Supreme Sound Audio Opamp upgrade for Soundcard, Motherboard, DAC, Head amps

[gmgraves]

I guess they think it is difficult to swap op amps (it's not), or it will invalidate a warranty, etc.

 

Well, not always. Soldered through-hole op-amps are difficult to swap-out, and surface mount op-amps are impossible for all but the most skilled of electronic technicians. Only socketed op-amps are not difficult. So, don't attemp this until you are sure it's possible with your component!

[mac_and_dac]

Well, not always. Soldered through-hole op-amps are difficult to swap-out, and surface mount op-amps are impossible for all but the most skilled of electronic technicians. Only socketed op-amps are not difficult. So, don't attemp this until you are sure it's possible with your component!

 

Yes, agree - I'm fairly handy with a soldering iron, but wouldn't dare attempt to swap out anything that is hard-wired!

 

But I think many (most?) DACs sold these days use pluggable NE5532 and NE5534 IC's?

 

The other important thing for people to remember is to ensure that the op amps are plugged in correctly. I've cooked at least one op amp by getting the pins the wrong way round!

[4est]

In the interest of fairness, surface mount is tedious and tenuous but doable with magnifiers. Through hole parts are easy if you are willing to trash what is existing and put a socket into it. Simply clip the leads and remove them one by one. Most op amps one would replace are cheap enough to buy a new set of originals along with the intended replacements.

Well, not always. Soldered through-hole op-amps are difficult to swap-out, and surface mount op-amps are impossible for all but the most skilled of electronic technicians. Only socketed op-amps are not difficult. So, don't attemp this until you are sure it's possible with your component!

[sandyk]

Through hole parts are easy if you are willing to trash what is existing and put a socket into it. Simply clip the leads and remove them one by one. Most op amps one would replace are cheap enough to buy a new set of originals along with the intended replacements.

 

Hi Forrest

I do that too.

 

Regards

Alex

[4est]

You know me Alex, I believe in DIY audio. If one looks back, DIY is the core of audio enthusiasm historically and quite empowering. People are likely to get more bang for buck doing things such as this vs swapping some cables. Not to disparage cables or start an off topic cable debate. I have some pretty pricey cabling that many, including you Alex IIRC, would think silly. I believe they make a difference at times, but no where near as much as circuit and part changes.

Hi Forrest

I do that too.

 

Regards

Alex

[mac_and_dac]

+1

 

Rightly or wrongly, I see cheap IC op amps as the weakest link these days in most digital music reproduction.

 

People can drop thousands of $K's on a pre-amp, unaware perhaps that there are a pair of pre-pre-amps in the chain that cost probably no more than a couple of dollars each!

[gmgraves]

In the interest of fairness, surface mount is tedious and tenuous but doable with magnifiers. Through hole parts are easy if you are willing to trash what is existing and put a socket into it. Simply clip the leads and remove them one by one. Most op amps one would replace are cheap enough to buy a new set of originals along with the intended replacements.

 

 

They're do-able if you have the right temperature controlled soldering iron, and the correct surface-mount soldering tip, and if you are a good solder-er. I have a Mil-Spec soldering certification (Lockheed sent me to soldering school, but it was many years ago) and I wouldn't want to tackle a surface-mount IC swap on a piece of expensive equipment. What you have to look-out for are two things: Solder bridges between those .050 mm leads (easy to do, easier to not see). At least that's correctable. Not as correctable are lifted traces and lifted pads from the circuit board. if I had a dollar for every time I've done that...

[gmgraves]

+1

 

Rightly or wrongly, I see cheap IC op amps as the weakest link these days in most digital music reproduction.

 

People can drop thousands of $K's on a pre-amp, unaware perhaps that there are a pair of pre-pre-amps in the chain that cost probably no more than a couple of dollars each!

 

 

The cost is not the issue. Sure IC op-amps are cheap, but the only important thing is whether or not they do the job. This Audiophile notion that IC analog parts aren't very good is just that, a notion. You take DAC chips for instance most of the better ones these days outperform the most expensive epoxy-potted discrete component DACs. When everything in the DAC chip is part of the same piece of silicon, it's not only cheaper to manufacture, but the individual devices on that piece of silicon are matched far better than any hand matching of individual transistors and resistors could ever be. The IC is also going to be more thermally stable because all the parts on the chip are going to respond to temperature changes in exactly the same way, again, because since they are on the same piece of silicon and were processed all at the same time under the same conditions, they will all react as a single entity. This cannot be said of circuits made up of many disparate parts.

 

I believe that this piece of audiophile prejudice is a carryover from the early days of linear IC design, the days of the µA709, LM101, µA741, etc. These op-amps simply weren't good enough for anything other than the most rudimentary of audio applications (telecommunications, cheap transistor radios, etc.). In those days, discrete component op-amps were orders of magnitude better than anything an IC op-amp designer could even aspire to! Until the late 90's IC op-amps had slow slew rates, poor common mode rejection, quirky input impedances, low gain bandwidth, high noise, asymmetrical slew rate, etc. Back in the late 60's, the British recording console company, Rupert Neve, had a discrete op-amp module for it's microphone preamp channels that sported a signal-to-noise ratio of -127dB(!) while providing more than 60dB of voltage gain over 20-20 KHz. The best IC op-amps of the time didn't have the gain bandwidth to do 60dB of gain (that's 1000-to-1) over the entire audio spectrum. A member of the TI LME497X family can easily match those figures today, and do so for a few pennies. Also the modern TI IC op-amps have much faster slew rate than the Neve discrete amp, and the TI chips' slew is symmetrical which the Neve amps was not! On the other hand, only few of the Burson specs better that Neve module (but the Burson is much less expensive in relative currencies).

[sandyk]

George

I completely agree with what you are saying here about replacing a recent model opamp such as the LME49710 etc. with a hand made version. However, my own Class A Preamp which is fully discrete , outperforms all I.C. preamps that I have heard so far.

It does however use 2 pairs of dual transistors in the front end of each channel, which are very closely matched, and are enclosed in a metal can for exemplary thermal coupling between devices, as well as a far better PSU . It also has VERY close to 4 Zeroes in it's distortion figures.

Perhaps even better due to measurement techniques used ?

 

I am unable to check the Burson page for these new devices, as Internet Explorer ceases to work on this page of their site ONLY.

 

Do they even bother giving specifications for these devices such as Bandwidth, Slew Rate, THD and S/N ?

 

Regards

Alex

[Deaf Cat]

Good to see some interest being generated in Op Amps. It's an easy, good value and meaningful upgrade.

 

I have Burson op amps in my EE MiniMax Dac+ and Dexa's in my EE Supreme. I'm amazed more people don't consider this as an upgrade path. I guess they think it is difficult to swap op amps (it's not), or it will invalidate a warranty, etc.

 

Hello mac & dac, did you try various op amps before you settled on the burson's in the minimax and dexta's in the supreme? just wondering why you have one type of op amp in one box, and another type of op amp in your other box?

Cheers

[gmgraves]

George

I completely agree with what you are saying here about replacing a recent model opamp such as the LME49710 etc. with a hand made version. However, my own Class A Preamp which is fully discrete , outperforms all I.C. preamps that I have heard so far.

It does however use 2 pairs of dual transistors in the front end of each channel, which are very closely matched, and are enclosed in a metal can for exemplary thermal coupling between devices, as well as a far better PSU . It also has VERY close to 4 Zeroes in it's distortion figures.

Perhaps even better due to measurement techniques used ?

 

I am unable to check the Burson page for these new devices, as Internet Explorer ceases to work on this page of their site ONLY.

 

Do they even bother giving specifications for these devices such as Bandwidth, Slew Rate, THD and S/N ?

 

Regards

Alex

 

They do give slew-rate which they list as better than 36 V/µS (min) which is twice the 49710 (which is spec'd at 20 V/µS typically), but the Burson has a lower GBP (50 MHz as opposed to 55 MHz for the TI, so somebody is either exaggerating or the other is being very conservative.). OTOH, Burson does not spec noise.

 

But then the Burson V5s are $130 (Oz Bucks?) for a pair and the LME 49710s are pennies each in quantity and generally have less distortion, and have vanishingly low noise (2nV/root-Hertz).

[mac_and_dac]

Hello mac & dac, did you try various op amps before you settled on the burson's in the minimax and dexta's in the supreme? just wondering why you have one type of op amp in one box, and another type of op amp in your other box?

Cheers

 

Hi there,

 

A couple of years ago I ordered single- and double-sided Dexa op amps as an upgrade for the MiniMax DAC+. I can't remember why I chose the Dexa's over the Bursons - it may have been down to size.

 

Earlier this year I purchased the EE Supreme, and had a Singapore company modify it for me. Part of their mod programme was to add Burson op amps. So that is why I have them.

 

Whilst I can notice a subtle improvement between the discrete op amps and the IC's, I can't actually tell too much of the difference between the Dexas and the Bursons. There is a review somewhere which compares the two; I can find that for you if it is helpful.

 

I struggle to tell the difference between DACs these days - they all sound pretty good to me. But a DAC with upgraded op amps always sounds a little sweeter and smoother to me than one with standard IC op amps. I have a few DACs at home, and I personally notice less of a difference between an entry level DAC ($300) and a mid-range DAC ($1500) than I do between a mid-range DAC with rolled op amps and the same DAC without.

 

YMMV, of course, this is just my experience and subjective opinion.

 

Cheers

[4est]

What on earth does Mill-Spec training have to do with this beyond your desire to put airs on? There is video after video on youtube of people instructing how to do this sort of stuff with simple tools and techniques using more difficult parts than you would ever find needing in op-amp replacements.

Somehow at age 51 I am capable of doing a lot with a $50 soldering iron with a regular pointed tip, good light and an $30 optivisor using simple no clean flux and some solder wick. I am not suggesting a newbie mod a 5K DAC, but this is no where near as difficult as you make it seem. The parts in this thread aren't even surface mount, but the same holds true for replacing them as it does for the 8 pin DIPs such as theses. If you need to replace a surface mount op amp (SOIC), cutting the legs off and removing the pins one by one is still viable and pretty easy.

They're do-able if you have the right temperature controlled soldering iron, and the correct surface-mount soldering tip, and if you are a good solder-er. I have a Mil-Spec soldering certification (Lockheed sent me to soldering school, but it was many years ago) and I wouldn't want to tackle a surface-mount IC swap on a piece of expensive equipment. What you have to look-out for are two things: Solder bridges between those .050 mm leads (easy to do, easier to not see). At least that's correctable. Not as correctable are lifted traces and lifted pads from the circuit board. if I had a dollar for every time I've done that...

[gmgraves]

What on earth does Mill-Spec training have to do with this beyond your desire to put airs on? There is video after video on youtube of people instructing how to do this sort of stuff with simple tools and techniques using more difficult parts than you would ever find needing in op-amp replacements.

Somehow at age 51 I am capable of doing a lot with a $50 soldering iron with a regular pointed tip, good light and an $30 optivisor using simple no clean flux and some solder wick. I am not suggesting a newbie mod a 5K DAC, but this is no where near as difficult as you make it seem. The parts in this thread aren't even surface mount, but the same holds true for replacing them as it does for the 8 pin DIPs such as theses. If you need to replace a surface mount op amp (SOIC), cutting the legs off and removing the pins one by one is still viable and pretty easy.

 

 

What it has to do with anything is merely to show that even though I have professional training and many, many years of soldering experience, I'm still not comfortable de-soldering and re-soldering surface-mount components on a circuit board -especially on an expensive piece of equipment. No other reason. No "airs", no braggadocio, simply emphasizing that this operation is NON-TRIVIAL enough to give even a seasoned "professional" pause (or at least, it SHOULD do)!

[sandyk]

Unfortunately, for some of us, our hands aren't as steady as when we were younger, and the cutting the legs off method becomes more viable. Another problem is that not all Solder wick is the same, with Gootwick being among the better types. These days I also apply a a few drops of flux from a flux pen to the solder wick as well.

 

Alex

[4est]

But these are not surface mount parts? I am just saying surface mount is pretty doable as an amateur.

What it has to do with anything is merely to show that even though I have professional training and many, many years of soldering experience, I'm still not comfortable de-soldering and re-soldering surface-mount components on a circuit board -especially on an expensive piece of equipment. No other reason. No "airs", no braggadocio, simply emphasizing that this operation is NON-TRIVIAL enough to give even a seasoned "professional" pause (or at least, it SHOULD do)!

[gmgraves]

But these are not surface mount parts? I am just saying surface mount is pretty doable as an amateur.

 

 

Many pieces of high-end audio equipment use surface-mount op-amps. And it is unbelievably easy to lift pads when removing or replacing them. Just a bit too much heat, a little too long, and you have hosed an expensive circuit board. My comments are simply a caveat for those who have never ruined a circuit board that way (I wish I could say that I was one of them, but alas...). IOW, Learn from my mistakes, not yours! After all, mine are cheaper for you.

[4est]

Of course there are components that use surface mount chips, but these replacements will not work in those circuits as these are DIP8. I am not sure what is so hard to understand why discussing them is not applicable in this thread. I only commented because you made it seem that they are extremely difficult, near impossible- which they are not if you are careful and not ham fisted.

Many pieces of high-end audio equipment use surface-mount op-amps. And it is unbelievably easy to lift pads when removing or replacing them. Just a bit too much heat, a little too long, and you have hosed an expensive circuit board. My comments are simply a caveat for those who have never ruined a circuit board that way (I wish I could say that I was one of them, but alas...). IOW, Learn from my mistakes, not yours! After all, mine are cheaper for you.

[jabbr]

They're do-able if you have the right temperature controlled soldering iron, and the correct surface-mount soldering tip, and if you are a good solder-er. I have a Mil-Spec soldering certification (Lockheed sent me to soldering school, but it was many years ago) and I wouldn't want to tackle a surface-mount IC swap on a piece of expensive equipment. What you have to look-out for are two things: Solder bridges between those .050 mm leads (easy to do, easier to not see). At least that's correctable. Not as correctable are lifted traces and lifted pads from the circuit board. if I had a dollar for every time I've done that...

 

This (or something like it):

Robot Check

 

will save a lot of SMD grief.

[gmgraves]

Of course there are components that use surface mount chips, but these replacements will not work in those circuits as these are DIP8. I am not sure what is so hard to understand why discussing them is not applicable in this thread. I only commented because you made it seem that they are extremely difficult, near impossible- which they are not if you are careful and not ham fisted.

 

 

You mis-understand my comments, I think. The TI LME49710 IS available as a surface mount IC (as well as a TO99 can). I wasn't referring in my posts about surface mount to the Burson V5s. They are simply (IMHO - looking at the specs of both) not as good as the LME497XX series of IC op-amps, so I wouldn't consider them (plus they are very expensive).

[jabbr]

You know me Alex, I believe in DIY audio. If one looks back, DIY is the core of audio enthusiasm historically and quite empowering. People are likely to get more bang for buck doing things such as this vs swapping some cables. Not to disparage cables or start an off topic cable debate. I have some pretty pricey cabling that many, including you Alex IIRC, would think silly. I believe they make a difference at times, but no where near as much as circuit and part changes.

 

This is certainly true.

 

The differences that cabling makes is vanishingly small compared with circuit changes. I think there is an obsession about cables because changing cables is very easy, whereas changing op amps in this case is much harder. I do think that discrete circuits are generally better than integrated, witness Nelson Pass, Curl, Borbely, Self etc. etc.

 

Like you I have a DSC1 and would be willing to try the discrete swap, although I am even more inclined to swap the entire circuit for a discrete I-V, e.g. Zen/Sen based, as well as discrete SK filter e.g. B1 based or similar.

 

Using the toaster oven/reflowster SMD technique is pretty smooth, and placing surface mount is much much easier than *re*placing

[Deaf Cat]

The differences that cabling makes is vanishingly small compared with circuit changes. I think there is an obsession about cables because changing cables is very easy, whereas changing op amps in this case is much harder....

 

I would be inclined to agree :-)

Not knowing much about electronics or soldering, I spent ages upon ages picking out cables that would give what I was after. Thinking that my set up could produce all the info. that was required, but picking the cables that would let the weaker parts of the info through was a task and a half. However, after a lot of searching I managed to find the best interconnect and speaker cables for my kit and ears.

Then I listened to a system that had £1.99 speaker cable and basic VDH interconnects and it was FAB!! - he was an electronics engineer with a very keen interest in hifi, modded cdp, modded amps, self build active crossover, modded speakers etc so Yes I was of the opinion that tinkering with the electronics made far greater difference than cable swaps - Hence the purchase of a soldering iron ;-0

I am no where the stage of attempting an op amp swap as of yet, but swapping over one in a socket :-D

 

If I find any more op amps anywhere I think I may be inclined to have someone put a socket in for me, we shall see how my XTA performs with a couple of bursons :-)

[mac_and_dac]

Definitely worth a try.

 

My hearing isn't the best, but I can hear a difference between the stock op amps in my DAC (NE5532/4) and the upgraded op amps I have tried in their place.

 

It's not a huge difference, but then again I don't hear a huge difference between DACs per se, so maybe someone else might consider it a big difference.

 

As usual, judge with your ears.

[TJHUB]

I modified my last couple of DACs with Burson op amps. In both cases, the DACs gained a significant increase clarity and a much richer tone. Please understand that clarity includes significant increases in imaging, palpabiliy, and sense of dimension.

 

My current DAC is an Eastern Electric Minimax DAC Plus. I tried many of the usual op amps before trying Burson V3 op amps. Once the Burson's were installed, I stopped looking for something better.

 

Last April, a friend that has my exact DAC, but with DEXA op amps, brought his to my house so we could compare. The two were more similar than different, but I could hear more definition and details from the DAC with the DEXAs. I finally decided to buy DEXAs to replace the Burson's about a month ago. When I went to buy them, I saw they now offered a Special Edition version, so that's what a purchased. I would say they have slightly better clarity, better bass definition, and a slightly higher pitch and more detailed treble, with great midrange tone over my V3 Burson's.

 

One aspect that also factored into my decision was the physical size of op amps. The Burson V3's are rather large, and forced me to add spacers to the lid of my DAC. The DEXAs allow me to put the lid on normally, and they run cooler. I would have easily considered these small package Burson's had I known about them.

[4est]

Thank you - for the camaraderie if nothing else. FWIW, I just ordered the a set of balanced DSC1 boards that are entirely SMD with no existing I/V in so that I can play with the I/V stages. I have yet to dare try the toaster oven method, but I have purchased the appropriate solder. Seeing as I had to purchase the boards as a set of three, I may just try it with the extra one!

This is certainly true.

 

The differences that cabling makes is vanishingly small compared with circuit changes. I think there is an obsession about cables because changing cables is very easy, whereas changing op amps in this case is much harder. I do think that discrete circuits are generally better than integrated, witness Nelson Pass, Curl, Borbely, Self etc. etc.

 

Like you I have a DSC1 and would be willing to try the discrete swap, although I am even more inclined to swap the entire circuit for a discrete I-V, e.g. Zen/Sen based, as well as discrete SK filter e.g. B1 based or similar.

 

Using the toaster oven/reflowster SMD technique is pretty smooth, and placing surface mount is much much easier than *re*placing