though, Meridian is in a chicken-and-egg situation, and it's going to take a substantial critical mass of "partners" for this to succeed. Not unlike @jeffmudrick, I'm thinking MQA will have to work wonders at the low end (smartphones, streaming) to be a success.

 

You can't accuse Meridian of failing to dream big.

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

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Otherwise this thread seems to have spun off its axis, left the rails, gone astray.

 

+1. Seems like there's some rampant over-speculation going on.

 

To me, the whole episode with Auralic posting something on FaceBook, disappearing it, and then issuing a correction suggests it was Auralic that got a little bit ahead of reality, not necessarily Meridian. (I don't own any products from either company; the closest I get is having a user license for Roon.) My reading suggests that the term "MQA certified (or certificated ;))" will be reserved for DACs (and devices with DACs therein) that MQA deems satisfactory for doing the end-to-end thing. I think MQA software decoding will likely go by another official name. (And that's my contribution to the over-speculation.)

 

Auralic has a well-documented history of over-promising (admittedly something that's easy to do when software's involved), so I don't think people should read too much into this episode.

 

I think folks should probably cool their collective jets and wait until there are some actual products that are actually MQA capable.

 

FWIW.

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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…I believe Tidal is a pretty big deal to many of us, and the fact that they are (as of this hour - anyone at CES right now who can report on the latest developments??) going to switch over from a de facto open standard (of the last 30+ years: CD 16/44) to a propriety/closed "magic box" solution is worth a bit of discussion to say the least...

 

Okay, I get that part — Tidal's a big deal to me, too — but it's still probably better to see what exactly Tidal is streaming for MQA when they start doing it, and how the Tidal (or in my case, Roon) software decoder handles it.

 

I understand Miska's perspective, I think (up to the limits of my overall technical knowledge), and while his objections are valid and could affect me and other HQP users, we're now talking about a small subgroup of a small subgroup of the potential MQA "audience." For the time being, at least, I'm going to hope that the MQA software decoder used in Tidal and Roon will unfold MQA files to some flavor of standard FLAC that's at least Red Book quality. I can't predict success, but I'm pretty certain that the vocal cadre of Roon/HQP users will put as much pressure as they can on the Roon team to ensure that HQP continues to work at least as well as it currently does with Tidal via Roon (which is pretty darn great, BTW).

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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Should not that read "to a non-MQA DAC or software decoder"?

 

Yes, that's a key piece of the puzzle, and to my knowledge, no one on CA has used an MQA software decoder on the MQA files available now.

 

I get Miska's "closed format" objections, and I can see the impact that widespread adoption of MQA could have on him and small developers like him (and their customers in turn). However, I think that until it becomes clear what the software decoder can and can't do and in what form(s) it will be available, there's not much point in setting one's hair on fire.

 

Note that Roon and Tidal have both stated they're going to provide software decoding capability. As a Roon (and HQP) customer, I have a hard time believing Roon would buy in to a "solution" that yields a net reduction in quality. And contrary to what's been implied upthread, Roon is a separate company from Meridian and MQA. (The top-tier guys at Roon all worked at Meridian for a while as a consequence of Meridian's purchase of Sooloos — they were the original developers of Solos — but they left Meridian to start Roon.)

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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Additionally, why fuck would MQA fuck over Auralic? They knowingly did. My Conspiracy theory is that there really is no MQA chip this can all be done with firmware which is why Auralic was all set.

 

This is completely unsubstantiated. It's based on a Facebook post that was taken down by Auralic and replaced with a much more temperate post that, among other things, deprecates the post that was "disappeared."

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

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By hiving off, I mean separated from Meridian, perhaps better described as hiving off the idea. I've no idea what the various interests are in that company. It was going to be Sooloos 2 and was shown quietly at CES 2015, thought to be "awesome" but spun off at the last minute.

 

Sooloos still belongs to Meridian. I don't know what Meridian is doing with it. Roon has nothing to do with Sooloos. (The auto-correct really wants "Sooloos" to be "Solos".) The Roon idea is kind of like Sooloos, except Roon is software only (and way better :)).

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

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This was from John Buchanan, CEO of Meridian

 

"Hi Everyone,

 

I wanted to let you know that Meridian has agreed a deal to transfer the company’s software applications business to a newly established entity, Roon Labs, headed up by Enno Vandermeer. I am sure that you will see this announcement appear across other media outlets but wanted to share this information with you all directly.

 

This news is very positive for both the newly formed Roon Labs and for Meridian Audio, allowing each company to grow by concentrating upon their core strengths. "

 

Maybe I misunderstood it, how would you interpret it?

 

I would interpret it as follows: They're two separate companies. The announcement doesn't say anything about Roon being any part of Meridian or vice versa. (Maybe Meridian has a stake in Roon — I don't know that that info is publicly available — but if you spend time hanging out on the Roon forums, there's sure no sign that anyone from Meridian is calling the shots.) I think you'll see that Meridian will be selling more "Roon-ready" devices and fewer Sooloos devices as time goes by. So they'll be licensing software from Roon, just like PS Audio, Auralic, Exasound, Sonore, etc.

 

I think a lot of audio hardware companies would happily outsource all their software-related activities. From what I see, it's extremely rare that a hardware outfit has the kind of expertise needed to perform well in this area (see, e.g., Auralic). I also think it's extremely rare for an elite group of software engineers to be happy in a place run by hardware engineers. (How this relates to MQA's prospects, I can't say.)

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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This was pulled by Auralic not MQA. The fact is we really have no idea what's going on.

 

I agree completely, but it's clear that no one is interested in this kind of (reasonable) stuff.

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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Does that make Bob Stuart Jesus?? Trying to keep things straight here.

 

Myself, I see Bob Stuart as Tommy and Robert Harley as Ann-Margret.

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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Add now Peter ("I cried" ) McGrath of Wilson to the growing list of the body snatched . It's a zombie apocalypse.

 

Thanks for that link. I'm usually not all that swayed by expert opinions, but in McGrath's case, (1) his idea of what sounds good would seem to be in the same general area as mine, and (2) it's hard to see how'd he'd be acting out of self-interest in making those laudatory remarks, since AFAIK, Wilson only makes speakers.

 

I'll maintain my skepticism but also my curiosity to have a listen for myself.

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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Has any consumer-oriented encoding method (audio only) ever succeeded in the long term? I don't mean things like mp3 as the original masters are unaffected but MQA-encoding of the masters is irreversible.

 

Not sure I follow how MQA is different from MP3 or AAC in this respect. Are you saying you don't think MQA-besotted content creators will save a non-MQA-encoded version of their masters? That would seem to be both imprudent and unlikely.

 

Also, as others have explained, Tidal says it will be pushing MQA files at me (in my case via Roon, also part of the zombie apocalypse), so I'll get to see what the software side of MQA is like from the comfort of my listening sofa without additional expenditures. If it's really terrible, I can cancel my Tidal subscription, but it's hard to see why Tidal and Roon would knowingly go with new technology that makes things sound worse. I'm currently enjoying how Tidal's 44.1/16 FLAC streams sound via Roon/HQP, so if that goes off a cliff, I'll be sorely disappointed. It's just hard for me to think that's probably what's going to happen. Time will tell.

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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After reading computer audiophile newest article detail about MQA it confirms my already suspicions about MERIDIAN vs AURALIC who embarrassed AURALIC and the truth will come out sooner then you think.

 

Big mea culpa if you turn out to be wrong?

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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…I believe there is more to the story. Auralic was prepared with MQA firmware streamer upgrade which Auralic already encoded with their streamer. Now just for the record I am a new Auralic Vega owner. I don't own a streamer at this moment and not in a rush either. But something is off with MQA.

 

My guess is the problem was that Auralic and MQA were on the same page when it came to Auralic's DAC-less streamers but that things went pear-shaped because Auralic was trying to say the Aries Mini (which includes a DAC) was MQA kosher (or halal, or whatever they call it).

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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  • 2 weeks later...
[T]he "free market" in reality is not all that free, and a format such as MQA has particular advantage in the way it can fundamentally change and dominate a market when key players have the will to make it happen.

 

Here's a list of the of the MQA partners on the MQA website when I looked just now:

 

Content partners

2L

 

Streaming and download partners

7digital

Tidal

Onkyo Music

Kripton HQM Store

 

Playback partners

Pioneer

Mytek

Onkyo

Bluesound

Meridian

Auralic

Aurender

Ixion

Kripton

Berkeley Audio Design

Imagination

 

I also remember reading this TAS article about HTC demoing an MQA-enabled phone at CES.

 

So I see a couple-few companies who'd be considered key players, but this is by no means close to an exhaustive list of the movers and shakers in mass market audio. Looking at it as nicely as I can, it appears you're just speculating about the situation "when key players have the will to make it happen."

 

I think it's always justifiable to be skeptical about new technology "breakthroughs," but perhaps — and I'm not certain I thought this before the current MQA flap — there's a fine line between skepticism and paranoia?

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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ALAC? Who uses it?

 

I do, for my portable (Sony ZX2, Android based). I transcode from AIFF to ALAC with JRMC. I keep both versions because I prefer to downsample anything higher than 96 to it's multiple down (88 or 96) to fit more music in my ZX2.

 

I use it, too. There's a historical reason why I chose it at a certain point, but it turned out to be a reasonable long-term decision, since (1) it's open source, as reiterated by Bill, and (2) my favorite playback applications (Audirvana Plus and Roon) both support ALAC. As an added benefit, if I use Roon as a front end for HQPlayer, then I can play ALAC files in HQP, which would otherwise be impossible. (HQP should really have direct support for ALAC).

 

Now, back to the paranoia-fest.

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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So you need clean low blur response to 45 khz to hear the full benefits. For the sake of discussion I will grant this as true. That means few systems will show the full benefit. Probably few will show much of any benefit. Makes me think the benefit would be quite small too. Would also seem the entire chain back to the microphones would have to meet this spec for full benefit. Which means you won't get a big benefit with 99% of existing recordings.

 

So much for my new amp, which is (was?) supposed to be one of the best measuring amps around (according to Bascom King and John Atkinson, not me).

 

Maybe it measures really well up to 45 kHz, but none of the independent testers or Benchmark thought to worry about it.

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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Benchmark Media Systems AHB2 power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

I think you are in good shape on the amp. Spec'd to -3db at 200khz. Tested to that by Stereophile.

 

The speakers on the other hand don't make it to 45 khz. So you simply need to upgrade your speakers or switch to headphones. You could probably trade those Sophia speakers for some really nice headphones. ;)

 

There's a thought. I'll probably just wait to trade in the Sophias until some MQA-approved headphones are available. (By that time I'll probably have figured out why all my gear needs to be good up to 45kHz when I can't hear anything over 16kHz on a good day.)

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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Being a professional, he may be thinking in terms of the standard definition of frequency response, where the limit is taken to be the point where the response has dropped by 3 dB. 45 KHz is not unreasonable, it makes it likely that the response up to 20 KHz is reasonably flat.

 

Another point is that there are many stages between the sound source and you. Even if each stage has apparently adequate performance, the errors add up. For example, Benchmark are best known here for their DACs. But for many years, their bread and butter was professional audio equipment. Their DA-101 audio distribution amplifier has a bandwidth of 160 KHz. It is intended for use in a distribution chain where there can be many chained stages. Because each stage's frequency response actually starts rolling off before 160 KHz (where its response is down by -3dB), the effects add up.

 

In the attached graph, the effect of cascading identical stages is shown. The nominal bandwidth of each stage is "1", the point at which the frequency resoponse drops by -3dB. You can see that as the number of stages increases, significant rolloff occurs at lower and lower frequencies.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24013[/ATTACH]

 

By the time you've daisy chained a dozen or so stages, your "adequate" bandwidth may start to encroach on the audible range.

 

Thanks for this. It gives me something to mull over, and I get the basics behind what you've outlined. But Stuart specifically mentions speakers and headphones, and I really have trouble grasping that particular aspect of all this. My speakers sound pretty good now, but they'd somehow sound better if they could reproduce frequencies of up to 45kHz, well beyond what I can hear?

 

—David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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