USB Disruptor

[4est]

+1 on the name!

A few years behind the curve? Ah yes and lets supply this with an el cheapo switching power supply and put another connector in the data signal...good name!

[Paul R]

Common guys - cut the chap some slack. Unless you have heard his Disruptor thing, then you don't know exactly what difference in the sound of your DAC it does or does not make.

 

Yes, I agree with Dennis about what he actually accomplished and the theory behind it, but that doesn't mean it can't be a worthwhile addition to an audiophile kit.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending it, just saying it would only be fair to give it a chance.

 

I don't plan to purchase or try one, as a Jitterbug does the same thing and I think it was designed by the guy who knows more about audio USB than anyone else I know. Also, just $49.

 

-Paul

[kumakuma]

Rob,

 

You mentioned "welding" on your website and in several of your posts. Don't you mean "soldering"?

 

A minor point, I know, but these things help with credibility. Especially when dealing with a tough crowd like this.

[robpriore]

Thanks Kilroy, I think you've said it right. This is an important place to exchange ideas and empirical evidence will go a long way, though not 100% of the time, as you suggest.

 

We are working on some testing, I've heard back from Jamie, my EE pal, and he says the following with regards to Elsdude's ideas:

 

He is using a little bit of wrong terminology, but his ideas are correct. The first two tests are how I was planning to test your device and I think that it's the most valid way to go about it. The null testing is also very interesting if it could be done reliably. It would be difficult, but it would be a way to do the so-called "time domain" test. We should run the tone test soon and find out what the noise floor differences are.

 

This is a path set in motion for USB Disruptor long before I replied to your thread on this forum.

 

Until then though, we have testimonials from our customers and Paul McGowan, CEO of PS Audio. At this stage, those testimonials have been enough to provide confidence in the efficacy of our new product. It has been enough so far to sell a good number of USB Disruptors with positive feedback from customers. We should have a magazine review out soon too.

 

So we're doing it, we're getting it done, and we're here now to answer any questions and make the product better. The feedback on this board has been great. We're even going to look at what Elsdude suggested, the null testing. So this forum is working as intended I think.

 

For USB Disruptor I'm trying to attract the folks who don't want to spend a lot, but want to get a lot in return. I've approached high end audio with that mantra for over two decades. I am not expecting people who have spent 10K or so on their Bricasti M1 DAC to rush out and buy USB Disruptor. What's ironic though is that I tested it on a Bricasti M1 and it sounded better! Those folks actually have to spend a lot before their brains will let them think the sound is better. It's like the classic blind wine test, where the majority all favor the one they think is priced higher.

 

Where I am trying to go, and where this path is leading me, is a place where I can confidently say that you will get the same quality sound as a Bricasti M1 for the cost of Schiit. Maybe I fail in that pursuit, but that's what motivates me.

[esldude]

Elsdude, I'm glad you made it clear about jitter. The theory is actually not about jitter, it's about extraneous noise generated from the actuation of the circuits inside the computer. The noise may affect the jitter but the noise does not necessarily cause the jitter.

 

Think of it like this: you would never knowingly plug your audio equipment into a power outlet circuit that shares your microwave, hot water heater, refrigerator, etc. You would never do this because the voltage spikes induced by those appliances coming on and off will affect your audio equipment. You might get pops that could possibly damage tweeters, you may get line noise that affects your amplifier, etc. I don't think we have to go far down this path. Every audiophile I ever met or knew would never knowingly plug in any sensitive audio equipment into a shared circuit.

 

So why would you then plug your most sensitive audio instrument, your DAC, into a filthy dirty computer USB port? You're plugging into the most crowded shared circuit of all time! The computer is loaded with circuits turning on and off, like little tiny microwaves and refrigerators, but like millions of them.

 

You can buy a $100 DAC with asynchronous USB and jitter is basically eliminated - but the extraneous noise, or noisy usb power, still infects the analog outputs of the DAC and everything else downstream. If you spend a lot more on a DAC and highly engineered USB cables you will get a different sound because of extra power management circuitry included in the DAC itself and USB cable manufacturing techniques designed to reduce extraneous noise. I believe many high end DAC manufacturers include a USB Disruptor type connection inside the DAC. That would make it sound a lot better than other DAC's.

 

The conclusion is to simply replace the dirty power feed with a much less noisy feed, thus USB Disruptor was born of this thought experiment.

 

Our testing and optimization, a continuous process I might add, was done using many different power supplies and hearing other products purportedly designed to solve the same problem. The power supply itself is the most expensive part of USB Disruptor. I spared no expense to find the best built and designed power supply with the right features to produce the best audio. I didn't have to build the power supply myself, there are far more qualified SME's for that. I specified what I wanted based on my knowledge of the relationship between high end audio and power management.

 

Don't forget, USB Disruptor does not handle the super sensitive audio frequencies that interconnects and speaker wires handle. All we deal with is delivering 1's and 0's. And we've tested our solution for bit perfect data functionality and it passes, just like every other certified USB cable on the planet!

 

I'm going to forward what you wrote to an electrical engineer who has been helping with this project. He's very skilled and works with a leading robotics firm. He had a similar problem with dirty USB power that was messing up test results for a project totally unrelated to audio. Eventually they learned it was the dirty power that was messing up the instruments. I think I'll ask him to write about that and I will post it here. He said he has access to test equipment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars so I'm going to defer to his thoughts on this.

 

It was this from your website which made me think you were keying on jitter due to noise pollution:

 

If you are using a USB DAC or USB to SPDIF converter when listening to high-resolution audio files, you may not be aware of something “extra” in your music that is preventing you from achieving the full aural experience. It’s not hissing, nor distortion. It is noise that has become part of the fabric of all the frequency bands in your music files. It is digital noise (or “jitter”), and this “extra” is added to your music and blocks the accurate reproduction of the silences and spacial reverberations that should be audible as part of the master recording. Bottom line, this noise robs discerning listeners of the delicate sounds they expect from higher fidelity files.

 

 

Jitter manifests itself as noise in the resulting output. Noise is something you can measure, and with nothing more than a plain USB 2.0 cable DAC's are cable of giving a low noise floor that would appear to be inaudible. If your device reduces noise whether from jitter of the receiving clock or simple noise pollution onto the analog output, it should be measurable.

 

I believe you mentioned using an Audiophilleo. That is also what I use. It seems quite well designed in limiting noise on the USB line from getting further downstream. So I would be interested in any noise measurements showing up at the output comparing your device in and out of the circuit.

[robpriore]

You are correct, it is soldering. Point taken -

[robpriore]

Thanks Paul. I appreciate your reasonable approach.

 

I did want to comment though about Jitterbug. It's not the same thing. USB Disruptor replaces the computer's 5 volt feed entirely. Jitterbug filters the power coming out of the computer. Do they accomplish the same ends? I don't think so. But as many have pointed out empirical data is needed to make the point. We're working on it!

[esldude]

Thanks Kilroy, I think you've said it right. This is an important place to exchange ideas and empirical evidence will go a long way, though not 100% of the time, as you suggest.

 

We are working on some testing, I've heard back from Jamie, my EE pal, and he says the following with regards to Elsdude's ideas:

 

He is using a little bit of wrong terminology, but his ideas are correct. The first two tests are how I was planning to test your device and I think that it's the most valid way to go about it. The null testing is also very interesting if it could be done reliably. It would be difficult, but it would be a way to do the so-called "time domain" test. We should run the tone test soon and find out what the noise floor differences are.

 

This is a path set in motion for USB Disruptor long before I replied to your thread on this forum.

 

Until then though, we have testimonials from our customers and Paul McGowan, CEO of PS Audio. At this stage, those testimonials have been enough to provide confidence in the efficacy of our new product. It has been enough so far to sell a good number of USB Disruptors with positive feedback from customers. We should have a magazine review out soon too.

 

So we're doing it, we're getting it done, and we're here now to answer any questions and make the product better. The feedback on this board has been great. We're even going to look at what Elsdude suggested, the null testing. So this forum is working as intended I think.

 

For USB Disruptor I'm trying to attract the folks who don't want to spend a lot, but want to get a lot in return. I've approached high end audio with that mantra for over two decades. I am not expecting people who have spent 10K or so on their Bricasti M1 DAC to rush out and buy USB Disruptor. What's ironic though is that I tested it on a Bricasti M1 and it sounded better! Those folks actually have to spend a lot before their brains will let them think the sound is better. It's like the classic blind wine test, where the majority all favor the one they think is priced higher.

 

Where I am trying to go, and where this path is leading me, is a place where I can confidently say that you will get the same quality sound as a Bricasti M1 for the cost of Schiit. Maybe I fail in that pursuit, but that's what motivates me.

 

Please don't take my questioning the wrong way. I am skeptical by nature. Certainly attempting to give Bricasti results for Schiit money is a noble endeavour.

[robpriore]

Digital noise as Jitter, I wasn't totally crazy about that phrase, it was written by an MIT engineer who does a lot of marketing work for a software company I used to work for. It's a bit oversimplified I think. We'll get to the bottom of it with testing.

 

Regarding Audiphilleo, which I've owned for years now and have a good relationship with Philip Gruebele, and I also have the Pure Power option - to me Audiophilleo was the solution, like the final solution. It should completely buffer any noise from the computer's USB output port. But it doesn't. Philip told me it's very hard to control noise, that it leaks in. Even with that I was very surprised when I added USB Disruptor to my reference setup with Audiophilleo/PurePower that it made the same difference, the same difference with every DAC i've plugged it into - the noise floor drops, sound stage expands, and instruments occupy space differently - they seem to be enclosed in their own discrete space so you can hear the silence between the notes. That's what inspired me to draw the graphic with the electric piano and singer. I wanted to portray it visually, it was really the only way I could communicate what I was hearing.

 

I would have bought an Uptone Audio Regen and Jitterbug but it just seemed wrong to me because the way the Audiophilleo is designed. The genesis of USB Disruptor is linked with my Audiophilleo experience - I had a feeling something was off. I've had that feeling for awhile about computer served audio. There just seemed to be something wrong - I couldn't verbalize it. And it didn't make sense because I was doing everything right - USB power isolation and super controlled voltage with PurePower, and those truly awesome clocks on the Audiophilleo.

 

So my conclusion, not based on empirical evidence of course, just by process of elimination, is that something is getting into the analog outputs of the DAC. And that is why USB Disruptor works, it gets the something out of there. Now, is it noise that spreads from the 5 volt vbus to the DAC itself, traveling along any metal surface, and basically infecting everything? Maybe.

 

Personally, I think the USB Disruptor does the same job as Regen and Jitterbug combined, and I would say better because we don't do any filtering - I don't like filtering anything in audio, and we cost a lot less. But that is just me saying that, I don't have objective evidence to prove it, except for the cost figures and the fact that the signal is running through a Jitterbug filter first, then it runs into the Regen which forces the signal through more filters and circuits. I like the path of least resistance and therefore I prefer a simpler less circuitous signal path. Don't mistake what I'm saying, it's not my goal to displace either of those good products. Like I said, I was going to buy those products before I invented USB Disruptor, so I think they are good.

[robpriore]

Thanks Elsdude

[kilroy]

I'll state the obvious because nobody else yet has. If your DAC doesn't use the 5v coming through the USB cable from the source, then this device has no effect. Correct?

 

So this is where the Regen would still be useful. The Jitterbug as well. My Vega does not need the 5v, so I have taped it off at the source, and still use the Regen and Jitterbug.

[tubesound]

I'll state the obvious because nobody else yet has. If your DAC doesn't use the 5v coming through the USB cable from the source, then this device has no effect. Correct?

 

So this is where the Regen would still be useful. The Jitterbug as well. My Vega does not need the 5v, so I have taped it off at the source, and still use the Regen and Jitterbug.

 

I was going to ask this same question. I have an Empirical Audio Short Block USB Filter (reduces common-mode noise) in my system which severs the +5V wire in the USB cable. In my setup, I don't think this Disruptor will do much.

[robpriore]

I get this question a lot. Yes, if you've already disrupted the 5 volt power feed by physically taping it off or cutting the red wire in the USB cable - ONLY IF YOUR DAC DOESN"T NEED THAT 5 volt power to operate or for the computer handshake - then USB Disruptor is not needed.

 

Initially I tried cutting the red wire but my Audiophilleo needs the power to charge the Pure Power device. It may also need it for the handshake to work.

 

This is a great strategy if you have a DAC that does not need the USB power to function or handshake. Everybody know what I mean by handshake? Just DIY the wire and you'll get the benefits of USB Disruptor. Please don't go chopping up your expensive USB cable though unless you are absolutely sure your DAC will work without the 5 volt power lead. Better to use a $2 USB 2.0 certified cable to test the theory.

 

I bet you anything that Aurilic disrupted the 5V inside the unit, giving the benefits of better sound. If I were designing a DAC I would do it that way too.

 

I may actually build a DAC next. I think there are so many great DAC's out there that it's crazy to not go back and hear them again with a properly implemented setup. Many can be had for pennies on the dollar!

[robpriore]

Kilroy, I'm confused about Regen and its effect, especially since you've got a Vega and you're not using the power feature of the Regen. Vega reclocks the incoming signal anyway, with probably a pretty decent clock setup - maybe one of the best anywhere. Do you think Regen is better at clocking than Vega? My DAC doesn't have sophisticated reclocking or USB input so I went with Audiophilleo - only because I had no choice. If I want to keep my DAC, which I do, then I've got to go the USB to SPDIF route, which I did.

 

In your case, I'm confused about what you're trying to accomplish. You already have the key setup, it seems adding Regen and Jitterbug is just gilding the lily.

 

If you're hearing a difference, I wonder why.

[tranz]

I'm looking forward to hearing your explanation as to what you mean by your statements.

 

 

Okay, you asked for it. Where to start? This and a few of your subsequent posts say enough, but let me start with your reply to me.

 

 

And you suggest we're a few years behind the curve. Whatever do you mean by that? What products are you referring to? What product is as elegant and simple a design? Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's cheap.

 

 

Might want to read up on your competitors. There is a wealth of info here from engineers that designed USB clean up devices. When did I purchase the IFI USB gear, 2-3 years ago? They have released Gen2 of their USB clean-up gear. When did Empirical Audio start with their shortblock? Do you even know what the Regen does, also in Gen2 now?

 

 

And the other people on this board should know you know nothing of our product, you've never tried it, you've never seen it...

 

 

Fair enough, I have not tried it. I saw your website picture, does that count?

 

 

..There is nothing cheap about the power supply, nothing cheap about my labor and welding...

 

 

If you look at your competitors they actually provide details about the power supply since it is an important piece of the puzzle, especially since you mention not touching the data connections. What is the p-t-p ripple? Is there filtering involved, and no, the magnet on the cable does not count?

I was going to mention something about welding, but looks like that was a typo.

 

...Why don't you visit our website...

 

I did, and saw this comforting picture:

 

 

I can barely believe you suggest we put another connector in the data signal

 

Seriously, so your disruptor is not a connector? You don't put one cable in and connect the output somewhere else? You already made it clear you don't do anything to the data, but there is still an extra connector in play.

 

 

 

If that's what you believe then you're putting down every product, and every effort to deal with this problem.

 

 

 

Bit presumptious perhaps? I am always one to try new products and listen to them. I have spent more on USB clean-up gadgets over the years than I ever wanted to. That includes the likes of Berkeley Audio, IFI and Uptone's Regen. I have heard and seen (using a scope) what improvements can be had.

 

 

...Your accusations have offended me...

 

 

What accusations? If you come here touting something that according to you is better than some of your competitors, as you state ..."does the same job as Regen and Jitterbug combined", you need to be able to back that up with a bit more than your personal sales-pitch opinion.

 

 

...does the same job as Regen and Jitterbug combined...

This one a few posts down is the icing on the cake and says much.

 

 

That being said, I wish you luck with your adventure as I am always for entrepreneurship and audio innovation.

[robpriore]

Your posting is indeed helpful to me. Others have pointed out the kinds of folks who frequent this board, lots of engineers and designers, and I am in agreement that skepticism is going to be a big part of this board. And I applaud that because I've seen so many crazy audio treatments without a shred of evidence presented, and even not so crazy audio stuff but with little evidence to support the claims.

 

But I do want to point out that my comment about USB Disruptor and Regen and Jitterbug is taken out of context a bit. I said I "personally believe" my solution does the same job as those combined because of my experience with Audiophilleo.

 

All USB Disruptor does is replace the computer 5 volt power with an independent feed. The feed itself only has to deliver consistent voltage, and it has the advantage of a much shorter pathway to travel leaving computer noise in the computer. The key aspects of the power supply that I provide, a very expensive unit for what it is, are the EMI and RFI cores and various protection circuits. I would much prefer a real cheapo power unit, I can get them for $1 on Parts Express, but they aren't quality and don't offer the extra components. I bet my power supply components are similar to what's in Regen and Jitterbug!

 

Anyway, I want to take back what I said about you offending me. I was wrong and this board is going to ultimately help me deliver a better product to my audiophile brothers and sisters. Mostly brothers though, why is that? Do women have different hearing? My wife always says I never listen to her.

[Don Hills]

Rob,

 

As I understand it, your device breaks the 5 volt line in the USB cable from the source (computer) and supplies 5 volts to the output (DAC) from an external power supply. Is that correct, or is there more to it?

 

It's not clear if you're using a 5 Volt plugpack, or a higher voltage unit with a 5 Volt regulator under the shrinkwrap. Either way, it appears to be a SMPS type rather than a transformer-rectifier ("linear") type. SMPS plugpacks have a capacitor between the mains side and the output side which can couple mains-borne noise to the output. This is likely happening in your unit, as you said that it can sound different depending on which way up you plug the pack into the wall socket. You could consider using a transformer type plug pack. They do not require the coupling capacitor and provide better isolation from mains borne noise (if properly designed.)

[tubesound]

This disruptor is essentially the same as AQVOX's USB audio power supply (€98): USB audio power supply, galvanical isolated, audiophile USB Power supply, isolated USB low noise transformer, USB DAC power supply, audiophile power supply

 

[Don Hills]

That's a good example - the AQVOX unit appears to use a transformer type supply.

[robpriore]

The power supply for USB Disruptor has specialized EMI and RFI cores to eliminate noise. The AQVOX unit is also phase dependent, and the sound may or may not change depending on how you have it plugged. That's on the AQVOX site as well.

 

My EE pal and I are hopefully going to be able to get some test data this weekend. I want to quantify these things and I'm confident we can get some useful test data.

 

The products are different, I've tested the AQVOX unit, it's very clunky for the US Market requiring an additional transformer to step the voltage down. It's not a US ready product, IMO.

 

That being said, everyone is free to try all these products and compare. In my case, I couldn't hear a difference between the USB Disruptor and the AQVOX unit. And of course the price differential is pretty striking. All in it's $130 or so for the shipping and step down transformer. USB Disruptor is $49 and from USA.

[tubesound]

The power supply for USB Disruptor has specialized EMI and RFI cores to eliminate noise. The AQVOX unit is also phase dependent, and the sound may or may not change depending on how you have it plugged. That's on the AQVOX site as well.

 

My EE pal and I are hopefully going to be able to get some test data this weekend. I want to quantify these things and I'm confident we can get some useful test data.

 

The products are different, I've tested the AQVOX unit, it's very clunky for the US Market requiring an additional transformer to step the voltage down. It's not a US ready product, IMO.

 

That being said, everyone is free to try all these products and compare. In my case, I couldn't hear a difference between the USB Disruptor and the AQVOX unit. And of course the price differential is pretty striking. All in it's $130 or so for the shipping and step down transformer. USB Disruptor is $49 and from USA.

 

AQVOX has the 120V version for sale: USB Stromversorgung, USB Netzteil - AQVOX Audio Devices

[robpriore]

Right, and it says below there "including 120V to 220V AC Converter" I think they got it backwards, should be 220v to 120V, but it needs a converter. No big deal, just more stuff to plug in.

[CR250]

The power supply for USB Disruptor has specialized EMI and RFI cores to eliminate noise. The AQVOX unit is also phase dependent, and the sound may or may not change depending on how you have it plugged. That's on the AQVOX site as well.

 

I don't see what's so good about the Disruptor power supply. I know that I have at least 2 of the exact same ones in the picture. One came with a cheap cell phone, and the other with a tablet.

[robpriore]

They may look similar but they are different on the inside. There are many levels of quality to power supplies, some are very inexpensive, and others like USB Disruptor are very expensive. It's two ends of a spectrum.

 

These devices all look similar, the housings are generic but the ratings are all different, also voltage outputs vary, as well as overall parts quality. You'll note some have ferrites while others do not. I've seen some of these for less than $1.

 

I've tested several types - with my ears - and I like the USB Disruptor supply the best, and it's also the most expensive one out there! It has important circuitry, it's been QA tested and has a QA certificate on the device itself, as well as being ROHS compliant, so no lead or other harmful substances. These are not cheapo supplies.

[Oystein]

I created the same kind of solution as AQVOX but in my own fashion.

 

Previously I had a full size HTPC, used the internal "dirty" 12V to clean it up by a LM317 voltage regulator set at 5V.

The small PCB is a standard Velleman kit.

Having the 5V out to a socket installed in a PCI bracket.

Made a cable spiltter with USB signal and Power on different leads.

 

It looks like this:

 

 

 

I also believe it is beneficial to cut the power already at the source side of the cable and not at the receiving end as AQVOX does.

Even if the power is not used a noisy power being present at the power conductors in the USB cable still can disturb the USB signal.

Due to capicitance in the cable there will be leakage currents due to the HF noise which will cause some radiaton.

So I prefer to have a clean power running parallel the signal leads in the USB cable :-)