Which one to buy: UpTone USB REGEN or Intona USB Isolator?

[sandyk]

So what makes the Curious cables so unique as to be able to carry that signal? Surely it must be a real "electrical" characteristic that may or may not coexist also as an "audiophile" (as in something one can hear) characteristic.

 

I'm interested in the Intona too, but it seems to be a gamble whether it will work with a particular setup or not.

 

Is the Curious cable the universal enabler? Or one of them, anyway?

 

It should work with all compliant USB 2.0 cables, unless there is a compatibility problem with the Berkeley Alpha USB converter .

$358 is a lot of money to take a chance on unless there is a good guarantee.

[sandyk]

My understanding is that if the cable has USB 2.0 stamped on the cable's jacket in several places along the length, then it should be USB 2.0 compliant. I am not surprised that many companies don't know if their cables meet the relevant specifications.

There is even a highly detailed standard for USB plugs .

 

USB cables such as the Curious cables, due to their construction, are highly unlikely to meet USB 2.0 specifications.

[sandyk]

Hi Peter

In that case, why are they being permitted to get away with it ? It's false advertising to brand a component as meeting the relevant standards when it clearly does not !

In any event, I normally use Belkin USB 2.0 cables , with the lengths cut to my requirements, and I re-terminate the USB-A plug end on to a new solder type USB-A plug with the red (+5V) wire not connected.

Regards

Alex

[sandyk]

This probably has nothing to do with the present problem, but many experience similar problems with some USB devices.

USB has been problematical with me too, with Devices disappearing, or coming and going at times with W8/64, especially with an Elements USB HDD..

What worked for me was as posted in another forum, but may need to be checked again if playing up again :

 

CONTROL PANEL -Power Options - Change Advanced Power Settings - USB Settings - USB Selective Suspend Setting - Change to Settings Disabled. Apply.

[sandyk]

If we're going so far as to disable the blinking LED by disabling a circuit which makes it blink, why not remove the LED completely for better SQ.

 

If an LED is supplied power via DC from the main power supply area , and not via a pulsing source, it will not generate noise, and neither will the leads connecting it radiate noise. Modern LEDs are so quiet, that they are often used as low noise voltage references in Super Regulators and PSUs in general. A typical non superbright red, green , yellow or amber LED for example, (check the manufacturer's Data sheet for further details) has a forward voltage of approx. 1.8V at a relatively low current of a couple of mA, and a Blue LED typically around 3.0V at a couple of mA. Their forward voltage increases with current. It is often possible to select a closer voltage reference value from a batch of the same type of LEDs.

[sandyk]

Then I switched to Windows 10 (one of the preview versions) at the same time I received the Amber Regen board. That time, I was less sure of the results. Windows 10 does not sound the same as Windows 8, so... After a while, I removed the Regen and preferred to play music without it.

 

Hi Alain

Would you say that changing to Windows 10 caused an audible SQ degradation, or that Windows 10 made the Regen less needed for similar results ? I am asking this, as I keep getting nagging messages to upgrade to Windows 10 from W8/64, but I don't wish to take a step backwards in SQ.

 

Kind Regard

Alex

[sandyk]

Hi Alain

I don't wish to stuff around going backwards and forwards between W8 and W10, besides which, after the 30 days grace period, you will not be legally permitted to have both versions installed , just as with all other upgrades, unless you purchase a copy of W10 as well.

I think that I will keep on ignoring that annoying W10 reminder until it becomes clearer about what is needed to extract the best SQ when using W10.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

[sandyk]

The explanation is that the bus powered drives draw over the spec of the Intona, however with regular use on computers, I have not seen an alarm on screen to advise the USB port is overloaded.

 

 

In that case , the USB port would likely end up being marked as faulty, without any on screen warnings ?

[sandyk]

Come on intona lets have a useable 1000mA at 5v or am I missing something?

 

When plugged into a USB 2.0 port you are limited to 500mA from the USB port. Out of this 500mA, the Intona Isolator would also need some of the available current to operate.

I am only speculating, but if you used a USB 2.0 cable plugged into a USB 3.0 port. you may be able to draw the additional needed current. Even DVD writers that normally need power from 2 USB 2.0 ports to operate, will work correctly using only the main lead when plugged into a USB 3.0 port.

[sandyk]

Now getting quite late in the day, listened to the regular test music on LCD-3 + Phonitor 2 supplied by RME ADI-2 DAC's TRS outputs, and noted these changes when the Intona 7054 was connected:

 

 

- Increased volume, particularly the bass

- Bass is far better defined and tighter

- Upper treble instruments are clearer to be distinguished, there are instruments or sounds that are now discoverable

- Easy to focus on (vocal) vibrato techniques (Jefferson Airplane - Triad MFSL)

 

 

Now, are the changes due to the Nordost USB cable in situ or the Intona or a combination. It's too hard to change the input USB cable again, since it means lengthy re-installs of the driver. I remember initial posts from users of the then (new) Regen, in that volume had increased, similar to a loudness function on an amp. The results are striking the same chord here with the Intona Based on the observations, as to the degree, well it's certainly eye opening. It is not possible to listen to music without the Intona from a USB system from now on. That's the result on headphones, in the next few days will try on speakers. I'm expecting stage height to be at least the same if not higher.

 

 

You are also likely to find with some material, that the wideband HF noise decrease results in an apparent decrease in volume, often with a noticeable decrease in harshness with some female voices ,while still having more "air" around them,while loud percussive material sounds louder, apparently due to the low level upper HF harmonics being "unmasked".

It's as if the dynamics have further improved !

Much of my listening is also via headphones, but when listening via speakers, ensure that any running A/C or fans are turned off.

[sandyk]

So the wideband HF noise is being modulated on the USB carrier and masking itself as actual signal when the DAC decodes, that's where you're coming from? Is the wideband noise artefacts from the PHY, or just common mode stuff that rides along from the host or both?

 

I would expect, in theory, this to apply to DSD, but listening so far is Redbook with some hires, all upsampled to 192k as far as content is concerned.

My guess at the volume would be at least 1-2db.

 

I would expect that it is mainly coming from the host, as I get the same when using a Regen with a low noise non SMPS with USB storage, when saved with the Regen in line, and then played back with the Regen inline, either from the PC via System Memory and an Asus Xonar soundcard via Coax SPDIF, or when plugged into a USB input of my Oppo 103 DAC with the Regen in line again, then via coax SPDIF into my main system. Unless the Regen is in line for playback as well, I don't get the improved dynamics that you describe. With existing material on the USB memory stick that wasn't saved there with the Regen in line at the time, I don't get any worthwhile benefit using the Regen for playback, but the same material that was recorded with the Regen in line is markedly improved as you described.

I took the USB memory stick and Regen along to a friend's place and the results were exactly the same from his Oppo 95 via Coax SPDIF and finally B&W 800 speakers.

Go figure !!!

[sandyk]

The problems you experience with those Curious USB cables suggest they must be seriously out of spec.

 

You're a braver man than I am, Gunga Din!

[sandyk]

Interesting, thanks genjamon. You may want to try powering the REGEN behind the Intona with a battery to preserve Galvanic Isolation.

 

+1

[sandyk]

How are people powering their Regens by batteries?

 

You could use a 7.2V Li Ion battery, but you will need to replace the output plug with the correct connector.

I am using the attached which receives power from a rechargeable 12V Li Ion battery ,regulated down to +9V then followed by a shunt regulator. It's DIY though.

 

[sandyk]

If you want the benefits of galvanically isolated power, there is really no other way.

 

At least not with USB, where any kind of minor coupling back to mains earth appears to cause some degradation. Even via the capacitance between primary and secondary sides of a transformer in a Linear PSU to some extent.

As they are suggesting in another thread, perhaps the E.E.s should have stuck with BNC ,or even F Type connectors which are also used with Broadband, Cable TV etc.

[sandyk]

Had a thought to obtain a bare-bones Intona, and mount a Regen in the same enclosure. Avoids several USB cables which can be expensive and cause impedance problems. Power supply for the Regen can be then battery, LPS built in the same enclosure, like an Acopian, whatever you like, quite few choices there.

 

If you are thinking of DIY using a linear PSU to avoid battery charging hassles, then a dual bobbin transformer which has less capacitive coupling through the primary and secondary windings back to mains earth, may be a better choice than even an r-core. In your case though, with your set up you shouldn't have mains earth loop problems at, all which is possibly why the Curious cables were far from an improvement, by opening up the possibility of RF/EMI ingress ?

[sandyk]

Or you use the JKenny Regen mod and power directly a 3.3V lithium battery to the board and skip the 5V power feed. Works great for DAC's not needing 5V or handshake.

 

Have you actually done that yourself ?

[sandyk]

Don't write off the USB Isolator until we see how it performs with the new "Mystery" PSU.

Distortion plots posted in another forum have already demonstrated how it's performance further improves with a Linear PSU that almost certainly won't be as good as the new Uptone PSU .

[sandyk]

Not sure if you meant, "Don't write off the Regen"? I still have the USB Isolator but not the Regen. I also had the Regen powered by my LPS at the 5v level, which would deactivate the Regen's own power [delivery] supply.

 

Sorry. I meant the Regen . Did you also try the Regen from a Linear PSU with the 7.5 V DC that it was designed to work with ?

[sandyk]

By making this statement you just called everyone that has used the Regen and benefitted from it all gullible fools. Nice first post.

 

I am even able to demonstrate that a CD ripped from an internal writer to a USB memory stick via an Uptone USB Regen, and either a 9V Linear PSU or a 9V battery derived supply, sounds better than the same CD ripped directly to the same USB memory stick. When the USB memory stick is then plugged into a Media player such as an Oppo 95 or 103, also via the Regen powered by the Linear or battery derived PSU, the difference in favour of the rip made using the Regen in line is even more marked !

A Bricasti M1 DAC further benefitted when using a USB Regen in line with the Bricasti's USB input at a listening session in Sydney where another C.A. member was also present. The difference became even more marked when the battery derived 9V Super Regulator supply was used instead of the supplied 7.5V SMPS.

[sandyk]

look man, this whole USB fixer thing is a fad. 99% of dacs now adays are ASYNCHRONOUS, meaning the incoming data clock is irrelevant. the power and ground can be an issue for sure, which is something the intona solves as there is no easy form galvanic isolation for usb2.0

 

what you are hearing when you put the regen in your system is confirmation bios and group think.

 

I don't use USB for Audio myself, as it is flawed, and you can spend more than the cost of your computer trying to extract the best from it. I use well implemented Coax SPDIF from an Asus Xonar soundcard into a highly modified X-DAC V3 which has an isolating transformer at it's input. . As for the USB memory stick when using a Regen with a modified USB cable (no +5V) , and even when powered by a Super Regulator PSU, it still can't match the SQ from the same music saved to an internal SSD powered by a 12V to 5V Regulator followed by a John Linsley Hood designed shunt regulator, when both are played from System Memory using A.S.I..O. and cPlay. When both versions are burned to the same CD-R and played via an Oppo 103 used as a transport into a higher quality DAC, the SSD version STILL sounds better, and which version is which can easily be identified with non sighted listening.

I don't give a rat's anus whether you believe me or not.

 

The problem with theory is that it rarely translates perfectly to practice. - r_w

 

+1

[sandyk]

Didn't i read that you cant use SPDIF for DSD?

I can definetely here much improved audio from dsd files.

 

That is correct about not being able to use SPDIF with DSD, however if they put a fraction of the effort into further developing SPDIF or i2s ,that they have into making USB Audio more viable for Mac Mini users, it could more than likely do just as well, if not better, without additional in line add-ons.

I don't need or want DSD, as I believe that it is no better than well implemented 24/192 with a DAC that has superior output filtering, and it is highly unlikely to remain any more than a niche product with musical content limited to mainly a few genres. I can't see it becoming mainstream without the support of the Majors.

 

Re my 2nd last paragraph that you quoted.

Dennis (esldude) will soon be making available for passing around between genuinely interested members, a comparison CD for those members who still have a high quality CD player, and a better than average system, to see if they are able to hear the differences that several other Sydney C.A. members, including Computer Audiophile (Dr. David L) are so readily able to hear via their well above average gear. Any members that are genuinely interested should contact Dennis directly.

[sandyk]

I usually agree with your opinions, but not on this topic. But i will agree to disagree with you (grin).

I firmly believe using the same hardware (something that supports both PCM and DSD), and using native DSD "professionally" recorded material, will sound MUCH better than a PCM recorded file (on a totally different level, that anyone would agree on any double-blind test). There may be some poor DSD recordings and some great PCM recordings that would be an exception, but that would be the exception.

 

I do agree it will never win over mainstream, but i don't think redbook wins over mainstream either. i am talking just audio quality, not popularity.

 

Only a few well heeled Audiophiles are likely to get rid of a far better than average DAC to buy a new DSD capable DAC in order to get a limited selection of DSD material in genres that may not be of interest to them. Barry D. prefers 24/192 over DSD, and I honestly doubt that Barry is saying that simply because he records in high res PCM. Well recorded RBCD can sound stunning though,(after being ripped, but not so much through most affordable CD players) through a much better than average system. Unfortunately, these days they are not so easy to obtain, except perhaps with a few Classical and Jazz recordings.

[sandyk]

Quote Originally Posted by r_w View Post

 

The Regen was a good start in the direction of solving USB's noise/clocking issues, it was a good product and it improved my system.

 

Since then, the combo of Intona and W4S Recovery has taken my system to 'max enjoyment', USB's known problems appear to have been banished.

 

+1

 

I have found that even with a USB memory stick plugged directly into a rear motherboard USB 2.0 port, and files saved directly to there, that the SQ still can't quite match that of the same material saved to an internal SSD powered by a very clean +5V supply when both are exported via Coax SPDIF from an internal soundcard (Asus Xonar D2X) when played from System

memory using A.S.I.O. The USB memory stick SQ does however further improve if a USB Regen is used in line with it, both when saving to, and playing from it.

[sandyk]

Thanks for sharing the good tip. I'm trying it in ripping CDs and will see how it improves the SQ. Having high hope hers

 

Please note that I am also using either a very low noise +9V Linear PSU with a Shunt Super Regulator, or a 12V Li Ion battery supply regulated down to +9V and also using a Shunt Super Regulator, to power the USB Regen.

Uptone's new Mystery PSU may be able to do even better.