Pete Seeger's 1800 page FBI files released

[wgscott]

cf: Pete Seeger

 

Doubtlessly, compressed and redacted.

[4est]

Truly scary Bill...

cf: Pete Seeger

 

Doubtlessly, compressed and redacted.

[Jud]

90 pages withheld, I would suppose due to stuff that would generate negative publicity and/or concerns currently living individuals. (Dylan?)

 

The true fact I really like about the FBI and its investigation of Communism is that in the early 1950s, the FBI had so thoroughly infiltrated the American Communist Party with double agents that if they had all simply stopped paying dues the Party would have gone bankrupt.

[jabbr]

90 pages withheld, I would suppose due to stuff that would generate negative publicity and/or concerns currently living individuals. (Dylan?)

 

The true fact I really like about the FBI and its investigation of Communism is that in the early 1950s, the FBI had so thoroughly infiltrated the American Communist Party with double agents that if they had all simply stopped paying dues the Party would have gone bankrupt.

 

Well actually the Communist Party had so thoroughly infiltrated MI5/6 that it could go on indefinitely with the 15% salary tithe

[Jud]

Wonder if there were FBI agents pretending to be Communists infiltrating the British secret services?

[jabbr]

And interned in Moscow ... that's why Stalin had them all shot on arrival ...

[jabbr]

Hmm maybe J Edgar was really a Russian agent sent to destabilize democracy ...

[wgscott]

By the British, as revenge for 1812?

[jabbr]

These are really really tough issues. Pete Seeger --- outrageous, besides being a colossal waste of resources. Or the case of my young friend Aaron Schwartz. I still get a tear in the corner of my eye when I think of him.

 

Balance this against the real need to protect us from terrorism, nuclear threats etc. The problem is these people have no common sense. Not sure how to solve that. Demagoguery and "scares" and limiting the spread of free speech does nothing to help us. On the other hand, the Internet itself was derived from a DARPA project as well as Tor (NRL/DARPA), so there are good things our government folks have done as well. Interestingly it seems like the military side has been more sensible than the "civilian" ... just seems.

[Snowmonkey]

1812 - Wouldn't that be the French?

[Allan F]

1812 - Wouldn't that be the French?

No, The War of 1812 was fought between the U.S. and British Canada. You are probably thinking of the Napoleonic wars in Europe.

 

Not to in any way excuse or justify the excesses of the FBI in investigating Peter Seeger in the 1950's, one must remember the intense anti-Communist paranoia so prevalent in the U.S. at the time, personified at the extreme by Senator Joseph McCarthy. Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer, the scientist who headed the Los Alamos Laboratory that developed the atomic bomb during World War II, was stripped of his security clearance in the 1950's because of his associations.

[tne]

I'm looking forward to the day when their Flava Flav dossier is released.

 

But seriously, Seeger was one of the great men of the 20th Century. It is a shame how little men get so threatened by the ideas and actions of the outstanding ones (men and women).

[Allan F]

But seriously, Seeger was one of the great men of the 20th Century. It is a shame how little men get so threatened by the ideas and actions of the outstanding ones (men and women).

Or, even more troublesome and disturbing, by the ideas and actions of those who are merely different.

[gmgraves]

90 pages withheld, I would suppose due to stuff that would generate negative publicity and/or concerns currently living individuals. (Dylan?)

 

The true fact I really like about the FBI and its investigation of Communism is that in the early 1950s, the FBI had so thoroughly infiltrated the American Communist Party with double agents that if they had all simply stopped paying dues the Party would have gone bankrupt.

 

 

Now, that's funny! And probably true. Yes, Seeger was a Commie. But he wasn't in favor of overthrowing the government by force. He was a musician for crissake. It is a short jump from Progressive Liberalism to Communist Socialism, but unfortunately, J. Edgar Hoover was never quite sure where that demarcation line was, or indeed if it ever existed.

[Allan F]

It is a short jump from Progressive Liberalism to Communist Socialism, but unfortunately, J. Edgar Hoover was never quite sure where that demarcation line was, or indeed if it ever existed.

Perhaps that was because J. Edgar Hoover was too busy trying to decide what dress to wear.

[tne]

It is a short jump from Progressive Liberalism to Communist Socialism....

 

I do not agree with you on this comment, George, but I do think that Hooveristic mindsets combined with modern technologies poses a real threat to today's society.

[gmgraves]

I do not agree with you on this comment, George, but I do think that Hooveristic mindsets combined with modern technologies poses a real threat to today's society.

 

 

That's your right, of course. But from my side of the fence, the difference between Progressive Liberalism and Communist Socialism is mostly one of semantics. Funny thing, the US uberliberals can't even do Socialism right (Obamacare!).

 

On the other hand, you are exactly right about your second comment. It's a rough row to hoe, walking the tightrope between personal privacy and keeping us safe from terrorists who play by no rules, and belong to no specific country. I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of the FBI, the CIA or the NSA these days.

[gmgraves]

Perhaps that was because J. Edgar Hoover was too busy trying to decide what dress to wear.

 

 

That's the popular belief, anyway. Hoover made a lot of enemies in his time as FBI head. Keep in mind that his enemies waited until he was dead to start slinging the mud at him. Now maybe he was gay and maybe he wasn't, I don't know (and I don't care). You have to take mud like that with a grain of sand and look, instead, at who is slinging it. As far as I'm concerned his sexual preference is irrelevant. I judge the man by weighing the good he did against the bad, and to me he comes out a wash. He should be praised for his anti-crime work in the 1930's, his anti-Axis work in the 1940's, but his anti-Communist work in the '50's, '60's, and '70's was "overzealous" to say the least and I'm afraid that he used the Communist stamp to attack those individuals of which he did not approve for one reason or another.

[Allan F]

That's the popular belief, anyway. Hoover made a lot of enemies in his time as FBI head. Keep in mind that his enemies waited until he was dead to start slinging the mud at him. Now maybe he was gay and maybe he wasn't, I don't know (and I don't care). You have to take mud like that with a grain of sand and look, instead, at who is slinging it. As far as I'm concerned his sexual preference is irrelevant. I judge the man by weighing the good he did against the bad, and to me he comes out a wash. He should be praised for his anti-crime work in the 1930's, his anti-Axis work in the 1940's, but his anti-Communist work in the '50's, '60's, and '70's was "overzealous" to say the least and I'm afraid that he used the Communist stamp to attack those individuals of which he did not approve for one reason or another.

You forgot to mention that, for the longest time, Hoover refused to accept that the Mafia existed. The reason that many of his enemies didn't "start slinging mud at him" until he was dead was because he kept files on them that, if released, could have proved very embarrassing, if not considerably worse. The only significance of him being gay is the inherent hypocrisy, because many of those files were on homosexuals.

[firedog]

Now, that's funny! And probably true. Yes, Seeger was a Commie. But he wasn't in favor of overthrowing the government by force. He was a musician for crissake. It is a short jump from Progressive Liberalism to Communist Socialism, but unfortunately, J. Edgar Hoover was never quite sure where that demarcation line was, or indeed if it ever existed.

 

George, I hope you aren't being serious. It's a very big jump from Progressive Liberalism to Communism. Ask the hundreds of millions of democracy loving progressive liberals who live in Western Democracies and are glad they did/do, and who also were opposed to the Soviet Union and it's policies. Hoover obviously thought the opposite, and that was part of the problem.

[tne]

That's your right, of course. But from my side of the fence, the difference between Progressive Liberalism and Communist Socialism is mostly one of semantics. Funny thing, the US uberliberals can't even do Socialism right (Obamacare!).

 

On the other hand, you are exactly right about your second comment. It's a rough row to hoe, walking the tightrope between personal privacy and keeping us safe from terrorists who play by no rules, and belong to no specific country. I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of the FBI, the CIA or the NSA these days.

 

George, since you do not know where I stand on many (or, in fact, any) political issues, I believe that you have jumped to a conclusion with no evidence. Your assumptions may be correct, somewhat correct, or wildly wrong, but they are assumptions nevertheless. No worries though.

[AnotherSpin]

Intellectuals (or singers) who stand for Communism could have a lot of fun, if all this happens in a free world. After living bigger part of my life in USSR I am sympathetic to all or any actions against them, no matter how many pages it takes to cover the effort. BTW, KGB archives in Russia still sealed, if I am not mistaken. Pretty sure though, documents are very scarce, tovarisches have been preferring not to leave filed traces. And, of course, stationery and office supply was of terrible quality and in horrible deficit, as most of the goods in USSR.

 

And I do believe there is no drastic gap between liberal ideas and terrorist activity. Lenin for decades lived in Europe discussing ideas, writing articles, and translating Bishop Berkeley to Russian.

[gmgraves]

George, I hope you aren't being serious. It's a very big jump from Progressive Liberalism to Communism. Ask the hundreds of millions of democracy loving progressive liberals who live in Western Democracies and are glad they did/do, and who also were opposed to the Soviet Union and it's policies. Hoover obviously thought the opposite, and that was part of the problem.

 

I mostly meant that from the perspective of those innocent souls who joined the communist party in the 30's and 40's because the Communists Party of the USA seemingly supported the same types of Socialist causes as did the Progressive Liberals of the day. Seeger was among that group, as was Lucille Ball and many others. Hoover had files on all of them.

[tne]

 

And I do believe there is no drastic gap between liberal ideas and terrorist activity. Lenin for decades lived in Europe discussing ideas, writing articles, and translating Bishop Berkeley to Russian.

 

Your reasoning here seems a bit unsound to me, if you will forgive my forwardness. But your life experience is much different from mine, so I respect where our disagreements about this may arise. I live most of the year for the past 4+ years in a communist country, but can leave without any real repercussions at any time (US passport plus money for plane ticket). It really does give one a broader perspective on a number of issues to live within a system vastly different from the one of their origin and majority of life.

 

I do make a clear distinction between socialism/communism (which I view as more of an economic philosophy) and totalitarianism. Perhaps this is where our disagreement about this comes from.

[gmgraves]

George, since you do not know where I stand on many (or, in fact, any) political issues, I believe that you have jumped to a conclusion with no evidence. Your assumptions may be correct, somewhat correct, or wildly wrong, but they are assumptions nevertheless. No worries though.

 

Well of course, all I know about you is that you disagreed with me about Progressive Liberalism cum Communism and my only comment was that you have that right. I don't believe that I made any inference about you, and if you took my meaning to be any more than face value, I apologize. None was meant.