2016 Dead pool

[Audio_ELF]

Completely agree Eloise. Streaming is video (and especially sonic) garbage in comparison to the blu rays I own, and the ones I rent weekly from Netflix. If everything goes to streaming thanks to the general laziness/lack of attention span, and totally non-discriminating attitude of the younger masses, I'm not sure what I would do. I absolutely love films, but I couldn't accept streaming as the only alternative and I certainly could not buy every film I wanted to see.

Reading this reminded me of a slightly related thought...

 

I agree completely over the quality of Netflix vs discs (to be honest I actually don't care if Netflix stop their "rental" service as movies I really want I buy) - the lack of any HD audio formats especially. It frustrates me a bit when web sites on one hand promote expensive HT audio equipment, then unquestioningly promote Netflix, etc. based on their video quality. I'm still not convinced that 4k is even offering an improvement in quality that 1080 at a similar bitrate doesn't offer (HDR might be an exception).

 

Anyway my thought... "thanks to the general laziness/lack of attention span" ... I was reading the other day that someone purchased the rights to remake movies like Momentum. Some people just won't watch a movie older than 5 minutes. Its the same as with music - for some people, with a few exceptions, if the music is older than a year or two people aren't interested.

[realhifi]

David, I have no experience with either of the other alternatives that you mention, but consider Tidal indispensable, especially because of the depth and quality of their catalog of music. They even offer remastered discs when they are available. Do Deezer and Qubuz offer the same thing? And can they be accessed from a network player like my Aurender or the equivalent without the need for a pc? That's the deal breaker for me.

 

JC

 

I don't believe Deezer or Qobuz can be accessed on any "high end" network players as of today. They are available on both PCs and Macs in addition to iOS and Android devices and of course the Sonos platform. It will be interesting to see whether they try to make inroads into the "high end" or if they remain content to expand into the market using the access points they have already chosen.

[Musicophile]

I don't believe Deezer or Qobuz can be accessed on any "high end" network players as of today. They are available on both PCs and Macs in addition to iOS and Android devices and of course the Sonos platform. It will be interesting to see whether they try to make inroads into the "high end" or if they remain content to expand into the market using the access points they have already chosen.

 

Not sure what you qualify as "high end" but Qobuz can be accessed on Auralic and Linn streamers.

[Cebolla]

Qobuz should be able to be handled by any standard UPnP/DLNA or OpenHome supporting streamer using the BubbleUPnP Android app:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/play-qobuz-any-streamer-bubbleupnp-android-25075/

[skolis]

Boooooo... Discs are much better than streaming!

 

 

+1

 

And another +1

 

and, imho, there's another fundamental issue - the CD titles library is populated with far more titles for movies - particularly recent movies - than what Netflix streams. The streaming service is primarily TV shows and very old movies. This appears to be a function of the fact that studios have caught on to netflix and will not license their more recent fare for streaming.

[4est]

With that said, there are a few Netflix produced shows that are pretty good. Are there discs for them?

And another +1

 

and, imho, there's another fundamental issue - the CD titles library is populated with far more titles for movies - particularly recent movies - than what Netflix streams. The streaming service is primarily TV shows and very old movies. This appears to be a function of the fact that studios have caught on to netflix and will not license their more recent fare for streaming.

[Paul R]

Are you sure about that "at full quality" statement Paul? Granted, my experience is somewhat limited, but I've never seen Sonos perform at that level.

 

JC

 

Well, subjective sound is of course, subjective. Objectively, yes, Sono's streams (or can stream) bit perfect data streams. I checked and proved that (with some measure of difficulty!) when I am playing back CD RIPs over Sonos.

 

Not having the source from Tidal, I can't say what they are streaming with any confidence, but it appears to be a compressed stream that expands into full 16/44.1 quality. (FLAC I think.)

 

So absolutely, it could be considered high end - though I admit, I am thinking of it using the Optical or Coax connection into a little higher quality DAC. The Analog output from the Connect is very good, but not as good as from any of a number of DACs.

 

-Paul

[Paul R]

I certainly did not say that Tidal was " the neatest thing since sliced bread".... Clearly there are some fans here though

as for my comment on Deezer.... To be clear I do not subscribe ... But.... On their website it clearly states that the "lossless" is available for Sonos users only....

 

I clearly don't subscribe to Tidal*, but not because I have technical objections, I just really don't like Jay Z and I am not a fan of a great deal of the music they promote.

 

(*I did subscribe for a month.)

 

On the other paw, while not lossless, I cannot hear a difference between streamed FLAC files from Tidal, and streamed AAC files from Apple. And Apple Music has a much larger catalog to choose from. For me at least, Apple Music works better than Tidal. YMMV!

 

Now , I'm no intellectual Titan to be sure but I have owned a Sonos and it was sonically inferior to my PC JRiver setup in every subjective sonic description I can offer . And clearly I don't have to tout the virtues of multi point usage of JRiver to effectively do whatever Sonos does.... Only better... Again IMO, safe to say I'm just not a fan of the Sonos platform .[/Quote]

 

Did you ever hook up a Sonos Connect to a decent DAC and listen to Redbook material? It makes at least as good a source for that as JRMC or iTunes. In my book, as good as any of the more expensive streamers on the market, but again, YMMV! Admittedly, the Sonos speakers are not what I would call "high end" - but their streaming is, as long as you restrict the source material to CD quality.

 

I really love JRMC myself, especially since it is trivial to transcode even CD quality files to DSD128. Which is my favorite thing to do depending upon the DAC I am using. (grin) Also, JRMC certainly does sound better when playing hi-res or DSD files than a Sono's, but that is at least partly because Sonos won't stream hi-res at this time. Perhaps they never will.

 

-Paul

[crenca]

I clearly don't subscribe to Tidal*, but not because I have technical objections, I just really don't like Jay Z and I am not a fan of a great deal of the music they promote.

 

 

I don't have anything personal against Jay Z as I really know next to nothing about him, although I don't personally enjoy his music or the vast majority of that which is "promoted" on the Tidal home page. However, I don't let that effect me. I am only on the "home page" for 1.2 seconds before I click on my own music. This would be normal behavior for just about anyone, so I admit I don't get those who complain about the home page and the music it promotes. I notice all the streaming services (perhaps Apple does not - it is the one I don't have experience with) do this to varying degrees (use a front end "home page" to highlight whatever it is they are promoting that day).

 

As far as catalog size, it is Tidal @ 25 million vs. Apple @ 30 million. With Tidal, I am continually amazed at the depths of their catalog, such as the multiple polish gypsy accordion and piano duo's I can find... If you are into Jazz, I can't recommend its 16/44 catalog enough...

[skolis]

With that said, there are a few Netflix produced shows that are pretty good. Are there discs for them?

 

Yes but they become available at a much later date

enough on netflix though so we don't hijack a music thread....

[Matias]

Pono?

[Audio_ELF]

enough on netflix though so we don't hijack a music thread....

Its not a music thread... its a "what (companies / products) do you think is going to be dead by the end of 2016" thread...

[Paul R]

I don't have anything personal against Jay Z as I really know next to nothing about him, although I don't personally enjoy his music or the vast majority of that which is "promoted" on the Tidal home page. However, I don't let that effect me. I am only on the "home page" for 1.2 seconds before I click on my own music. This would be normal behavior for just about anyone, so I admit I don't get those who complain about the home page and the music it promotes. I notice all the streaming services (perhaps Apple does not - it is the one I don't have experience with) do this to varying degrees (use a front end "home page" to highlight whatever it is they are promoting that day).

 

As far as catalog size, it is Tidal @ 25 million vs. Apple @ 30 million. With Tidal, I am continually amazed at the depths of their catalog, such as the multiple polish gypsy accordion and piano duo's I can find... If you are into Jazz, I can't recommend its 16/44 catalog enough...

 

Well, what's 5 million tracks between services?

 

Seriously though, I don't support "art" (trash!) like the crap below, not with my dollars at least. If other people want to spend *their* money on it, I have and want no say about it. I suspect there are enough people like me that Tidal will either fail, or will be a niche product. If the later, the catalog will greatly decrease in size and variety.

 

Just for the record, I did not support Mappelthorpe either.

 

-Paul

 

 

"[Jay-Z]

So I ball so hard mu****kas wanna fine me

But first niggas gotta find me

What's 50 grand to a mu***ka like me

Can you please remind me?

Ball so hard, this shit crazy

Y'all don't know that don't shit phase me

The Nets could go 0-82 and I look at you like this shit gravy

Ball so hard, this shit weird

 

Read more: Jay-Z - Niggas In Paris Lyrics | MetroLyrics "

 

[crenca]

Well, what's 5 million tracks between services?

 

Seriously though, I don't support "art" (trash!) like the crap below, not with my dollars at least. If other people want to spend *their* money on it, I have and want no say about it. I suspect there are enough people like me that Tidal will either fail, or will be a niche product. If the later, the catalog will greatly decrease in size and variety.

 

Just for the record, I did not support Mappelthorpe either.

 

-Paul

 

Ouch, those "lyrics" really are offensive. I suppose I have to assuage myself with the understanding that Jay-Z is just one of many "artists" who control/own Tidal. I think you are probably right, in that 16/44 streaming of any kind will be something of a niche product for the foreseeable future. I suspect that even most of Tidals customers are streaming 320 or lower. I hope you are wrong about the decreasing catalog! So far it has done nothing but expand...

[orgel]

Seriously though, I don't support "art" (trash!) like the crap below…

 

I'm not a big fan of Jay-Z or rap/hip-hop generally, and I don't listen to the kind of stuff you find disturbing. But don't they have all that stuff on all the other streaming services, too? (I don't actually know, since I've become very good at ignoring it over the decades.) It's very easy to avoid on Tidal, especially if you're not using Tidal software.

 

--David (still forlornly hoping for Qobuz to make it to the US at some point.)

[orgel]

On the other paw, while not lossless, I cannot hear a difference between streamed FLAC files from Tidal, and streamed AAC files from Apple. And Apple Music has a much larger catalog to choose from. For me at least, Apple Music works better than Tidal.

 

I completely agree that catalog size represents a huge advantage for Apple Music. As far as Apple's vs. Tidal's sound quality, though, I think this has a lot to do with what software you're using for playback. When I first subscribed to Tidal, I was very disappointed in the SQ I was getting from the Tidal desktop app and from running Tidal on Chrome, and I strongly considered canceling my subscription.

 

Then along came Geoff Armstrong's clever solution that allowed folks to use Audirvana as the playback engine for Tidal by way of Kodi. While more than a little kludgy, this approach let me discover that I could get much better SQ from Tidal than Tidal's own software permitted. (Even using just "plain" Kodi for Tidal playback sounds better to me than Tidal desktop or Tidal via Chrome.)

 

Now I have the option of running Tidal streams through HQPlayer via Roon, and I have to say that being able to use @Miska's filters and upsampling to DSD/SDM makes a Tidal 44.1/16 FLAC stream sound unbelievably (and I'm not using that adverb hyperbolically) good on well-recorded Red Book material.

 

So bottom line is that IMO, Tidal's own software is crap if you're looking for good sound quality, but there's a way to bring out all the goodness that's in their streams. (And while I'm not entirely sure what to make of MQA's future prospects, I guess that Tidal's and Roon's announced support for MQA at least holds out the possibility of further improvements in this area.) Not sure that all this niche stuff is sufficient to save Tidal's bacon, but I think streaming at Red Book or better quality is inherently niche-y.

 

FWIW.

 

--David

[Blake]

--David (still forlornly hoping for Qobuz to make it to the US at some point.)

 

Unless something changed over the last year, you can get Qobuz here in the USA. I was able to get it earlier this year, although I no longer use it. Signing up for it is somewhat on the "down low".

 

Send Qobuz an email and inquire.

[Paul R]

I'm not a big fan of Jay-Z or rap/hip-hop generally, and I don't listen to the kind of stuff you find disturbing. But don't they have all that stuff on all the other streaming services, too? (I don't actually know, since I've become very good at ignoring it over the decades.) It's very easy to avoid on Tidal, especially if you're not using Tidal software.

 

--David (still forlornly hoping for Qobuz to make it to the US at some point.)

 

I guess the difference is just that the "owner" of Tidal is the person creating those lyrics, while the owner of Apple Music for example, is just selling them. I know I know, probably a difference that is no difference at all, but there you have it.

 

Had one guy tell me the other day that Apple was doomed and he would not ever spend one red cent that benefited those "*$&!@#&"s - he was really upset that Tim Cook is gay. Kinda the same thing as me holding Tidal responsible for Jay Z's offensive lyrics. I guess. Hopefully not quite so extreme on my part though.

 

-Paul

[crenca]

I completely agree that catalog size represents a huge advantage for Apple Music. As far as Apple's vs. Tidal's sound quality, though, I think this has a lot to do with what software you're using for playback. When I first subscribed to Tidal, I was very disappointed in the SQ I was getting from the Tidal desktop app and from running Tidal on Chrome, and I strongly considered canceling my subscription.

 

Then along came Geoff Armstrong's clever solution that allowed folks to use Audirvana as the playback engine for Tidal by way of Kodi. While more than a little kludgy, this approach let me discover that I could get much better SQ from Tidal than Tidal's own software permitted. (Even using just "plain" Kodi for Tidal playback sounds better to me than Tidal desktop or Tidal via Chrome.)

 

Now I have the option of running Tidal streams through HQPlayer via Roon, and I have to say that being able to use @Miska's filters and upsampling to DSD/SDM makes a Tidal 44.1/16 FLAC stream sound unbelievably (and I'm not using that adverb hyperbolically) good on well-recorded Red Book material....

 

 

 

--David

 

 

None of this is all that surprising, given that the web based and the Tidal "app" are both implementations of Java and Microsoft sound libraries which were never meant to be "audiophile" quality. I have to admit, I am somewhat suspect of any other solution given that Tidal relies on these sorts of implementations for DRM - are you sure the Kodi/Audirvana implementation bypassing these Java libraries?

[4est]

Yes, but he is the owner, and it does make a difference- to me at least. It is also a cultural thing, and those lyrics are mild compared to some rap. Sweden's rape crisis comes to mind, and I want no part in music that promotes behavior I do not agree with- period.

I'm not a big fan of Jay-Z or rap/hip-hop generally, and I don't listen to the kind of stuff you find disturbing. But don't they have all that stuff on all the other streaming services, too? (I don't actually know, since I've become very good at ignoring it over the decades.) It's very easy to avoid on Tidal, especially if you're not using Tidal software.

 

--David (still forlornly hoping for Qobuz to make it to the US at some point.)

[firedog]

I guess the difference is just that the "owner" of Tidal is the person creating those lyrics, while the owner of Apple Music for example, is just selling them. I know I know, probably a difference that is no difference at all, but there you have it.

 

Had one guy tell me the other day that Apple was doomed and he would not ever spend one red cent that benefited those "*$&!@#&"s - he was really upset that Tim Cook is gay. Kinda the same thing as me holding Tidal responsible for Jay Z's offensive lyrics. I guess. Hopefully not quite so extreme on my part though.

 

-Paul

 

It's pretty easy to use Tidal and ignore the music you don't like. I basically ignore all their recommendations, etc. that come up when you first load it. Occasionally listen to something just to see if there is any new music I might like.

 

Basically I use it to listen to albums (old or new) I hear about on this site and other places, or to complete my catalog with releases by an artist I like but who has albums I haven't bought (and may never buy, either).

 

It's great, because I can legally try music on my good system that's new to me without any monetary loss if I don't like it.

[jcbenten]

Boooooo... Discs are much better than streaming!

 

I did not realize that Netflix still used snailmail!

[orgel]

Unless something changed over the last year, you can get Qobuz here in the USA. I was able to get it earlier this year, although I no longer use it. Signing up for it is somewhat on the "down low".

 

I'm familiar with the "down low" approach to getting Qobuz in the US. I have no problem with others choosing to go that route, but for me, it's a big red flag indicating that Qobuz could be better run (and I hope will be, going forward). I don't have any inside info, but I just know that if it ever comes to negotiating rights deals with the big record companies for US distribution, it's going to be an issue.

 

--David

[orgel]

I guess the difference is just that the "owner" of Tidal is the person creating those lyrics, while the owner of Apple Music for example, is just selling them. I know I know, probably a difference that is no difference at all, but there you have it.

 

You get to choose what companies you patronize, of course, but for me, just because I don't like Jay-Z's music or lyrics (and since I rarely pay attention to contemporary pop lyrics, the music is more significant to me), that's not sufficient reason for me to boycott Tidal. For one thing, hip-hop is hugely popular worldwide, and it really doesn't matter what anyone over 45 thinks about that — it's not going to change things one iota. For another, there's a free speech issue — I may not agree with what you say, yadda, yadda. And perhaps most important, he said sheepishly, Tidal's selling a service I really, really want.

 

I'll vote with my feet if I think a corporation's behavior is especially egregious (Hobby Lobby, for example, meets my criteria), but Jay-Z's being a part owner of Tidal doesn't pass the boycott test. If it did, I'd have to change my bank, my investment strategy, the food chains I patronize, the football team I root for (though I'm almost there on that one), and on and on. Plus, I'd need to do a lot more research to find out if all the management teams' values were in accord with mine. Jay-Z doesn't need my sympathy, but in this case, he's an easy target because he's a celebrity.

 

--David

[skolis]

Its not a music thread... its a "what (companies / products) do you think is going to be dead by the end of 2016" thread...

 

ok, taking that literally, I'd add Avon to the list.

( but I'd rather keep it to music, or at least close lol)