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PlayClassics master file giveaway for CA members


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Thank you all for the feedback on this rock sample.

 

I have been talking to the musicians and they too feel this same way about the bass.

 

The point of the experiment is to find out how rock sounds when recorded on a documentary manner. The bass does sound the way it did live on the hall, but since I have no experience with how rock "should" sound I was not able to advice them on this respect while they were recording. Now that they have heard the recording for a few days they do wish it had sounded different.

 

If this was a fantasy recording we could just try to fix this on the mixing or mastering stage, but since we are all about documentary we can only try to fix this on the live performance itself.

 

I think we might have to re-record this sample in order to complete the experiment :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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Thank you all for the feedback on this rock sample.

 

I have been talking to the musicians and they too feel this same way about the bass.

 

The point of the experiment is to find out how rock sounds when recorded on a documentary manner. The bass does sound the way it did live on the hall, but since I have no experience with how rock "should" sound I was not able to advice them on this respect while they were recording. Now that they have heard the recording for a few days they do wish it had sounded different.

 

If this was a fantasy recording we could just try to fix this on the mixing or mastering stage, but since we are all about documentary we can only try to fix this on the live performance itself.

 

I think we might have to re-record this sample in order to complete the experiment :)

 

 

We have re-recorded the bass so we can now continue with the experiment.

 

The bass has been recorded on the same position, the only thing that is different is the fact that this time the bass player did use the eq settings on the bass amp to "try" to get the bass to produce the sound he wanted.

 

I am saying "try" because he admitted to me that this was the first time he was using this settings. I did not understand why so he explained to me that whenever they play (they never record they only do live gigs) there is always a sound tech with a mixing table that fixes everything for them so he did not have to worry about it.

 

I will send this new version to all of you who have already downloaded the old one. (If I miss someone, please tell me so) To those of you who are new to this sample I will send you both so you can see how the experiment proceeds.

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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I have been working on these experimental samples (Drums and Rock) and I have realized that there is something I overlooked.

 

The only thing that is different about these samples is the fact that the instruments themselves are much louder than the ones we usually record. The fact that they are so loud is what made us lower the gain on our setup by 24dB in the first place. All other things being equal that should have been enough to make this sample sound as good as everything else. But that did not happen, so what happened then?

 

Our hall is calibrated to work with classical music instruments playing at chamber music volume levels. We measured its response to calibrate it so that we could control the sound that the hall would deliver onto the microphone setup. But those measurements were always done at the volume levels used in chamber music.

 

These rock instruments are 24dB louder. At this volume levels, the hall is not behaving the same way. We had never measured the response of the hall for these volume levels, but now that we are doing this experiment we did measure it and we found out that the response is different enough to throw things off.

 

We have developed a filter that compensates for this deviation. I have applied it to both the drums and the rock samples and it seems to work just fine. I am very interested that you do hear these samples with the filter, if it works we should be able to make truthful rock recordings too :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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We are not doing anything different from what we have done before.

 

The "secret" to our sound is not on the fact that we only use two mics. The "secret" to our sound is on the way we treat our hall. That is what our Truthful Recording Technology is all about.

 

What we are doing here is just part of our regular procedure. We measure and we identify a problem that affects the recorded sound of the instruments, then we work on the hall until we fix that particular problem. Then measure again and something else comes up, so we fix it again, and again and again. We have been doing this for the past 7 years.

 

The goal of all this measuring and fixing is this (from our explanation of the Truthful Recording Technology at www.musicstry.com ):

"In our studios the recording hall is configured so that the sound of the hall is exactly the same as the sound of the take"

 

This time we are just doing one more measurement because this is the first time we are recording some this loud. At this levels the hall and the recorded sound were not matching perfectly. What you were hearing on the previous samples was not true to the sound of the live instrument because the calibration of the hall was not working at those levels. What this filter does is fix that deviation to make it truthful again.

 

Our normal procedure at this point would be to try to fix this on the hall, so we could then take away the filter to get the same recorded result. We are not going to take that step in this case because we do not want to put at risk the calibration that we do have now and that works perfectly for acoustic instruments.

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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I did not follow what exactly “after measurement” means and what Mario has done to the track.

 

The point of this experiment is to try to find out how other genres sound when recorded with the Truthful Recording Technology.

 

This technology requires that we calibrate the recording setup (stage, hall and mics) and the recording chain (from microphones to master) to deliver a flat frequency response. This calibration is what makes the sound on the recording true to the sound of the instruments.

 

Our calibration provides a flat frequency response at chamber music volume levels. These rock instruments are 24dB louder. At those levels this calibration does not deliver a flat frequency response any more. We need to use this "after measurement" filter to keep it flat. So this "after measurement" version is the truthful one.

 

Now that we have a truthful drums and rock sample we can proceed with the experiment :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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I wonder if people listening to this music are playing at high enough volume. Remember you need to crank it up by 24 dB. If your system can do it cleanly this recording rightly sizzles with lifelike energy. Turn it up only half this much and it is lackluster.

 

Yes, you do need a huge amount of power to make it sound right. These recordings do not have any dynamic range compression but, more importantly, they do not have any low cut filters either and they do have an insane amount of energy under 100Hz.

 

I am going to try to make a normalized version just like I did with the classical music. All we did for the normalized version of the classical music was apply a little bit of dynamic range compression, enough to rise the level of the recording by 7 or 8 dB. I will do the same for this drums and rock samples, but this time I think I should also apply a low cut filter somewhere around 80 to 100Hz.

 

I will post as soon as I have something :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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Yes, you do need a huge amount of power to make it sound right. These recordings do not have any dynamic range compression but, more importantly, they do not have any low cut filters either and they do have an insane amount of energy under 100Hz.

 

I am going to try to make a normalized version just like I did with the classical music. All we did for the normalized version of the classical music was apply a little bit of dynamic range compression, enough to rise the level of the recording by 7 or 8 dB. I will do the same for this drums and rock samples, but this time I think I should also apply a low cut filter somewhere around 80 to 100Hz.

 

I will post as soon as I have something :)

 

 

I just uploaded a normalized version of the drums and rock samples.

 

I did apply that low cut filter I was talking about and it does make all the difference. I also applied a limiter and brought the volume 8dB up. I think this time we might be on to something :)

 

Who wants to try?

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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"normalised" drum track 3

For my personal taste, the cymbals and drums are now balanced, with the gain of the former being raised relatively much higher now. At the present level, more details are being heard and I would say this track is a real test for an audio system's high, mid and low frequency capability. The drum set sounds so real to me!! I think this track is especially useful for assessing the transient response of an audio system--the rise and decay. Also imaging of the drum set is of proper size. I think many of the high end systems I have come across won't be able to pass both of these counts.

BTW, the overall gain is higher; for the "after measurement" version, I set the level to -7 and for this new one, I need to reduce it to -9.

This track displaced the Sheffield Lab drum record track which is now to be reserved for comparing with its direct to disc uncle only.

Listening to the different versions, I have learned from Mario how a recording could sound so differently by applying different adjustments.

If Mario gives the flamenco track the same "normalisation", I think it may become another gem.

 

The volume of the "normalized" file is 8dB louder than the volume of the "after measurement" file. You said you were playing the "after measurement" file at -7dB. You would need to play the "normalized" file at -15dB to be able to compare them at the same level. Instead you are playing the "normalized" file at -9dB so you are raising the volume relative to the "after measurement" file by 6dB. That is why you are hearing more of it. If you could play the "after measurement" version at -1dB you would hear just as much. So the key thing here is how powerful your system is. If your system was powerful enough to play the "after measurement" file at realistic volume levels then you would have no need for the "normalized" version.

 

This is from post number #41 at the begining of this thread:

 

The Truthful Masters do not have any dynamic range compression. They do have a little less volume but they have the full dynamic range of the performance and the pure sound of the take.

 

We also offer Normalized MP3 files. These MP3 files do sound as loud as you would expect but they do have a little bit of dynamic range compression.

 

We offer both files for this particular reason.

 

The Truthful Masters are best for critical listening on audiophile systems. You may have to bring up the level 7dB or 8dB more than usual but you will get the sound as pure as it gets.

 

The MP3 files are a trade off, you can enjoy them on small systems or louder environments but they do have the drawbacks of dynamic range compression.

 

As an example of this, if I am not mistaken, Sal is listening on headphones. He should be able to raise the volume on the "after measurement" file as loud as he wants. So when he plays the "normalized" file he does not get any benefit from the extra gain on it but he does get all the drawbacks of the dynamic range compression. That is why he prefers the "after measurement" file:

 

Listened thru the normalized and earlier filtered Rock files a number of times tonight trying to pick up on the differences. It's hard for me to put into words but I prefer the sound of the filtered files over the normalized myself. The normalized just seem to have lost some "edge or detail" to me. It may be the better dynamics of the earlier files that catches my ear, I don't know. There also seems to be slightly better detail in the bass guitar, again they just seem to have lost a bit of the detail in the string attack.

JMHO

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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So far we have an "after measurement" file with the full dynamic range of the performance and a "normalized" file with a low cut filter and a little bit of dynamic range compression. I think we can safely use the "normalized" file as our "Normalized Master", but I think the "after measurement" file can still be improved to become a better "Truthful Master".

 

We never use low cut filters on our classical music recordings. The response of our hall is supposed to be flat to the bottom of the spectrum and our mics are placed far enough from the instruments not to be affected by the proximity effect. The problem with this rock instruments is (again) how loud they are. Even though our mics are placed away from the instruments with levels this loud we could be suffering from this proximity effect.

 

The purpose of applying the low cut filters to the "normalized" file was to help reduce the dynamic range. The amount of energy under 100Hz was so huge that after applying the low cut filter by itself (without any dynamic range compression) I had already obtained 2dB of headroom on the file. That alone makes me think that we are in fact suffering from this proximity effect so applying this low cut filter to the "after measurement" file would actually bring us closer to the true sound of the instruments. If this is so, then we would have a better "Truthful Master" plus we would be able to raise the volume by 2dB without the use of any dynamic range compression.

 

I will apply these low cut filters to the "after measurement" and post as soon as I have them :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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Thank you Mario for explaining the gain difference in regard to the drum track.

I just wonder whether the gain reading of my gear has correct calibration or not.

The reading that I have merely comes from the Digital to Digital Converter that is based on xCore USB Audio 2.0 with a XMOS internal clock. The gain setting shows up in MIDI, one for left channel and one for right. This is where and how I set them.

The Iberia, flamenco, and soprano tracks, I play them at -20. But drum track versions at -7 whilst the "normalised" one at -9.

I am unable to try the "after measurement" track at -1 because at this level, I am afraid the ribbon tweeters may be damaged and also the amps for the quasi ribbon midrange drivers that go down to low ohms. Some tweeters broke already and 10 stereo amps have been wiped out.

The listening level that I usually set is quite loud as compared to many other audiophiles. And at demo sessions, some said the sound was too loud but to me that was only slightly loud. For example, the Goldmund Apologue speakers when a track was played at full output, I only considered it slightly loud whilst many others complained.

 

 

Hi Francis,

 

you can always try to play the normalized version at -15 and compare it to the after measurement at -7. It the cymbals have the same level then MIDI should be talking dB.

 

If you do this and you still like the balance better on the normalized version that would be good news. My guess then would be you liked the normalized version better because of the low cut filter not because of the limiter. That low cut filter may be the cause for you perceiving a better balance between cymbals and drums thus making it sound more natural to you.

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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So far we have an "after measurement" file with the full dynamic range of the performance and a "normalized" file with a low cut filter and a little bit of dynamic range compression. I think we can safely use the "normalized" file as our "Normalized Master", but I think the "after measurement" file can still be improved to become a better "Truthful Master".

 

We never use low cut filters on our classical music recordings. The response of our hall is supposed to be flat to the bottom of the spectrum and our mics are placed far enough from the instruments not to be affected by the proximity effect. The problem with this rock instruments is (again) how loud they are. Even though our mics are placed away from the instruments with levels this loud we could be suffering from this proximity effect.

 

The purpose of applying the low cut filters to the "normalized" file was to help reduce the dynamic range. The amount of energy under 100Hz was so huge that after applying the low cut filter by itself (without any dynamic range compression) I had already obtained 2dB of headroom on the file. That alone makes me think that we are in fact suffering from this proximity effect so applying this low cut filter to the "after measurement" file would actually bring us closer to the true sound of the instruments. If this is so, then we would have a better "Truthful Master" plus we would be able to raise the volume by 2dB without the use of any dynamic range compression.

 

I will apply these low cut filters to the "after measurement" and post as soon as I have them

 

 

First thing I did was run some tests to try to figure out what the source of the problem was. I measured the hall again this time focusing on the response under 100Hz. The problem is the same as before. The drums and bass have so much power under 100Hz that they are overriding the acoustic structures built on the hall to control room modes at those frequencies.

 

Instead of applying a low cut, I have used the results of this 2nd measurement to develop a filter that would correct this deviation. I have applied this new filter to the "after measurement" version of the Drums and Rock samples. This new "2nd measurement" version is 3dB louder than the "after measurement" version without the use of any dynamic range compression. If it does work we would have our first Rock "Truthful Masters".

 

Who wants to try?

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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Hi Ricardo, thanks for listening. I just sent it to you.

 

Unless you guys find something that I have not jet seen, I think we may have solved all the problems these instruments caused on our hall. If everything is correct, the sound of these samples should now be consistent with the sound of our classical recordings. I am excited to see how this one works :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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Drum track 3 “second measurement” (sm) versus “normalised” (nor)

For the sm I set the gain at -5 whilst the nor at -9 as before. At this level, the cymbals still sound softer and have less splash than in the nor but the kick drum is already much louder and more forward. For my taste -5 is about right and higher gain will become overbearing.

Although the opening snare sounds louder and has more impact in the nor, the drumhead and rim shots are spread wider. So the sm has more correct image size on this count.

Hanging and side toms are distinguishable with similar easiness in both versions.

From 3.4 minutes, the high hat, the occasional hit on the centre cymbal and rim shots have their images located close to the drummer. This would be a useful tool for evaluating the dispersion performance of high frequencies of speaker systems. I expect many will have these reproduced widely spread from each other and not focussed in the centre as in the sm. The worst one may even have the cymbal stuck to the speaker cabinet, rim shots in the centre of the stage and the high hat at the far corner.

I have put the sm in the playlist, replacing the nor.

 

 

Thank you Francis, I am glad you liked this "2nd measurement" version best.

 

The problem with these Drums and Rock samples is how loud the instruments are. At such high levels the response of our hall is not flat anymore. The sound on the first versions was being affected by this deviation. The filters used on this last version are able to correct this deviation. Now that the problem is solved we can use this "2nd measurement" version as our "Truthful Master" with the full dynamic range of the performance. :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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Hi Mario,

 

I've just given the tracks a good listen and I'm content with the sound quality you've been able to achieve with these 2nd measurement versions of both Rock and Drums recordings.

I must confess that I didn't expect you'd be able to pull it off with the rock recording.

 

The sound is naturally balanced tonal wise, the dynamics are credible and you seem to have cured the excessive low frequency "bloom"; the rock recording sounds less "perfect" and perhaps a bit "wetter" than a studio version but I like the "rawness" which brings it closer to the sound of a live performance that you'd listen in a club.

It's a pity that the rock band didn't have a singer...

 

Have you played these latest versions to the performers?

What was their opinion?

 

Cheers,

Ricardo

 

 

This experiment has been a lot of fun. I hope those of you who have followed it have had fun too. You never know where you are going to end up when you deal with sound :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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Now that we have finished the experiment I would like to include these "Truthful Masters" of the Drums and Rock samples into out giveaway offer. This is how we are doing so far:

 

We have given out 142 albums: 73 for Albéniz Iberia, 29 for Cabrera plays Debussy, 20 for Debussy Préludes, 12 for Chopin Polish Songs and 8 for Songs of Paolo Tosti. In addition to the albums we have also given out 64 flamenco samples, 7 drums samples and 7 rock samples.

 

If you do not have an album yet please go ahead and ask for one I will be happy to send it to you :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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  • 6 months later...

We started this thread because we wanted CA members to try the sound of the Truthful Recording Technology on their systems. What we shared with you back then was the most transparent sound we had so far (that was calibration version 1.0). That truly was a great experience. It was a lot of fun being able to share all that with you.

 

Up to that point we had only used our setup with classical music instruments, but thanks to this thread we started trying new things out. One of the things we tried was a drums set and a rock band. The recorded sound of those instruments was not as transparent as we would have expected. That made us realize there was still some room for improvement on our calibration. We tried to do some fixes over calibration v1.0 but that approach did not seem to work. (Here is the thread where we published those results: PlayClassics Truthful Recording Technology v1.1)

 

We then knew we would have to re-calibrate from scratch:

 

I would like to try something new.

 

I think fixing this minor problems by applying little patches over calibration v1.0 is not going to work.

 

In order to get good results we might have to re-calibrate from scratch. Do not worry, we are not going to change the sound. We are always aiming at transparency, so even if we do the calibration 100 times we will always end up at almost the same identical place. But this time, I am aware of this little problems, so I will try to deal with them from the beginning.

 

I might take me a few days, but I will report back as soon as I have something that I am convince of

 

It has been 5 months since then, but I think it was all worth it. We have a new calibration v2.0 that we would like to share with you. Here is the link to the new thread in case you want to try :)

 

PlayClassics TRT v2.0 master file giveaway for CA members

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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  • 1 year later...

Hello everyone!

 

I have got something new I would like to share with you.

 

Lots of things have happened since the last time we talked. It was on fall of 2016 that we decided that we would upgrade our piano. Upgrading the piano made us aware of some issues we thought we could resolve. It has been 18 months but we have finally come with a new version of our sound (TRT v3.0).

 

I have posted a new topic for this purpose called PlayClassics TRT v3.0 sneak preview

 

I would really appreciate it if you would be willing to test this new sound on your systems see how it turns out :)

Mario Martínez

Recording Engineer and Music Producer

Play Classics, classical music at its best

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