Barriers to Computer Audio

[Jud]

We are audiophiles. We don't need no stinking evidence.

 

Anyway, at least let the poor guy get his feet wet before we start throwing accessory suggestions at him.

[kumakuma]

Anyway, at least let the poor guy get his feet wet before we start throwing accessory suggestions at him.

 

He's already been pushed into the deep end of the pool. Let's see if he can tread water.

[rajmando1]

Any suggestion to which signal is the best from a pc to a dac? And which kind of card is suggested? Some say spdif, some say aes-ebu, some say usb. I dont have the option to test all kinds of connections and cards, so if anyone can suggest a affordable solution to get the sound-data from my win7 pc to my dac(still havent been bought but looking into several 1500$ dacs atm) i would appreciate it. I know there is not 1 single perfect solution, but USB as I read it in this and other threads, is the worst option, and spdif the best? And does it matter how I output the signal, does it matter which kind of soundcard or other dedicated card I buy? Dont have the optical out on my MB unfortunately.

[Audio_ELF]

Any suggestion to which signal is the best from a pc to a dac? And which kind of card is suggested? Some say spdif, some say aes-ebu, some say usb. I dont have the option to test all kinds of connections and cards, so if anyone can suggest a affordable solution to get the sound-data from my win7 pc to my dac(still havent been bought but looking into several 1500$ dacs atm) i would appreciate it. I know there is not 1 single perfect solution, but USB as I read it in this and other threads, is the worst option, and spdif the best? And does it matter how I output the signal, does it matter which kind of soundcard or other dedicated card I buy? Dont have the optical out on my MB unfortunately.

There is no "best" it depends on the DAC and the computer setup. As a theoretical USB will be the best, but there are so many factors in the design that sometimes additional isolation added by SPDIF / AES can mean that works better. In the same way theoretically Co-ax is better route for SPDIF but TOSLink can give superior results due (again) to better isolation.

 

If you are using TOSLink or AES/SPDIF then yes the sound card matters. If you are using USB then no it doesn't as the USB interface is (for want of a better term) a sound card itself. If using SPDIF then you have to choose between a card (such as Lynx or RME) or using a USB interface.

 

As a starting point personally I would look at getting a DAC with USB input and using that. It may not be the absolute best method but is pretty easy starting and you can work from there. If you have a desktop type Windows 7 PC, then it could be worth adding a dedicated USB card - various options exist from just adding a Belkin or similar (or no-name) USB 2.0 PCIe card to "audiophile" USB cards from brands such as SotM or PPA. With USB you can also consider adding a "filter" (sorry thats not necessarily the right term) such as the Regen, iFi iUSB3.0 and Audioquest Jitterbug which many feel offers an improvement depending on the DAC.

 

It all depends what you are looking for ... the simple answer is USB. Any other method is very open ended and requires much more experimentation (IMO). While there is a lot of talk about how USB needs tweaks, etc. probably 90%+ people who read here are likely happy with a simple laptop or off the shelf (but quiet) desktop connected with a basic USB cable to a DAC.

 

PS. To hopefully ward off anyone who comes along and says I'm ignoring people's listening tests with the Regen and other devices, I'm not saying there isn't an improvement with them; I'm saying that they are not necessary for people starting out and adding them in just potentially adds to confusion, etc.

[Jud]

Any suggestion to which signal is the best from a pc to a dac? And which kind of card is suggested? Some say spdif, some say aes-ebu, some say usb. I dont have the option to test all kinds of connections and cards, so if anyone can suggest a affordable solution to get the sound-data from my win7 pc to my dac(still havent been bought but looking into several 1500$ dacs atm) i would appreciate it. I know there is not 1 single perfect solution, but USB as I read it in this and other threads, is the worst option, and spdif the best? And does it matter how I output the signal, does it matter which kind of soundcard or other dedicated card I buy? Dont have the optical out on my MB unfortunately.

 

No. Individual implementation in a system trumps generalized notions of which interface is best every time. In my system, with a coax SPDIF cable more than twice the price of my USB cable, the USB input easily sounds better than SPDIF.

 

Different interfaces each have different advantages and disadvantages. For example - async input USB probably has lowest jitter, all else being equal. AES-EBU and optical probably have better noise rejection, again all else being equal (though you have to watch out for the noise generated by opto-electronics on the DAC end). USB has greater bandwidth, followed by AES-EBU and SPDIF, with Toslink last (which may have practical impact if you want to listen to files at 192KHz sample rates and above).

 

So decide what DAC to buy, get a soundcard that outputs optical if your DAC has such an input, try out each available input to your DAC and see what sounds best to you, in your system.

 

As far as soundcards, ASUS makes some nice ones at non-astonishing price points. The ESI Juli@ has had a fine reputation for a long time, and I owned one and liked it (sold it only because the FreeBSD operating system I occasionally run didn't have drivers for it at the time), but I don't recall whether it has optical output if you decide you definitely want that.

[rajmando1]

I hear you Jud. But since i cant test different hardware and connections and cards myself(too pricey and timeconsuming), I rely on what I read here and in other threads on the net.

It seems to me that USB is to be avoided. So thats what I will be doing. Well I will get a DAC and try to test myself different connections to see which performs best. I know nothing beats that. And im no expert, so my money is on a non-usb connection. This is a excellent thread, and I hope that more big tests will be done to see which kind of soundchain from music-file to speakers is the best and best value for money.

[Ajax]

What format are the rips? There may be no need to do the work of re-ripping.

 

Hi Fastdart,

 

I agree with Jud - if you have ripped to lossless, using either ALAC or AIFF with "error correction" checked, then you will not need to re rip. Despite the put down iTunes receives here it is actually a very good program to begin your computer audio adventure.

 

FYI iTunes will rip "bit perfect" but will not play "bit perfect" in a windows environment (it will on a MAC) without some messing about. Refer to comments below from one of the truly innovative and savvy hardware developers, Devialet:

 

https://help.devialet.com/hc/en-us/articles/203402571-What-software-should-I-use-to-rip-CDs

 

"We don't recommend any particular software to rip CDs.

 

iTunes gives excellent results as long as you rip from a clean CD. Note that you can also set the error correction on iTunes for an extra safety. Other softwares such as "Max" on Mac platforms or "Exact Audio Copy" on PC platforms give excellent results.

 

The main thing is to use a bit-exact ripper. I personally use iTunes. There has been a test of several ripping softwares on a French Expert site. It appeared that, as long as the CD is clean, the results are absolutely identical between iTunes and others such as Audiograbber, dBpoweramp, Foobar2000, Winamp etc..."

 

 

The reason why others here prefer ripping with products such as Exact Audio copy and dBpoweramp is because you can check whether or not you have an exact rip, with iTunes you can't, however, I've ripped with it for over 10 years without an issue. I playback on a MAC with Audirvana software using iTunes as the database so I can play hi res and also not have to worry about changing sample rates etc.

 

One thing you can be sure of is that you will get a lot of people telling you which is the "best" way to set up your system but in reality there are numerous ways. I believe you have a windows environment so in your shoes I would keep it as simple and as inexpensive as possible to begin with while you learn more about the art of digital playback.

 

IMO the most important thing is to ensure your front end is set up properly and produces a bit perfect data stream (garbage in garbage out). For $70 a program such as JRiver will help you do that. Next purchase a sub $200 DAC such as Audioquest's dragonfly v1.2 (mentioned previously) or Meridians Explorer 2 or an iFi Nano (or your Oppo). These all sound very good and they plug directly into your USB port .... connect them via a 3.5mm to RCA cord into the CD or Tuner input on your existing pre-amp and your up and running for less than $300. You can google all these DACS easily or simply search this site. Your music can just sit on your internal hard drive for now.

 

It really is not that hard to get started. You can worry about refining the sound later but at least you are listening to music while your learning and researching your next upgrade and you will not feel pressured to buy the latest thinggy.

 

Have fun and all the best,

 

AJAX

[davidbeinct]

Hi Fastdart,

...

Deletia...

 

It really is not that hard to get started. You can worry about refining the sound later but at least you are listening to music while your learning and researching your next upgrade and you will not feel pressured to buy the latest thinggy.

 

Have fun and all the best,

 

AJAX

 

Post of the thread, and third the recommendation not to worry about re-ripping everything. I've been using iTunes since I started this adventure and it's a great program.

 

I will put in a plug for Roon. I had some difficulties getting it going since I had a weird combo of file types but since you're starting from scratch it should go much smoother for you. Read up on Roon on the main site here or in the Software sub-forum, but it's an incredibly powerful library management system/music player. I really lets the power of using the computer for music come through.

[rodaguilera]

I've had a lot of problems when ripping with iTunes. Even with clean cds you never know what can happen. With me o lot of clicks and pops on tracks with errors even with error correction checked. That was when i decided to use exclusively dbpoweramp to rip my cds do aiff. And when i have a track that dbpoweramp is not able to recover i buy only that track on Presto Classical or Qobuz and them adjust the metadata to fit the rest of the album and complete it. But it's just my opinion and experience...

 

I do use iTunes for organizing and metadata for which it's great for me.

 

Hi Fastdart,

 

I agree with Jud - if you have ripped to lossless, using either ALAC or AIFF with "error correction" checked, then you will not need to re rip. Despite the put down iTunes receives here it is actually a very good program to begin your computer audio adventure.

 

FYI iTunes will rip "bit perfect" but will not play "bit perfect" in a windows environment (it will on a MAC) without some messing about. Refer to comments below from one of the truly innovative and savvy hardware developers, Devialet:

 

https://help.devialet.com/hc/en-us/articles/203402571-What-software-should-I-use-to-rip-CDs

 

"We don't recommend any particular software to rip CDs.

 

iTunes gives excellent results as long as you rip from a clean CD. Note that you can also set the error correction on iTunes for an extra safety. Other softwares such as "Max" on Mac platforms or "Exact Audio Copy" on PC platforms give excellent results.

 

The main thing is to use a bit-exact ripper. I personally use iTunes. There has been a test of several ripping softwares on a French Expert site. It appeared that, as long as the CD is clean, the results are absolutely identical between iTunes and others such as Audiograbber, dBpoweramp, Foobar2000, Winamp etc..."

 

 

The reason why others here prefer ripping with products such as Exact Audio copy and dBpoweramp is because you can check whether or not you have an exact rip, with iTunes you can't, however, I've ripped with it for over 10 years without an issue. I playback on a MAC with Audirvana software using iTunes as the database so I can play hi res and also not have to worry about changing sample rates etc.

 

One thing you can be sure of is that you will get a lot of people telling you which is the "best" way to set up your system but in reality there are numerous ways. I believe you have a windows environment so in your shoes I would keep it as simple and as inexpensive as possible to begin with while you learn more about the art of digital playback.

 

IMO the most important thing is to ensure your front end is set up properly and produces a bit perfect data stream (garbage in garbage out). For $70 a program such as JRiver will help you do that. Next purchase a sub $200 DAC such as Audioquest's dragonfly v1.2 (mentioned previously) or Meridians Explorer 2 or an iFi Nano (or your Oppo). These all sound very good and they plug directly into your USB port .... connect them via a 3.5mm to RCA cord into the CD or Tuner input on your existing pre-amp and your up and running for less than $300. You can google all these DACS easily or simply search this site. Your music can just sit on your internal hard drive for now.

 

It really is not that hard to get started. You can worry about refining the sound later but at least you are listening to music while your learning and researching your next upgrade and you will not feel pressured to buy the latest thinggy.

 

Have fun and all the best,

 

AJAX

[Doak]

Buy something from the Auralic Aries line, the DAC of your choice and be done with it. That's what I did after "computer wrestling" for years and I could not be more pleased. I'm listening to a lot more and varied music, enjoying better sound quality and can finally - for the most part- relax.

[plissken]

Any suggestion to which signal is the best from a pc to a dac? And which kind of card is suggested? Some say spdif, some say aes-ebu, some say usb. I dont have the option to test all kinds of connections and cards, so if anyone can suggest a affordable solution to get the sound-data from my win7 pc to my dac(still havent been bought but looking into several 1500$ dacs atm) i would appreciate it. I know there is not 1 single perfect solution, but USB as I read it in this and other threads, is the worst option, and spdif the best? And does it matter how I output the signal, does it matter which kind of soundcard or other dedicated card I buy? Dont have the optical out on my MB unfortunately.

 

Find the DAC with the features you want. Call the manufacturer and see what they suggest. This 'could' vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

 

Some how I think they are all going to say USB if using a computer.

 

BTW I don't think you need to spend that much. The TEAC UD 501 @ $849 will give just about anything in the $3K and under club a run for it's money.

 

Use the rest to get some room treatments. THAT will have a bigger factor on SQ than any $1700-$2000 DAC you could purchase.

[gstew]

No. Individual implementation in a system trumps generalized notions of which interface is best every time.

 

Good truism, Jud. This sounds so counter-intuitive, but is the reality of audio in general and computer audio specifically.

 

As far as soundcards, ASUS makes some nice ones at non-astonishing price points. The ESI Juli@ has had a fine reputation for a long time, and I owned one and liked it (sold it only because the FreeBSD operating system I occasionally run didn't have drivers for it at the time), but I don't recall whether it has optical output if you decide you definitely want that.

 

Yup, the ESI Juli@ DOES have a TOSLINK output. I suspect they aren't being made anymore as they have gone up in price a lot, but watch EBay and you can find them used for around $100-$120. I can't say anything about the quality of the Juli@ TOSLINK output, I generally used the I2S available when you disconnect the analog portion.

 

Greg in Mississippi

[sandyk]

It seems to me that USB is to be avoided. So thats what I will be doing. Well I will get a DAC and try to test myself different connections to see which performs best. I know nothing beats that. And im no expert, so my money is on a non-usb connection. This is a excellent thread, and I hope that more big tests will be done to see which kind of soundchain from music-file to speakers is the best and best value for money.

 

If you don't need DSD or multichannel, you could try the inexpensive Musiland PCI card which has only Digital Outputs.

Musiland Digital Times 24Bit / 192KHz PCI Sound Card SPDIF Toslink BNC - Newegg.com

A friend reports excellent results when using this card, even when compared with USB using a friend's Regen, but he doesn't want the added complexity of additional bits and pieces.

[Audio_ELF]

Yup, the ESI Juli@ DOES have a TOSLINK output. I suspect they aren't being made anymore as they have gone up in price a lot, but watch EBay and you can find them used for around $100-$120. I can't say anything about the quality of the Juli@ TOSLINK output, I generally used the I2S available when you disconnect the analog portion.

Both the ESI Juli@ and Juli@ XTE (PCIe version) are readily available from dealers in UK / Europe.

 

ESI Juli@ 24bit 192kHz Stereo Audio/MIDI Interface | DV247 -- £100

ESI Juli@ XTe PCIe Audio Interface | DV247 -- £130

 

I think the increase in cost is more down to it no longer being as popular as most "budget" audio engineers are likely moving to USB interfaces and laptops as being easier to manage than full desktop / tower machines with PCI type slots.

 

Stepping up from the ESI cards would lead you to RME and Lynx cards.

If you don't need DSD or multichannel, you could try the inexpensive Musiland PCI card which has only Digital Outputs.

Musiland Digital Times 24Bit / 192KHz PCI Sound Card SPDIF Toslink BNC - Newegg.com

Alex ... you don't happen to know if this is compatible with Linux do you?

[sandyk]

Alex ... you don't happen to know if this is compatible with Linux do you?

Eloise

Unfortunately, a quick search suggests that it isn't compatible with Linux.

Alex

[gstew]

The SB Touch with the EDO plugin can do 192 over USB, it works very reliably, and sounds great. With my DAC the USB interface is actually better than optical or coax S/PDIF.

 

John S.

 

Is the SBT you refer to stock beyond adding EDO? Or if not, can you share what you've done to it?

 

TIA!

 

Greg in Mississippi

[sandyk]

In case John doesn't notice your post.

John designed a special Linear PSU for the SBT that was posted in DIY Audio and elsewhere, I suspect that he would at least be using his improved PSU with it.

[JohnSwenson]

Is the SBT you refer to stock beyond adding EDO? Or if not, can you share what you've done to it?

 

TIA!

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

Hi Greg,

the SBTs I'm using do not have any hardware improvements, just EDO to use the USB output.

 

At one time I did a bunch of teaks to improve the analog outs, but they don't seem to affect the USB out at all.

 

Alex is correct, I AM using my linear designs to power the SBTs. The one in the listening room is powered by one of my first choke based designs, which is still working great. The one in the lab is powered by a prototype JS-2.

 

The linear supply does significantly improve the sound over the SMPS that comes with the SBT.

 

John S.

[gstew]

Hi Greg,

the SBTs I'm using do not have any hardware improvements, just EDO to use the USB output.

 

At one time I did a bunch of teaks to improve the analog outs, but they don't seem to affect the USB out at all.

 

Alex is correct, I AM using my linear designs to power the SBTs. The one in the listening room is powered by one of my first choke based designs, which is still working great. The one in the lab is powered by a prototype JS-2.

 

The linear supply does significantly improve the sound over the SMPS that comes with the SBT.

 

John S.

 

John & Alex,

 

Thanks for the replies. While I am a die-hard USB avoider, I'm beginning to soften with the availability of 'enhancers' such as the Regen. I was very happy to know that the SBT works as one of your better USB sources with the EDO installed. And even moreso that it does so stock. While I have no compunction about opening and molesting a piece of audio gear with modifications, what I have is a totally stock, almost unused SBT, so I'd like to keep it in the un-molested state as long as I can.

 

And seriously LOL, I had no expectation that you'd be running it with anything other than one of your linear supplies, John!

 

Again, many thanks!!!

 

Greg in Mississippi