testing 'sound audio facts'...

[livelistenlearn]

1) cables do not make a difference.

sometimes, cables do make a difference. in a strange way.

 

earlier this year, started a thread on a ‘400-strand’ toslink cable with remarkable behavior - it could ‘deliver’ music up to a resolution of 24/176.4 (up-sampled using Audirvana). but, when playing 24/192 (native or up-sampled) audio files, music ‘stuttered’ or everything went silent.

 

after refund, company rep said returned cable was subsequently tested and found to be able to do 24/192 on another DAC, another system.

 

meanwhile, have invested in 2 other cables from 2 other companies (one was advertised as ‘1300-strand’, and the other, ‘1300-core’). both performing flawlessly. with 24/192 PCM and DSD (via DOP).

 

2) CD players and DACs are not as important as speakers… bits being bits.

after investing in different software (filters), up-sampling, digital DSP and toslink connection in 2014 and 2015, am astounded by how much more ‘accurate’ music can sound on one’s system… without no change in DAC, amplifier and speakers.

 

 

3) a good amplifier = straight wire with gain.

4c) sensitivity/efficiency should ideally be 84dB or more. one would need 100W of amp power to drive an 84dB speaker...

 

fundamentally, a SS guy. who has been impressed with a ‘38W’ Prima Luna Dialogue driving ‘85dB’ KEF LS50s and ‘86dB’ Harbeth C7ES3s.

[semente]

Hi Semente,

 

I have questions about first picture:

 

1. What is solid line and point line?

 

2. What in left and right y-axises?

 

 

For easier interpretation of results need panoramic (by frequency) SPL-measurements of amplifier+speaker in anechoic room.

 

Otherwise need math modeling amp+speakers. The math should have many input arrays of variables. That practically is difficult.

 

Hi Yuri,

 

My apologies for not adding the legend...I assumed that everyone would be familiarized with Stereophile's measurements.

 

Fig.4 Modified Kantor speaker simulator, electrical impedance (solid) and phase (dashed) (2 ohms/vertical div.).

 

solid line - impedance

dashed line - phase

vertical left - impedance Ohm

vertical right - phase angle

 

Here's the full article on the dummy speakers:

 

Real-Life Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

R

[NeroMetalliko]

The foregoing is apparently open to debate. Many cable manufacturers design their bi-wire cables with the runs to the bass drivers considerably thicker than those to the mid/treble drivers.

 

The fact that many manufacturer are selling (open to debate) products does not make them automatically a better choice for the final sound results.

I strongly encourage a listening test, on same condition, using bi-wiring (differing for the bass and mid/treble) vs a decent single wiring solution of similar overall price.

But let your ears be the final judge without prejudice...

 

Have a nice listening time,

ciao.

 

Andrea

[Sal1950]

Yep - which was actually part of my point: If Vandersteen's motivation was playing to the cable manufacturers' interests, why would they expressly recommend against this in their owner's manual?

 

I don't know Jud, you could read these things many ways. Wouldn't the sale of 2 sets of manufacturer X's mid-priced cables make him just as pleased a 1 set of the high priced spread?

 

"The effects of bi-wiring are not subtle. The improvements are large enough that a bi-wire set of moderately priced cable will usually sound better than a single run of far more expensive cable."

 

If I were to read between the lines of this paragraph I would deduce him to be also saying,

"just imagine how good they would then sound with two runs of the expensive cable?

 

I get the feeling that your affection for RV might be coloring your evaluation of the reasoning behind the wording of manuals.

[sandyk]

Bi-wiring speakers. Pros and Cons.

 

Bi-wire, not only an advantage

[Jud]

I don't know Jud, you could read these things many ways. Wouldn't the sale of 2 sets of manufacturer X's mid-priced cables make him just as pleased a 1 set of the high priced spread?

 

"The effects of bi-wiring are not subtle. The improvements are large enough that a bi-wire set of moderately priced cable will usually sound better than a single run of far more expensive cable."

 

If I were to read between the lines of this paragraph I would deduce him to be also saying,

"just imagine how good they would then sound with two runs of the expensive cable?

 

I get the feeling that your affection for RV might be coloring your evaluation of the reasoning behind the wording of manuals.

 

That's certainly possible. In fact, I think I can picture Richard and his head marketing person hatching their fiendishly clever scheme -

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Hi Johnny, what's up?

 

JOHNNY (head marketing person): Boss, I've got this terrific new marketing idea!

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Let's hear it, Johnny.

 

JOHNNY: Well first of all, it's going to be an indirect thing. We're going to make cable manufacturers happy, and probably our dealers, and then we'll rely on them to do the same for us!

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Oh - well, that's certainly indirect. Tell me how this will work.

 

JOHNNY: We're going to bury this in our owner's manuals, so it will only be our customers that see it, and only after they've already made their purchase.

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Wow, more indirect all the time. So it will be after they've bought the speakers, and presumably they've bought the wiring for the speakers, too.

 

JOHNNY: Right, no one will ever be able to trace this back to us. And we'll tell them in the manual not to buy expensive wire, which of course is a cleverly disguised message that they should buy expensive wire!

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Not only indirect, but pretty much indecipherable.

 

JOHNNY: And here's the beauty part - it will make our products more expensive, so we'll sell less of them. Just try to accuse us of doing that as a clever marketing campaign!

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: I'm pretty sure, Johnny, that no one will accuse us of using that as a clever marketing campaign. OK, I think we've had enough fun here for one afternoon. Back to the trucks, Johnny, we've got speakers to deliver.

 

JOHNNY (puzzled): But boss, I'm not a delivery truck driver.

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: You are now.

[audiventory]

Hi Yuri,

 

solid line - impedance

dashed line - phase

vertical left - impedance Ohm

vertical right - phase angle

 

Here's the full article on the dummy speakers:

 

Real-Life Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

R

 

Hi Semente,

 

Thank you for explanation. Now all clear.

[CR250]

I don't know Jud, you could read these things many ways. Wouldn't the sale of 2 sets of manufacturer X's mid-priced cables make him just as pleased a 1 set of the high priced spread?

 

"The effects of bi-wiring are not subtle. The improvements are large enough that a bi-wire set of moderately priced cable will usually sound better than a single run of far more expensive cable."

 

If I were to read between the lines of this paragraph I would deduce him to be also saying,

"just imagine how good they would then sound with two runs of the expensive cable?

 

I get the feeling that your affection for RV might be coloring your evaluation of the reasoning behind the wording of manuals.

 

I've only been on this website for a few days now, but its clear to me that most of the posters here go over every comment with a fine tooth comb in hopes of finding something to argue about. It doesn't matter what it is, so long as they can think up an argument to make. Right, wrong, true, false... it doesn't matter. Just read between the lines and come up with something.

[Paul R]

I've only been on this website for a few days now, but its clear to me that most of the posters here go over every comment with a fine tooth comb in hopes of finding something to argue about. It doesn't matter what it is, so long as they can think up an argument to make. Right, wrong, true, false... it doesn't matter. Just read between the lines and come up with something.

 

You think this is picky? Oi! You should join a reef keeper's site sometime for picky. We can argue all day over exactly how much vodka to feed the coral...

 

-Paul

[Sal1950]

I've only been on this website for a few days now, but its clear to me that most of the posters here go over every comment with a fine tooth comb in hopes of finding something to argue about. It doesn't matter what it is, so long as they can think up an argument to make. Right, wrong, true, false... it doesn't matter. Just read between the lines and come up with something.

 

Your catching on fast! LOL

[davidbeinct]

You think this is picky? Oi! You should join a reef keeper's site sometime for picky. We can argue all day over exactly how much vodka to feed the coral...

 

-Paul

 

Do you argue over whether Grey Goose is better than Seagrams?

[Paul R]

Do you argue over whether Grey Goose is better than Seagrams?

 

Sill Chap - all corals prefer SEAGrams.

[Ajax]

That's certainly possible. In fact, I think I can picture Richard and his head marketing person hatching their fiendishly clever scheme -

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Hi Johnny, what's up?

 

JOHNNY (head marketing person): Boss, I've got this terrific new marketing idea!

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Let's hear it, Johnny.

 

JOHNNY: Well first of all, it's going to be an indirect thing. We're going to make cable manufacturers happy, and probably our dealers, and then we'll rely on them to do the same for us!

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Oh - well, that's certainly indirect. Tell me how this will work.

 

JOHNNY: We're going to bury this in our owner's manuals, so it will only be our customers that see it, and only after they've already made their purchase.

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Wow, more indirect all the time. So it will be after they've bought the speakers, and presumably they've bought the wiring for the speakers, too.

 

JOHNNY: Right, no one will ever be able to trace this back to us. And we'll tell them in the manual not to buy expensive wire, which of course is a cleverly disguised message that they should buy expensive wire!

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: Not only indirect, but pretty much indecipherable.

 

JOHNNY: And here's the beauty part - it will make our products more expensive, so we'll sell less of them. Just try to accuse us of doing that as a clever marketing campaign!

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: I'm pretty sure, Johnny, that no one will accuse us of using that as a clever marketing campaign. OK, I think we've had enough fun here for one afternoon. Back to the trucks, Johnny, we've got speakers to deliver.

 

JOHNNY (puzzled): But boss, I'm not a delivery truck driver.

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: You are now.

 

Loved it.

 

Ajax

[Ajax]

I've only been on this website for a few days now, but its clear to me that most of the posters here go over every comment with a fine tooth comb in hopes of finding something to argue about. It doesn't matter what it is, so long as they can think up an argument to make. Right, wrong, true, false... it doesn't matter. Just read between the lines and come up with something.

 

Yeah - but not everyone, we do have some laid back characters who don't have to have the final say but they just don't post as often.

 

We also have a bunch of well educated retires who were at one stage leading professionals in their fields and are now just plain bored. They are looking for an opportunity to engage their intellect and do so by being antagonistic in preference to just existing. That could be BS and they may just enjoy the banter. Anyway I woke early this morning and was looking for something to do while waiting for the rest of the family to rise before we all go to the beach for a swim.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Yeah - but not everyone, we do have some laid back characters who don't have to have the final say but they just don't post as often.

 

We also have a bunch of well educated retires who were at one stage leading professionals in their fields and are now just plain bored. They are looking for an opportunity to engage their intellect and do so by being antagonistic in preference to just existing. That could be BS and they may just enjoy the banter. Anyway I woke early this morning and was looking for something to do while waiting for the rest of the family to rise before we all go to the beach for a swim.

 

+1. Very insightful. Now that you have found me out, to a tee I might add, I need to find another forum or thread where I can stir up some trouble, and continue to dazzle the world with my brilliance. Any suggestions?

 

Merry Christmas to all.

[esldude]

JOHNNY (puzzled): But boss, I'm not a delivery truck driver.

 

RICHARD VANDERSTEEN: You are now.

 

Am I remembering rightly that Richard Vandersteen drove a truck between leaving the Air Force and building speakers? Maybe Johnny has a bright future in speaker design.

 

 

Okay, found some info on it.

http://www.vandersteen.com/media/files/Reprints/5aboslutesoundreview.pdf in the sidebar.

 

RV: That’s exactly right. Every retailer has had the nightmare of a guy coming into their store saying that he has a better speaker than anything in the place. [Well, I was] one of those guys. I was driving for a company called Beacon Oil, delivering jet fuel and gasoline to stations and military installations. I parked the truck in front of a store in Visalia [California] and brought in these speakers that looked like R2D2 in Star Wars. They humored me, but after hearing the speakers, they thought there was something to them.

[Jud]

Am I remembering rightly that Richard Vandersteen drove a truck between leaving the Air Force and building speakers? Maybe Johnny has a bright future in speaker design.

 

You absolutely are. He's a big guy, and when I saw him at RMAF he looked like he'd have no trouble doing that today.

[esldude]

Vandersteen Audio High End Speakers | Vandersteen Audio

 

About two thirds of the way down this page RV answers rather completely why he thinks bi-wiring is a plus.

[CR250]

Yeah - but not everyone, we do have some laid back characters who don't have to have the final say but they just don't post as often.

 

We also have a bunch of well educated retires who were at one stage leading professionals in their fields and are now just plain bored. They are looking for an opportunity to engage their intellect and do so by being antagonistic in preference to just existing. That could be BS and they may just enjoy the banter. Anyway I woke early this morning and was looking for something to do while waiting for the rest of the family to rise before we all go to the beach for a swim.

 

You're probably right. I expected some harsh comments in response to my last post but they never came. I guess I'm just not used how things work here.

[esldude]

You're probably right. I expected some harsh comments in response to my last post but they never came. I guess I'm just not used how things work here.

 

Maybe the group is more tolerant than you implied in your previous post.

 

We do argue, we do go over things perhaps with a fine tooth comb. The main goal of few if any is to argue in my opinion. Nor will there be argument wrong, right or otherwise. I do believe everyone is genuine in their views expressed. Being new here it might seem otherwise, we'll cut you some slack and you'll become more accustomed to things.

[semente]

Vandersteen Audio High End Speakers | Vandersteen Audio

 

About two thirds of the way down this page RV answers rather completely why he thinks bi-wiring is a plus.

 

I've read the whole interview which is interesting.

I'd enjoy being tested for things such as the audibility of phase and time alignment.

Regarding bi-wiring, can't the benefits he mentions be measured?

 

R

[esldude]

I've read the whole interview which is interesting.

I'd enjoy being tested for things such as the audibility of phase and time alignment.

Regarding bi-wiring, can't the benefits he mentions be measured?

 

R

 

Yes, they can. The results wouldn't indicate an advantage in audibility.

[Jud]

I've read the whole interview which is interesting.

I'd enjoy being tested for things such as the audibility of phase and time alignment.

 

R

 

I can tell you these are audible to me in blind tests I've run for myself at home. Using Audiophile Inventory I upsample a track to DSD128 so my DAC does no further internal upsampling or filtering other than the final filter to analog. I create one upsampled version of the track using Audiophile Inventory's linear phase filter, thus preserving the phase of the recording and its time alignment. I create a second upsampled version using Audiophile Inventory's minimum phase filter. This alters the phase of the recording and also changes time alignment, since minimum phase filters have "group delay" (that is, the speed with which the signal passes through the filter changes depending on frequency). I then set my player software to shuffle so I don't know which of the tracks plays first. So far, with the tracks I've tested, I can reliably hear slightly less realistic imaging and soundstage with the minimum phase filter.

 

I think a DAC's internal filtering or just a recording that did not have a very good quality portrayal of a sonic space might easily destroy these differences.

[davide256]

#4 is just plain silly. Speakers can't reproduce signal detail that never makes it to them. And the greatest signal detail loss occurs leaving source transport (TT/cartridge/phono pre, digital disc player, media server renderer)

[esldude]

Yes, they can. The results wouldn't indicate an advantage in audibility.

 

To be clear I was referring to measurable effects of bi wiring. Not whether phase and time alignment are audible.