hearing aids for audiophiles

[Deaf Cat]

Interesting thread!

My daughter was born profoundly deaf, and had her first hearing aids at 6 weeks, through intensive speech / listening therapy she learnt to speak with her digital hearing aids (optimized for speech). She was still missing the high frequencies with the most powerful hearing aids and turned up to the max, so we opted for a cochlear implant in one ear to make her listening easier, so playing with hearing friends would hopefully be easier for her. She loves music and learns all the words to the songs she loves and sings along merrily loving every minute.

 

I asked a client who I noticed wore hearing aids, who had rather large B&W speakers and Bryston Monos, what music was like through hearing aids? - 'Absolute Crap' was the summary of the conversation, this is why he had the set up he had so he could listen without hearing aids. This really upset me that my daughter would Never Ever be able to hear or enjoy the music in the way I hear the music played through my system that I love...never ever!! But thinking how much enjoyment she gets from what she can hear is really a joy to see :-)

Thinking back, we were told if she stops making any noise at around 9 or so months old she won't talk, as she is not getting enough from the hearing aids..

Now 8 years old she has asked for singing lessons... God help the teacher if we can find one is all I can say! :-D

So it is really hard thinking of what she will never ever hear (and never has), but then again, she is happy listening in the way she does! - most of the time.

The client was rather upset to say the least that his love in life, music, he was going to loose in the coming years and nothing in the world could bring that back for him as time marched on.

So it is a real difficult one, not having hearing to start with an knowing your missing something, or having the hearing and knowing it is fading....

I think we choose to deal with the hand we are dealt, in the best possible way we can...most of the time....

 

I did not even think of it, but I bought a second had XTA dp428 a while ago to play with crossovers. I can pretty much do what ever is needed with frequency responses with that, so when my daughter is older if interested we can have a play tinkering with boosting this and that... providing the implant and hearing aid don't start clipping ;-0

 

I have not been to a hard of hearing concert, but I understand the music is rather loud so the people who can' t hear anything can feel the music... Oooo

 

 

PS I seem to remember when setting up the hearing aids they had to boost to 100db left ear and 110db right ear..

[sddawson]

3) DSP - Studio Pro quality as a minimum - don't waste time with freebie software - it needs to be drop drawer, which does not mean expensive - I use a studio PEQ - when you come to set it up forget insertion gain - trust your ears - you will find you need less gain than you think. My wife of great hearing doesn't even notice when I have tweaked the sound :-) Be prepared to experiment with getting dsp right. You will find you will settle on a "good for all" setting.

 

Old thread, but hopefully you're still watching, derekc. Can you please expand on what you mean by a studio PEQ? Are you talking hardware or software? What brand etc?

[wgscott]

Whenever I see this thread title, I always wonder if "audiophile" hearing aids boost the audibility of everything between 20Hz and 1.6 MHz...

[bluesman]

See post #19 in http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/line-free-hearing-test-27910/ It's common to have serviceable hearing even with significant threshold sensitivity impairment. A routine hearing test tells you about as much about your functional hearing as an EKG does about your cardiac function, which is a lot less than most people think.

 

A good headphone system is a very practical hearing aid. Don't write off enjoyment of music because you have a hearing impairment - learn as much as you can about yours, and you may find ways to overcome some kinds of loss to the point that you're truly happy.

 

BTW, hearing loss with age is common, not normal. Some is genetic, some is traumatic, some is toxic (eg drug effect) etc. A lot of hearing loss in the elderly could have been prevented or minimized with attention, behavior change, and protection. Accepting the inevitability of hearing loss without trying to learn & do something about it is foolish. Use proper protective devices, know the side effects of your medication, control the factors that lead to vascular compromise (eg diet, weight, smoking, etc). The least we can do is try - if it didn't work, you did your best. If it did, you saved your hearing.

[derekc]

Hi - just had an alert this thread has gone active again and catching up with some of the responses.

 

Sddawson - hi - it is studio software - which I access from Jriver - I use Acon Equalize, easy to use with excellent support. It is surprising that after months of fiddling about you find a sweet spot curve and just leave it alone. Also surprising is the gain I need at various frequencies is nowhere near the insertion gain that would be required according to my audiogram results. I suspect this is why HAs sound tinny. Insertion gain in relation to an audiogram is a thread in its own right - it is a black art and you will find little on the web about this relationship. My advice is that using your ears is best. Please PM if you need more info.

[bluesman]

Also surprising is the gain I need at various frequencies is nowhere near the insertion gain that would be required according to my audiogram results.

That's almost certainly because you're recruiting (see my post below). Pure tone audiometric thresholds measure only the SPL of the quietest tone you can detect. You clearly perceive suprathreshold levels with less impairment.

[sddawson]

Hi - just had an alert this thread has gone active again and catching up with some of the responses.

 

Sddawson - hi - it is studio software - which I access from Jriver - I use Acon Equalize, easy to use with excellent support. It is surprising that after months of fiddling about you find a sweet spot curve and just leave it alone. Also surprising is the gain I need at various frequencies is nowhere near the insertion gain that would be required according to my audiogram results. I suspect this is why HAs sound tinny. Insertion gain in relation to an audiogram is a thread in its own right - it is a black art and you will find little on the web about this relationship. My advice is that using your ears is best. Please PM if you need more info.

 

Thanks for that. I have used JRiver in the past, but have now been seduced by Roon. Did you play much with JRriver's built-in DSP stuff? I did set up PEQs and got some interesting results, which I'm sure could have got me to where I need to be. Why did you feel the need to use Acon Equalize?

 

As I understand it, I can use HQ Player with Roon to stream to end-points on my network, and HQ Player is somehow able to implement EQ. But I've not got to the bottom of that yet!

 

Another thing I need to get to the bottom of is that some frequencies in my left ear (like loud female voices at the cinema, or loud whistling) sound sort of distorted, metallic or shrill. Maybe something to do with my worsening tinnitus. Oh Joy!

[derekc]

Bluesman - absolutely agree - i can do a frequency sweep and can hear fine up to ~8K - but obviously hear the higher frequencies less and therefore, my solution is to use a DSP to gradually boost those higher frequencies. IMHO a far better proposition than using HAs. Also the SPL dB range on an audiogram bears no relationship to the db scale used in audio - I wonder if this has confused/misled many a person - just a thought.

 

Sddawson - ACON is graphic based and curves can be created, displayed and manipulated and it sounds very good. I could not get on with the JRIVER PEQ. Sorry not used Roon, I have only just recently created a NAS and a pcp based playback system - trying to catch up here - honest :-)

 

Your other point - I also have spells of tinnitus and have observed my hearing is not so sharp when this occurs. But, I never had an issue with distortion - is it always the same piece of music - does anyone else hear it?? I just wondered if it is a system/room acoustic issue. P.S. I am starting to get some good results with managing tinnitus by cranial osteopathy. But do not expect immediate results.

[sddawson]

I agree that many are misled by the different scales used in audiology vs audio. Setting up a PEQ to compensate for the dB loss shown on an audiometry report yields horrible results. WAY too much treble.

 

My "distortion" happens with real-world sounds, not just recorded or amplified music. Hard to describe. Very shrill, maybe MP3-ish or ringing. Going to see my GP with the results of latest hearing test and increased tinnitus. No doubt next stop will be an ENT guy...

[bluesman]

I agree that many are misled by the different scales used in audiology vs audio.

The scales are the same - it's the metrics that differ. Audiograms measure threshold sensitivity to pure tones, i.e. the SPL of the lowest presentation level at which you can detect the test frequency. As I said below, this is not a useful measure of functional hearing for many reasons. You cannot use threshold sensitivity for anything related to your sound system.

 

The dynamic range of your usable hearing runs from threshold to uncomfortable loudness, which is what is described in another post below as annoying distortion. Both ends of your auditory range are affected by many different things, as is the middle. Without detailed knowledge of many parameters that are rarely tested, there is no better guide than your ears for setting up your system to accommodate hearing loss.

[derekc]

my research concluded (and confirmed by my audiologist) the relationship between SPL and Audio Db is not entirely linear throughout the frequency range - bearing in mind dbSPL is a straightened out dbHL - which accepts that even for good hearing some frequencies require less/more power to be heard. Then add in the Fletcher-Munson effect that as the volume increases, our hearing profile changes - then you are absolutely spot on - use your ears.

[bluesman]

my research concluded (and confirmed by my audiologist) the relationship between SPL and Audio Db is not entirely linear throughout the frequency range - bearing in mind dbSPL is a straightened out dbHL - which accepts that even for good hearing some frequencies require less/more power to be heard. Then add in the Fletcher-Munson effect that as the volume increases, our hearing profile changes - then you are absolutely spot on - use your ears.

Once a decibel, always a decibel. An EQ function is applied across the audiometric frequency spectrum to normalize the human auditory system's sensitivity for measurement. But db HL (hearing level) equals physical db SPL (absolute sound pressure level relative to total silence) minus your threshold db SPL for the frequency of interest. The units of measure are identical.

[derekc]

I believe Bluesman, you indeed have greater knowledge than I have in this area and wish I had been in contact with you over a year ago when I started to look into this.

 

Can I please clarify for anyone else following this thread, that if for example the audiogram gives you a 60db loss at 4Khz - do not despair - this does not mean you hear this frequency @ 60db in audio power terms below what a person with good hearing would hear. I.e. you would require a massive 60db insertion gain in your HA at that frequency. No PEQ DSP could match this either. The 60 db SPL requires to be converted into a audio power db - which is considerably less then 60db, and I have found even the conversion over calculates the true insertion value x >2. Well that is what my ears tell me.

[bluesman]

I believe Bluesman, you indeed have greater knowledge than I have in this area and wish I had been in contact with you over a year ago when I started to look into this.

 

Can I please clarify for anyone else following this thread, that if for example the audiogram gives you a 60db loss at 4Khz - do not despair - this does not mean you hear this frequency @ 60db in audio power terms below what a person with good hearing would hear. I.e. you would require a massive 60db insertion gain in your HA at that frequency. No PEQ DSP could match this either. The 60 db SPL requires to be converted into a audio power db - which is considerably less then 60db, and I have found even the conversion over calculates the true insertion value x >2. Well that is what my ears tell me.

I do have some knowledge & experience - I'm a board certified otolaryngologist, although my subspecialty is facial plastic & reconstructive surgery. You are correct that a 60 db pure tone threshold does not mean that you need 60 db of gain for useful perception. You may recruit sufficiently to hear an 85 or 90 db presentation of that frequency with close to normal audition. As there's no transducer with which I'm familiar that could present music to you at 140+ db, it's a moot point for those with severe to profound impairment - but such severe loss is not that common. For them, cochlear implants are so much better these days that they're reported to restore enjoyment of music to some recipients.

 

Audiometry is a medical diagnostic test, not an all encompassing evaluation of hearing. A complete standard audiometric test battery can help diagnose acoustic and other tumors along with a variety of ear, brain and balance system disorders. But most audiologists and physicians know little about hearing beyond the limits of their medical educations & experience. University audiology groups doing research into hearing and/or having a specific interest in audiophile issues are most likely to offer expanded range audiometry and other sophisticated testing, but it's expensive and not covered by insurance.

[17629]

This has been a good friend of mine's experience as well. He is a very discerning audiophile and musician, and he has been looking for decent "audiophile grade" hearing aids for several years with no luck. You'd think that by this time, with DSP and modern electronics that decent hearing aids would be available, but there aren't.

 

Your friend wouldn't be a poster over on Audiogon, would he? I ask because there's a poster over there who has hearing issues, and while not exactly the same problem the OP has, there's a lot of potentially useful info in his threads. There's been a lot of back and forth over the last couple of years full of ideas and trial & error. Even though its only a screen name, I hesitate to list it just to respect his privacy. Given the fact much of the conversation is focused on hearing aids, I thought it may be the same person. The first letter of his screen name starts with a b.

[derekc]

thanks Bluesman - I agree the word of audiophile and the world of hearing loss are miles apart.

 

On the face of it, this topic could be considered as being outside the scope of computer audio, however, I believe there could be a demand for a bespoke computer based DSP facility designed for the audiophile minded hearing impaired listener. In the meantime, I hope we have given some ideas and encouragement to those who suffer from a hearing impairment.

[sddawson]

This has been very informative for me, at the beginning of a no doubt long and arduous journey! Thank you bluesman, derekc and others....

[Steve Bruzonsky]

My quest as an audiophile re hearing aids:

 

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/3025858-we-get-older-hearing-aids-high-end-audio-concerts-home-theatre.html

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/as-we-get-older-hearing-aids-for-high-end-audio-concerts-home-theatre.26766/

 

[sddawson]

Thank you. More interesting reading ahead!