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Which one to buy: UpTone USB REGEN or Intona USB Isolator?

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Interesting reading these comments...thanks for the feedback.

 

I've never found "galvanic isolation" in DACs to be a big deal universally. Most well made DACs are designed such that any noise induced would be 110db below the signal level even without official "galvanic isolation".

 

Nevertheless, it appears that the Intona is benefiting some DAC/server combinations, which is both interesting and puzzling at the same time.

 

BTW guys, there is another Regen type device out there for you guys to play with...BMC PureUSB1. I believe it's actually been out longer than even the Regen/iFi devices, but it got no traction/reviews. I understand it will be getting a rave review online soon, so I'm sure some of you may want to give it a try/comparison.

 

Scuttlebutt is that it compared favorably to the Regen, but it looks to me like just a hub inserted into a USB cable.

 

I'm sure one or more of you will try it at some point. After trying a bunch of these devices/power supplies/etc, I'm done for awhile. However, if I hear something worthwhile at CES next week, I'll try to post.

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It should work with all compliant USB 2.0 cables, unless there is a compatibility problem with the Berkeley Alpha USB converter .

 

$358 is a lot of money to take a chance on unless there is a good guarantee.

 

My understanding is that most USB cables are not compliant. Call up the company name on the package, they'll say no, or they don't know. I've done it. There are exceptions, like Belden and others. Many audiophile cables also don't meet the spec.

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My understanding is that if the cable has USB 2.0 stamped on the cable's jacket in several places along the length, then it should be USB 2.0 compliant. I am not surprised that many companies don't know if their cables meet the relevant specifications.

There is even a highly detailed standard for USB plugs .

 

USB cables such as the Curious cables, due to their construction, are highly unlikely to meet USB 2.0 specifications.


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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It should work with all compliant USB 2.0 cables, unless there is a compatibility problem with the Berkeley Alpha USB converter .

 

Hi there Alex,

 

Please be careful a bit because ... almost none of the "2.0 imprinted" cables is really 2.0 compliant. And I can know, because we use a DAC for a while now, requiring the high speed.

Buy 10 random 2.0 compliant different brand cables and maybe one works. Maybe. This includes the audiophile ones.

 

And maybe I even know a bit more about it now, because finally (although since a year ago already) we make our own USB cables (Clairixa).

 

Below you see an example of why a (China produced in (explicit) secrecy) very official USA sold high speed - and not even cheap (actually the most expensive I could find) 200 meters was returned because it did not work :

 

USB20.jpg

 

(from one of the larger cable suppliers in the USA)

 

Now you see, this is not twisted. Of course they told me at first it just was, but twisted is to be "even" and then the power wires are supposed to be curled around the data wires nicely even, just the same.

They were NOT able to send me a decent spool and they gave up and my money was returned (not the shipping costs).

 

I have more nice stories about the USB cable sh*t as nobody is really using the high speed, as it seems. Do notice that 2x 24/192 is not that (12Mbit Full Speed suffices for that). The Phasure NOS1a uses 49Mbit (at 32/768 input).

If you have some spare time and see how pathetic things are, read in here : Clairixa USB but promise yourself to skip to the Background of Development paragraph, half way in that lengthy post.

In that case I didn't even get my money back. And I still hate it to re-order at that company, but alas, their cable itself is great.

 

Regards,

Peter


Lush^2      Blaxius^2      Ethernet^2     HDMI^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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Hi Peter

In that case, why are they being permitted to get away with it ? It's false advertising to brand a component as meeting the relevant standards when it clearly does not !

In any event, I normally use Belkin USB 2.0 cables , with the lengths cut to my requirements, and I re-terminate the USB-A plug end on to a new solder type USB-A plug with the red (+5V) wire not connected.

Regards

Alex


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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Alex,

 

Because the suppliers don't know it themselves. It is very very hard to find the real USB cable *manufacturers* as all operates in secrecy. Belkin, I think, is such a genuine manufacturer. The cable we use (crazy expensive) I think is manufactured by that company themselves, I buy it from but is hard to prove at the distance.

 

The other day I was researching genuine 75 Ohm BNC-RCA adapters. Van den Hul has them, according their website.

Now I know Mr van den Hul as he lives next door to me and I know his company too. They surely don't produce them. Additionally I know how hard it is to find the real thing (world wide) so I asked him how *HE* would know it is the real thing.

He didn't answer me but instead went furious because I didn't trust him, as he told me.

My conclusion : he too doesn't really know.

 

I tried to ask about the proper impedance of cables as well, but instead I received a physics lecture and how silver is reacting with blablabla and the impedance story carefully was avoided.

Edit : It is some times quite easy to find the untruth in things, because companies really doing this stuff would need vector network analysers and what not, costing 300K or so. No audio company is going to spend that money, and no PC company does that. Telecom companies yes, but they use different cables ...

I have been searching for such machinery myself, but it really is undoable (too expensive).

 

Talking to the Gods ... also does not help.


Lush^2      Blaxius^2      Ethernet^2     HDMI^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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Because the suppliers don't know it themselves. It is very very hard to find the real USB cable *manufacturers* as all operates in secrecy.

 

I buy cables that are USB certified (have the official USB HiSpeed Certified label). You can also check the certified cables here:

USB.org - Product Search

 

Edit : It is some times quite easy to find the untruth in things, because companies really doing this stuff would need vector network analysers and what not, costing 300K or so. No audio company is going to spend that money, and no PC company does that. Telecom companies yes, but they use different cables ...

I have been searching for such machinery myself, but it really is undoable (too expensive).

 

I don't buy audio cables where manufacturer cannot state technical specs. For analog, I use Supra (Jenving) cables, because they publish proper specs with capacitance and inductance and I agree with their design principles (minimizing capacitance for interconnect and minimizing inductance for speaker cables).

 

But for any RF stuff where you need some RF impedance, just don't bother with audio companies but go for the companies who do RF stuff. For 75-ohm cables I've been using RG-59 with 75-ohm BNC connectors. And for 50-ohm cables (audio measurement, etc) I've been using RG-58 with 50-ohm BNC connectors. It is not even expensive. Then you of course have the other real RF connectors like SMA/SMB/SMC.

 

For RCA connectors with some specs, go for WBT:

Products

Product: nextgen

And in general Neutrik makes proper connectors for RCA/BNC/etc (don't buy the fake clones!).


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Fun fact: over 90% of the world's USB cable is produced in several factories in southern China, in the Shenzhen - Guangdong area. I only know because I've worked in China for many years. It's not hard to "find" the USB cable factories, they're visible and known in the area, you just have to know about them.

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Does it work well for a M2Tech Evo USB to Spif converter?

The way will be: PC -> Intona -> Evo -> DAC

 

In the Intona, the usb output and input connectors are Type-A or Type-B?

 

The Intona input connector is USB B.

 

The Intona output connector is USB A.

 

As for the M2Tech, if driverless for Windows to 96-24, should work. OSX no problemo.


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This afternoon was an exercise in frustration in transmitting through the Intona Isolator to a Mutec MC-1.2 on OSX and Windows. The Mutec MC-1.2 is either a USB Powered or mains powered USB to AES3/S/PDIF/Toslink converter. It requires a driver for Windows, but no driver required for OSX. For these tests, only USB power was used and multiple reboots to ensure reliability, or until something broke, which in this case didn't take long.

 

Previously OSX worked, until the MacMini is rebooted, and the Mutec is gone from the system once the machine is ready to go. Not the outcome I had expected. The Intona flashes a steady 5Hz LED meaning, there's no traffic. AudioMidi detects nothing. Added a simple USB 2 hub on the OUTPUT of the Intona, and the Mutec is there again, but there's no sound from HQPlayer. Start again.

Tried a few different USB cables from the Generic to the exotic without rebooting and all worked with a USB stick, but a few worked with the Mutec, but no consistency as to which cable was rock steady. Proof of the pudding is a reboot, and no cables worked properly, even the USB hub trick didn't work either again, must have been lucky.

 

OK, move on to Windows, see if that works somehow previously didn't at all.

 

Windows is a little more sensitive to cabling than OSX. Tried Oyaide Continental and wouldn't work, but Nordost Blue Heaven worked OK as far as the Intona was concerned with rapid LED flashing. That joy was short lived though, cause there's no output to listen to music. Device Manager reported the ! and USBview also showed !. The mouse and keyboard are on PS2 ports, so the only other USB device was a hub on the Dell monitor with nothing plugged into the ports.

 

The control panel sound cpl didn't show the Mutec at all with the Intona until the USB input cable was unplugged and re-inserted. The Mutec was now in control panel, but the test to play the ding dong sound failed.

Every cold restart of the computer,the Mutec sat there, with Device Manager reporting !. The Mutec defaulted to 48kHz sample rates every time the computer rebooted, even though the Sound cpl was set to 192k 24bit.

 

It's as if the handshaking doesn't happen, and am not prepared to plug/unplug the Intona every time the computer reboots, f%^k that, even then, the settings won't stick.

 

So the afternoon was wasted, but a valuable lesson learned. The Intona isolator works on USB sticks, keyboards quite well, but is useless for small portable hard drives, native USB Audio Class 2 or a device that needs a driver. Not prepared to try other DACs either, thought something simple would work, but not to be.

 

I'll stick with AES3.

 

Finita la musica, passata la fiesta.


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This probably has nothing to do with the present problem, but many experience similar problems with some USB devices.

USB has been problematical with me too, with Devices disappearing, or coming and going at times with W8/64, especially with an Elements USB HDD..

What worked for me was as posted in another forum, but may need to be checked again if playing up again :

 

CONTROL PANEL -Power Options - Change Advanced Power Settings - USB Settings - USB Selective Suspend Setting - Change to Settings Disabled. Apply.


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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I have the industrial version of the Intona. From PeterSt recommendations, when I ordered it, I asked not to have the led blinking when playing music. Daniel of Intona graciously agreed to do this modification, so the led stays steady (no blinking) once Windows is loaded.

 

I haven't encountered any problem since I got it last Wednesday, but the Phasure NOS1, while requiring the USB handshake (this was at least true at the time I was using a Sotm USB 3 PCIe card, that I now have replaced with a Silverstone PCIe card), does not need the USB vbus at all after. Maybe that explains why I don't have any problem of the sort...

 

I hesitated before posting, since I read what many of you write regularly and I know that you are quite more experienced that I... There must be an explanation for these problems, but I suppose that the solution may not be to one's taste...

 

IIRC, Daniel talks about the potential problem of not having sufficient amperage and/or voltage when requiring the USB Vbus ?

 

At this time I have a 90 ohm iUSB blue cable (15 inch long) between the PC and the Intona, with a Phasure Clairixa USB cable.between the Intona and the Phasure NOS1. This, with Win 8 pro 64 bit plain vanilla (no update at all).

 

I know this does not help much to post this, but...

 

Regards,


Alain

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I have the industrial version of the Intona. From PeterSt recommendations, when I ordered it, I asked not to have the led blinking when playing music. Daniel of Intona graciously agreed to do this modification, so the led stays steady (no blinking) once Windows is loaded.

 

I haven't encountered any problem since I got it last Wednesday, but the Phasure NOS1, while requiring the USB handshake (this was at least true at the time I was using a Sotm USB 3 PCIe card, that I now have replaced with a Silverstone PCIe card), does not need the USB vbus at all after. Maybe that explains why I don't have any problem of the sort...

 

I hesitated before posting, since I read what many of you write regularly and I know that you are quite more experienced that I... There must be an explanation for these problems, but I suppose that the solution may not be to one's taste...

 

IIRC, Daniel talks about the potential problem of not having sufficient amperage and/or voltage when requiring the USB Vbus ?

 

At this time I have a 90 ohm iUSB blue cable (15 inch long) between the PC and the Intona, with a Phasure Clairixa USB cable.between the Intona and the Phasure NOS1. This, with Win 8 pro 64 bit plain vanilla (no update at all).

 

I know this does not help much to post this, but...

 

Regards,

 

Hi AlainGr,

 

It would be great if you could share your description of how the Intona affected the sound quality of your system.

 

Thanks.

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So this is pretty much a repost of what I put on Phasure.com. My Itona USB isolator came a few days ago and I got a chance to listen to it for about 8 hours total now. Here's some detail of my system copied from my Phasure forum signature, some of it will mean nothing to those not using XXHiEnd playback software but you'll get an idea of the specifics of my music server and system components.

W10-10074 XX HighEnd 2.03 PC -> i7 3930K AS Rock MB W/ Dexa Neutron Star & linear PS supply mod. For Processor Clock, Hyperthreading On (12 cores) @430MHz (!), 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit Insider Preview build 10074 Samsun SSD, XXHE on 2GB RAMDisk (IMDisk), music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS W10 = .14(max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / W8 Scheme = Core 3-5, W10 Scheme = Core 1-3 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive 2GB RAMDisk (IMDisk) / UnAttended (Just Start) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - *Not Persist* / WallPaper Off, W10 Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *63* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = On / *Custom Filter Mid 705600* / -> USB3 (Silverstone W/Dexa Neutron Star Clock & Linear PS> *Clairixa USB* -> Uptone Regen w/ Dexa Neutron Star & linear PS -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*4ms*) -> Blaxius BNC interlink -> 8 channels of Hypex NCore 400's -> DYI BD Orphean Horns w/ qty-3 custom 15" open baffle bass drivers and qty-8 12" open baffle subwoofers per channel.

 

 

I first listened to my current setup which has a NeutronStar clock modified Uptone Regen USB re-clocker running off a lithium Ion battery power supply. The sound was as usual: very nice detail, ambiance, deep nicely scaled soundstage and nice black background.

 

 

Out came the Regen and in went the Itona with a short generic USB from the PC and the Phasure Clarixa 1m USB to the NOS1a 75b.

 

 

So I don't want to sound hyperbolic but, I was literally stunned at the difference! Like a complete removal of blur, smear and distortion. And this was in all important areas; frequency response, timing and dynamics. Every song I played was just so much more detailed and right. What really stood out was the delicacy of quiet passages but the incredible slam and quickness of percussion and piano. And the decay seemed infinite, just so natural. And the natural shimmer to cymbals better than I've ever heard from my system.

 

 

We all have known the feeling of running through our favorites and hearing them as new again, but Wow! this was pretty dramatic.

 

Todd

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I have the industrial version of the Intona. From PeterSt recommendations, when I ordered it, I asked not to have the led blinking when playing music. Daniel of Intona graciously agreed to do this modification, so the led stays steady (no blinking) once Windows is loaded.

 

This Intona device is intriguing: for a good while there was no such USB isolator for the highest speeds.

 

If you are going the route of optimising by having no blinking LED, assuming there was a circuit causing its own digititis there, why not turn out the LED completely?


Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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Hi YashN,

 

See Intona High Speed USB 2.0 galvanic isolation, it will help to understand :)

 

But to summarize: Peter tried the Intona, but the first contact was not good. After reading here at CA about it, I came back to Peter. He communicated with Daniel (from Intona) and there was a back and forth exchance of communications. After that Peter received a new Intona Isolator and this time he really liked it. In his report he (Peter) suggests that we ask Daniel to do deactivate the blinking led when ordering, so he does it already.

 

But my guess is that you need to mention it, either by email or with instructions through Paypal...

 

It only blinks when the PC is turned on (at "full speed" > 12mbit), but as soon as Windows is loaded and the USB output is at its high speed (480mbit), the led stops blinking :)

 

I am not sure this is what you mean, but if I was to open it, I am sure I would make a mess and completely destroy it (by accident of course) ;)

 

Regards,


Alain

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Hi YashN,

 

See Intona High Speed USB 2.0 galvanic isolation, it will help to understand :)

 

I am not sure this is what you mean, but if I was to open it, I am sure I would make a mess and completely destroy it (by accident of course) ;)

 

No, this isn't what I mean in my post, and the thread doesn't add anything to what I already know.

 

If we're going so far as to disable the blinking LED by disabling a circuit which makes it blink, why not remove the LED completely for better SQ.

 

Isn't that already clear here?:

 

If you are going the route of optimising by having no blinking LED, assuming there was a circuit causing its own digititis there, why not turn out the LED completely?

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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If we're going so far as to disable the blinking LED by disabling a circuit which makes it blink, why not remove the LED completely for better SQ.

 

If an LED is supplied power via DC from the main power supply area , and not via a pulsing source, it will not generate noise, and neither will the leads connecting it radiate noise. Modern LEDs are so quiet, that they are often used as low noise voltage references in Super Regulators and PSUs in general. A typical non superbright red, green , yellow or amber LED for example, (check the manufacturer's Data sheet for further details) has a forward voltage of approx. 1.8V at a relatively low current of a couple of mA, and a Blue LED typically around 3.0V at a couple of mA. Their forward voltage increases with current. It is often possible to select a closer voltage reference value from a batch of the same type of LEDs.


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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Hi AlainGr,

 

It would be great if you could share your description of how the Intona affected the sound quality of your system.

 

Thanks.

Hi Cmarin,

 

As in many things I have tried through time, it did not come to me like night and day. There is a fluidity that I perceive, but it happened before (like with the Regen at first).

 

To give an example, I was amazed when I connected the Green Regen on my system, under Windows 8. Then I switched to Windows 10 (one of the preview versions) at the same time I received the Amber Regen board. That time, I was less sure of the results. Windows 10 does not sound the same as Windows 8, so... After a while, I removed the Regen and preferred to play music without it.

 

Each time I tried something with the Phasure NOS1, there was always a sense of "not sure", so I tend to prefer having just a USB cable between my music PC and the NOS1. In short, I prefer simplicity :)

 

I tend to not expect changes because my hearing is not that sensitive and it would not stand a DBT (it takes me too much time to sense a change), so I do not post often about my impressions.

 

The Intona really does something that I would qualify as "fluid". There is no "pros and cons". Maybe an example would be an optical signal ? "Silences are more silent", small details are more discernable. But the biggest aspect of it is that it feels as if there was something played in an analog fashion.

 

A good recording with percussions may express what I am trying to convey.

 

Time will tell if I will stay with these impressions. What I hear for the moment is simply better than what I was hearing before, but YMMV is as always.

 

If you go to the link I left in my previous answer to YashN, you will be able to read other posts and the little story behind it :)

 

Regards,


Alain

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This probably has nothing to do with the present problem, but many experience similar problems with some USB devices.

USB has been problematical with me too, with Devices disappearing, or coming and going at times with W8/64, especially with an Elements USB HDD..

What worked for me was as posted in another forum, but may need to be checked again if playing up again :

 

CONTROL PANEL -Power Options - Change Advanced Power Settings - USB Settings - USB Selective Suspend Setting - Change to Settings Disabled. Apply.

 

Also that setting is available in Device Manager under properties of the individual USB host controllers/Hub. Samsung magician software has removed the advanced power usb settings, I do recall this setting from other computers and disabling helps with Dacs and hard drives on the same usb hub.


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No, this isn't what I mean in my post, and the thread doesn't add anything to what I already know.

 

If we're going so far as to disable the blinking LED by disabling a circuit which makes it blink, why not remove the LED completely for better SQ.

 

Isn't that already clear here?:

Hi YashN,

 

Sorry, my bad. I don't know alas. I will point your post to Daniel (of Intona).


Alain

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Hi All

 

I just received my "industrial" Intona USB isolator, which I had hoped to run from my Macbook to my MSB Analogue DAC.

 

I only tried for a few minutes on Thursday (say about for 15 minutes), but could not get the Macbook to see the DAC thru the Intona. I had to go out for New Years so reluctantly I admitted defeat and reverted to my previous cabling

 

I used combinations of Curious, Nordost and Lightspeed Harmonic cables without success. I never rebooted the DAC during my trials, but without the isolator this did seem not matter, as without the isolator the DAC was always recognized after cabling changes.

 

I've emailed Daniel at Intona for possible help, hopefully I'll hear from him later this week, but thought I'd post my experience here so as to prevent other MSB Analogue DAC owners from purchasing this until I get to the bottom of what is going on with the DAC and the isolator.

 

If the forum members have any suggestions, I'd be happy to try them out.

 

Regards

Barry

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Hi Barry,

 

Have your tried this route: Macbook > cable > Intona > cable > USB 2 hub (itself powered) > cable > DAC ?

 

I know the chain is more complicated, but just to see if this is a voltage/amperage matter ?

 

Regards,


Alain

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Then I switched to Windows 10 (one of the preview versions) at the same time I received the Amber Regen board. That time, I was less sure of the results. Windows 10 does not sound the same as Windows 8, so... After a while, I removed the Regen and preferred to play music without it.

 

Hi Alain

Would you say that changing to Windows 10 caused an audible SQ degradation, or that Windows 10 made the Regen less needed for similar results ? I am asking this, as I keep getting nagging messages to upgrade to Windows 10 from W8/64, but I don't wish to take a step backwards in SQ.

 

Kind Regard

Alex


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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