Pete Seeger's 1800 page FBI files released

[gmgraves]

FYI, the country immediately north of yours, it's called Canada, also introduced a single-payer health care system in 1966.

 

 

Yeah, I know that. I didn't mention Canada's system because I don't think it would have helped my point any.

[Jud]

a) these issues have no answers

b) UK does not have a single payer system: there is an increasingly thriving private system for people with resources.

 

The National Health is increasingly friendly to said private system, which is one reason it's thriving. The head of the NHS bounced back and forth between it and a US company now involved with said private system.

[Jud]

Thanks for the correction. Whatever GB has, it works better than ObamaCare (which, I recently read, will cost everybody MORE MONEY in 2016 - and probably more each year after that).

 

From Politifact:

 

On average, [health insurance premiums in general, including ObamaCare] have risen by about 5.8 percent a year since Obama took office, compared to 13.2 percent in the nine years before Obama.

 

For ObamaCare specifically:

 

The Kaiser Family Foundation found that the cost of a benchmark silver plan will be 4.4 percent more expensive on average across major cities in 13 states and Washington, D.C.

 

This varies considerably by city and state, but that's the average. As you'll note, this means the rate of premium increase for ObamaCare is lower than that of health insurance outside of ObamaCare.

[jabbr]

The National Health is increasingly friendly to said private system, which is one reason it's thriving. The head of the NHS bounced back and forth between it and a US company now involved with said private system.

[Jud]

Yeah, I know that. I didn't mention Canada's system because I don't think it would have helped my point any.

 

It's an excellent system in many respects. Made use of it when I severely sprained an ankle playing basketball while working in Canada. I entered the quiet and near-empty emergency room, was immediately ushered through to X-ray, was told the diagnosis and negative X-ray result, had the ankle expertly wrapped and was provided a set of crutches, was ushered into the business office where I was apologetically told since I wasn't a citizen they would have to charge me the princely sum of $60 Canadian for what they'd done, and was out the door, all in 45 minutes. (Anyone who's had the equivalent done on the U.S. side of the border is right now laughing themselves silly at the sheer impossibility of such an experience, or is simply disbelieving.)

 

They treat serious stuff like cancer cheaper and with equivalent or better outcomes on average.

 

Where they lag the US is in two particular areas: (1) There can be insanely long waits for procedures that are "only" to relieve pain where the condition won't worsen in the meanwhile, e.g., many types of joint surgery. (2) They don't do the heroic chance-in-a-million clinical trial stuff to prolong survival a few weeks or months on average that the US is very good at providing for those who want and can afford it.

[Priaptor]

It's an excellent system in many respects. Made use of it when I severely sprained an ankle playing basketball while working in Canada. I entered the quiet and near-empty emergency room, was immediately ushered through to X-ray, was told the diagnosis and negative X-ray result, had the ankle expertly wrapped and was provided a set of crutches, was ushered into the business office where I was apologetically told since I wasn't a citizen they would have to charge me the princely sum of $60 Canadian for what they'd done, and was out the door, all in 45 minutes. (Anyone who's had the equivalent done on the U.S. side of the border is right now laughing themselves silly at the sheer impossibility of such an experience, or is simply disbelieving.)

 

They treat serious stuff like cancer cheaper and with equivalent or better outcomes on average.

 

Where they lag the US is in two particular areas: (1) There can be insanely long waits for procedures that are "only" to relieve pain where the condition won't worsen in the meanwhile, e.g., many types of joint surgery. (2) They don't do the heroic chance-in-a-million clinical trial stuff to prolong survival a few weeks or months on average that the US is very good at providing for those who want and can afford it.

 

Just curious if you really believe this and what your qualifications are to come to these conclusions?

[Allan F]

Actually Canada still has Detroit for those with $$ and the rest of the USA for those with $$$.

Why would any Canadian be interested in bankrupt Detroit? And, it might surprise you to learn that the vast majority of Canadians, myself included, are quite happy with our single-payer health care system. We don't have HMO's which must approve medical treatments, where the cost to them may be in conflict with the needs of the patient. Our system isn't perfect. Wait times can be excessive, but efforts to reduce their length have made significant inroads. The word "socialism" isn't a bogeyman in Canada.

[gmgraves]

Why would any Canadian be interested in bankrupt Detroit? And, it might surprise you to learn that the vast majority of Canadians, myself included, are quite happy with our single-payer health care system. We don't have HMO's which must approve medical treatments, where the cost to them may be in conflict with the needs of the patient. Our system isn't perfect. Wait times can be excessive, but efforts to reduce their length have made significant inroads. The word "socialism" isn't a bogeyman in Canada.

 

 

Sounds like to works better than ObamaCare (but then the old pre Obama MediCal system worked better than ObamaCare.) I'm glad to hear that Canada's system is working. We on't hear much about it here in the States, but I do remember that it was considered a disaster when it was first rolled-out. I suspect that any system that completely changes the paradigm would take time to get it's sea-legs. Glad to see Canada got their act together. I wish we had a system that was as good as what Jud described.

 

On Detroit, last I heard Canadians would go to Detroit, and other US border cities to get the care they couldn't get in Canada, but I guess, from what people are saying here, today, that the Canadians have fixed those problems.

[firedog]

Just curious if you really believe this and what your qualifications are to come to these conclusions?

 

Won't speak for Jud, but I think he summed it up really well. The other criticism I'd have of the Canadian system is that my understanding is that they don't allow any private medicine at all, in order to protect the system. I understand that, but it seems sort of an extreme solution to me.

 

Qualifications? Reading about it and discussing it with friends who live in Canada, are US expats, and who all believe it is a superior system to the US one. The truth is that you don't find any kind of movement in Canada to seriously change their system, which tells you a lot.

 

The US system is great for the more well off, but is a disaster for the country as a whole. How do I know this? Compare 4 data points between the US and the rest of the world:

 

infant mortality, life expectancy, cost per person of health care (or % of GNP spent on health care), and % of uninsured: The US is behind almost all developed countries, included those socialist European countries with single payer systems. The US is also behind very rich (not) countries like Cuba, and and also a country like Israel (wars and a large immigrant population).

 

The facts show that the US system is inferior in producing results, as simple as that.

[Jud]

Just curious if you really believe this and what your qualifications are to come to these conclusions?

 

Which part(s)?

[Allan F]

We don't hear much about it here in the States, but I do remember that it was considered a disaster when it was first rolled-out. I suspect that any system that completely changes the paradigm would take time to get it's sea-legs. Glad to see Canada got their act together. I wish we had a system that was as good as what Jud described.

 

On Detroit, last I heard Canadians would go to Detroit, and other US border cities to get the care they couldn't get in Canada, but I guess, from what people are saying here, today, that the Canadians have fixed those problems.

The only people who considered it to be a disaster when it was first rolled out were the doctors. Not surprisingly, it took them time to accept and adjust to the new system.

 

In principle, doctors cannot charge for services provided by the public system. In fact, there are increasing inroads of private medicine into the public system. Primary jurisdiction over health care is a provincial rather than federal responsibility. In Quebec, the courts have ruled that private for pay clinics outside the public system are allowed. In B.C., there is ongoing litigation between the operator of a private surgical clinic and specialist referral service and the provincial government. I suspect that, ultimately, there will be limited private medicine alongside the public system for those who can afford it and are willing to pay.

 

Those going to Detroit or other American cities are primarily people with money who do not want to wait in the queue for certain services, especially elective surgery. However, on rare occasions, where essential procedures are necessary and resources are not readily available on a sufficiently timely basis, patients are sent to the U.S. for treatment by and paid for by the public system.

 

No system is perfect and, with aging populations, the demands on health care systems everywhere will face increasing challenges both in terms of funding and resources. Reports frequently cite the U.S. as having the highest cost per patient health care system in the world. I can't comment on how accurate those reports are or the criteria used to draw such conclusions.

[Priaptor]

Which part(s)?

 

Jud,

 

I have decided, the better part of valor is for me to stay out of this discussion in order for it not to degenerate. I have a totally different perspective on what is being claimed here so continue on and enjoy

[Jud]

Jud,

 

I have decided, the better part of valor is for me to stay out of this discussion in order for it not to degenerate. I have a totally different perspective on what is being claimed here so continue on and enjoy

 

Yep, I intended to get there also - thank you for doing so first. So out of respect, let me note that what I've said upthread is based in part on information I consider reliable but believe you would consider less so , and that therefore your conclusions on at least some of this will be quite different than mine. So noted, and have you heard any good music lately?

[Priaptor]

Yep, I intended to get there also - thank you for doing so first. So out of respect, let me note that what I've said upthread is based in part on information I consider reliable but believe you would consider less so , and that therefore your conclusions on at least some of this will be quite different than mine. So noted, and have you heard any good music lately?

 

Actually, I recently picked up "2015-03-15 Boulton Center for the Performing Arts, Bay Shore, NY (Live)" Jorma Kaukonen which I really like; Rattle the Lock by David Gilmore; Trail of Tears by Jacques Coursil; Live at the Village by Christian McBride Trio and Delta Time by Hans Theessink & Terry Evans (the Horch House Version, pretty amazing). I recommend all of them. I haven't really listened to Kaukonen in awhile and it was a pretty refreshing album.

 

One thing I think we can all agree about is that the best medical care is not needing any and in that respect, good music and relaxation really helps.

[wgscott]

Trail of Tears by Jacques Coursil

 

This is surprisingly good, and has the additional merit of getting us back on topic, as it was originally inspired and conceived in response to his visits to the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in the early 1970s when it was being attacked by the FBI.

[Priaptor]

This is surprisingly good, and has the additional merit of getting us back on topic, as it was originally inspired and conceived in response to his visits to the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in the early 1970s when it was being attacked by the FBI.

 

YUP, pretty amazing album. As a big Lewis and Clark fanatic I have visited many reservations, seen and learned many things from the proverbial horse's mouth and one of the most heart wrenching tales of of all was when I had a personal tour with some real historians at Canyon de Chelly. Following their trail has led me to many an eye opening experience as well as many changes in my life.

[Jud]

Jorma's a longtime favorite, as is the lesser known Terry Evans, so I'll be sure to check out both. Don't know Coursil. As to Gilmour's latest, well, we had to disagree on something.

[Priaptor]

Jorma's a longtime favorite, as is the lesser known Terry Evans, so I'll be sure to check out both. Don't know Coursil. As to Gilmour's latest, well, we had to disagree on something.

 

I agree it is the weakest of the albums of what I listed. I am just a diehard for a good guitarist.

 

If you get the Evans make sure to get the Horch House recordings. It's a pain as they will only ship a hard copy. The recording is excellent.

[wwaldmanfan]

Jorma's a longtime favorite, as is the lesser known Terry Evans, so I'll be sure to check out both. Don't know Coursil. As to Gilmour's latest, well, we had to disagree on something.

 

I've got eight albums by Terry Evans. He's a talent.

A good place to start is his two collaborations with Bobby King, "Live And Let Live", and, "Rhythym, Blues, Soul & Grooves".

They harmonize very well together, and, lest we forget, they sang backup together on some of Ry Cooder's albums. Can't get a much better endorsement than that.

[wgscott]

Don't know Coursil.

 

Jazz Articles: Jacques Coursil: The Weight of History - By Shaun Brady

 

Download of the Week: Jacques Coursil | AudioStream

 

Worth the $9+ easily: http://sunnysidezone.com/album/trails-of-tears

[gmgraves]

Won't speak for Jud, but I think he summed it up really well. The other criticism I'd have of the Canadian system is that my understanding is that they don't allow any private medicine at all, in order to protect the system. I understand that, but it seems sort of an extreme solution to me.

 

Qualifications? Reading about it and discussing it with friends who live in Canada, are US expats, and who all believe it is a superior system to the US one. The truth is that you don't find any kind of movement in Canada to seriously change their system, which tells you a lot.

 

The US system is great for the more well off, but is a disaster for the country as a whole. How do I know this? Compare 4 data points between the US and the rest of the world:

 

infant mortality, life expectancy, cost per person of health care (or % of GNP spent on health care), and % of uninsured: The US is behind almost all developed countries, included those socialist European countries with single payer systems. The US is also behind very rich (not) countries like Cuba, and and also a country like Israel (wars and a large immigrant population).

 

The facts show that the US system is inferior in producing results, as simple as that.

 

 

Very nicely outlined. +1

[Jud]

Jazz Articles: Jacques Coursil: The Weight of History - By Shaun Brady

 

Download of the Week: Jacques Coursil | AudioStream

 

Worth the $9+ easily: Trails Of Tears | Sunnyside Records

 

Nice.

[Jud]

I've got eight albums by Terry Evans. He's a talent.

A good place to start is his two collaborations with Bobby King, "Live And Let Live", and, "Rhythym, Blues, Soul & Grooves".

They harmonize very well together, and, lest we forget, they sang backup together on some of Ry Cooder's albums. Can't get a much better endorsement than that.

 

Saw Bobby and Terry eons ago at the Edmonton Folk Festival. They were performing on a small side stage and no one knew who they were, so I just walked over and stood right in front of them for an hour.

[Jud]

I am just a diehard for a good guitarist.

 

 

Here:

 

[jabbr]

Here:

 

 

wow