PlayClassics master file giveaway for CA members

[AudioBear]

Somewhat late in replying, a busy Christmas, so apologies.

 

I downloaded the Chopin Polish Songs, not something I was very familiar with previously, hence my choice. And what a pleasant surprise it has been, some fine singing by Iwona Sobotka with Ángel Cabrera on the piano. The recording has a very pleasant natural feel to it, with good sound and dynamics. Now although some have said it is too quiet, I think it is just fine, the levels allow proper dynamic range and there is always the volume control on your HiFi.

 

Thanks to Mario Martinez & all those at PlayClassics for allowing us to experience their recordings, it has been a pleasure and I will certainly be buying more.

[semente]

I have tried the re-recorded Rock track and it sounds better.

Then I added a little compression and EQ'ed some warmth out of both electric bass and electric guitar and it's sounding a lot more like a rock recording...

 

R

[Mario Martinez]

I have been working on these experimental samples (Drums and Rock) and I have realized that there is something I overlooked.

 

The only thing that is different about these samples is the fact that the instruments themselves are much louder than the ones we usually record. The fact that they are so loud is what made us lower the gain on our setup by 24dB in the first place. All other things being equal that should have been enough to make this sample sound as good as everything else. But that did not happen, so what happened then?

 

Our hall is calibrated to work with classical music instruments playing at chamber music volume levels. We measured its response to calibrate it so that we could control the sound that the hall would deliver onto the microphone setup. But those measurements were always done at the volume levels used in chamber music.

 

These rock instruments are 24dB louder. At this volume levels, the hall is not behaving the same way. We had never measured the response of the hall for these volume levels, but now that we are doing this experiment we did measure it and we found out that the response is different enough to throw things off.

 

We have developed a filter that compensates for this deviation. I have applied it to both the drums and the rock samples and it seems to work just fine. I am very interested that you do hear these samples with the filter, if it works we should be able to make truthful rock recordings too

[Jud]

I have been working on these experimental samples (Drums and Rock) and I have realized that there is something I overlooked.

 

The only thing that is different about these samples is the fact that the instruments themselves are much louder than the ones we usually record. The fact that they are so loud is what made us lower the gain on our setup by 24dB in the first place. All other things being equal that should have been enough to make this sample sound as good as everything else. But that did not happen, so what happened then?

 

Our hall is calibrated to work with classical music instruments playing at chamber music volume levels. We measured its response to calibrate it so that we could control the sound that the hall would deliver onto the microphone setup. But those measurements were always done at the volume levels used in chamber music.

 

These rock instruments are 24dB louder. At this volume levels, the hall is not behaving the same way. We had never measured the response of the hall for these volume levels, but now that we are doing this experiment we did measure it and we found out that the response is different enough to throw things off.

 

We have developed a filter that compensates for this deviation. I have applied it to both the drums and the rock samples and it seems to work just fine. I am very interested that you do hear these samples with the filter, if it works we should be able to make truthful rock recordings too

 

Since I'm a little suspicious of filters, I will be a very good candidate to listen to the piece with and without the filter, realizing that without the filter you have the problem that the room is being overdriven. It seems we will be having bad weather tomorrow, so it should be a perfect day for staying in and listening to some music (after my ears stop ringing from running the snow blower ).

[firedog]

I'd be happy to download the "filtered" version if it's available.

[Mario Martinez]

Yes, of course, I just sent them to you.

 

Thanks for taking the time to listen

[esldude]

I have been working on these experimental samples (Drums and Rock) and I have realized that there is something I overlooked.

 

The only thing that is different about these samples is the fact that the instruments themselves are much louder than the ones we usually record. The fact that they are so loud is what made us lower the gain on our setup by 24dB in the first place. All other things being equal that should have been enough to make this sample sound as good as everything else. But that did not happen, so what happened then?

 

Our hall is calibrated to work with classical music instruments playing at chamber music volume levels. We measured its response to calibrate it so that we could control the sound that the hall would deliver onto the microphone setup. But those measurements were always done at the volume levels used in chamber music.

 

These rock instruments are 24dB louder. At this volume levels, the hall is not behaving the same way. We had never measured the response of the hall for these volume levels, but now that we are doing this experiment we did measure it and we found out that the response is different enough to throw things off.

 

We have developed a filter that compensates for this deviation. I have applied it to both the drums and the rock samples and it seems to work just fine. I am very interested that you do hear these samples with the filter, if it works we should be able to make truthful rock recordings too

 

I would be interested in hearing the filtered sample as well Mario.

 

By filtering are you simply doing some gentle EQ?

 

I have not yet posted my opinion of the second rock recording, but I agree with semente that some compression makes this have the solid punchy sound you expect of rock recordings. It has that sound and still portrays the benefits of your method of recording.

 

Of course all of this is the slippery slope of modern recording. A little EQ here, a touch of compression there. Pretty soon you end up needing the standard minimum of 8 mics for just the drums.

[semente]

I would be interested in hearing the filtered sample as well Mario.

 

By filtering are you simply doing some gentle EQ?

 

I have not yet posted my opinion of the second rock recording, but I agree with semente that some compression makes this have the solid punchy sound you expect of rock recordings. It has that sound and still portrays the benefits of your method of recording.

 

Of course all of this is the slippery slope of modern recording. A little EQ here, a touch of compression there. Pretty soon you end up needing the standard minimum of 8 mics for just the drums.

 

I don't see it so much as a slippery slope but more like an inevitability.

 

Drums are loud, very loud, and it's had to match vocals or acoustics instruments like a guitar or a piano with the high SPL produced by drums.

The Cowboy Junkies were forced to amplify the vocalist in the famous "Trinity Sessions" that were recorded live with a single Calrec mic because of this imbalance.

And whilst one can control the output level of electric instruments like guitars and basses one, we have been listening to rock band music for many years and are used to "that" certain sound with typical tonal and level balance.

 

I find Mario's efforts commendable but have serious doubts that on can get good results from recording amplified music in a documental fashion an a single pair of mics, even if we were to adjust the acoustics of the hall in order to EQs the sound to something more akin to what we are used to listening in a rock recording.

 

R

[mansr]

I'd be happy to download the "filtered" version if it's available.

 

As would I. I'd also like to hear Mario's take on a jazz trio or such.

[Sal1950]

I would be interested in hearing the filtered sample as well Mario.

 

By filtering are you simply doing some gentle EQ?

 

I have not yet posted my opinion of the second rock recording, but I agree with semente that some compression makes this have the solid punchy sound you expect of rock recordings. It has that sound and still portrays the benefits of your method of recording.

 

Of course all of this is the slippery slope of modern recording. A little EQ here, a touch of compression there. Pretty soon you end up needing the standard minimum of 8 mics for just the drums.

 

I don't see it so much as a slippery slope but more like an inevitability.

 

Drums are loud, very loud, and it's had to match vocals or acoustics instruments like a guitar or a piano with the high SPL produced by drums.

The Cowboy Junkies were forced to amplify the vocalist in the famous "Trinity Sessions" that were recorded live with a single Calrec mic because of this imbalance.

And whilst one can control the output level of electric instruments like guitars and basses one, we have been listening to rock band music for many years and are used to "that" certain sound with typical tonal and level balance.

 

I find Mario's efforts commendable but have serious doubts that on can get good results from recording amplified music in a documental fashion an a single pair of mics, even if we were to adjust the acoustics of the hall in order to EQs the sound to something more akin to what we are used to listening in a rock recording.

 

R

 

Let's not slide down that slope, just give it up if it's not a reasonable goal. Just for grins I just ran a tmeter on my needle drop of my original Sheffield Track Record LP

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed: The Sheffield Track Record / Artist: Various

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Title [codec]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR17 -0.00 dB -19.28 dB 8:26 01 - Side 1 [flac]

DR16 -0.79 dB -21.27 dB 7:53 02 - Side 2 [flac]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 2

Official DR value: DR17

 

Sampling rate: 44100 Hz

Average bitrate: 733kbs

Bits per sample: 16 bit

 

Dr14 T.meter 1.0.16

==============================================================================================

[esldude]

I don't see it so much as a slippery slope but more like an inevitability.

 

Drums are loud, very loud, and it's had to match vocals or acoustics instruments like a guitar or a piano with the high SPL produced by drums.

The Cowboy Junkies were forced to amplify the vocalist in the famous "Trinity Sessions" that were recorded live with a single Calrec mic because of this imbalance.

And whilst one can control the output level of electric instruments like guitars and basses one, we have been listening to rock band music for many years and are used to "that" certain sound with typical tonal and level balance.

 

I find Mario's efforts commendable but have serious doubts that on can get good results from recording amplified music in a documental fashion an a single pair of mics, even if we were to adjust the acoustics of the hall in order to EQs the sound to something more akin to what we are used to listening in a rock recording.

 

R

 

Well if you start with a philosophical approach of one mic per channel or only using pairs for stereo, and a wish to provide the cleanest, most direct, most un-processed sound possible, once you start doing other things it does become a philosophical slippery slope. Since I started recording exactly with that idea I do understand how it plays out at least a little bit.

 

Mentioning the Trinity Sessions, I attributed the ability to get all that and the vocalist to the abilities of the Calrec mike. It was quite a shocker to hear instead Margo Timmins was singing through a PA!!

 

What I think can be done even with rock is to get something that is much like the sound live. That people have been conditioned to think of Rock sound as what comes out of the studio doesn't change that. It simply points to the desire sometimes for recordings to be more real than real. So my opinion that a little tasteful compression (and maybe gentle contouring via EQ) might get the sound close enough more people would accept and enjoy the result while still showing benefits of a minimalist approach. Whether Mario wishes to go that route is his choice of course. No definitive right or wrong in it.

[esldude]

I don't see it so much as a slippery slope but more like an inevitability.

 

Drums are loud, very loud, and it's had to match vocals or acoustics instruments like a guitar or a piano with the high SPL produced by drums.

The Cowboy Junkies were forced to amplify the vocalist in the famous "Trinity Sessions" that were recorded live with a single Calrec mic because of this imbalance.

And whilst one can control the output level of electric instruments like guitars and basses one, we have been listening to rock band music for many years and are used to "that" certain sound with typical tonal and level balance.

 

I find Mario's efforts commendable but have serious doubts that on can get good results from recording amplified music in a documental fashion an a single pair of mics, even if we were to adjust the acoustics of the hall in order to EQs the sound to something more akin to what we are used to listening in a rock recording.

 

R

 

Well if you start with a philosophical approach of one mic per channel or only using pairs for stereo, and a wish to provide the cleanest, most direct, most un-processed sound possible, once you start doing other things it does become a philosophical slippery slope. Since I started recording exactly with that idea I do understand how it plays out at least a little bit.

 

Mentioning the Trinity Sessions, I attributed the ability to get all that and the vocalist to the abilities of the Calrec mike. It was quite a shocker to hear instead Margo Timmins was singing through a PA!!

 

What I think can be done even with rock is to get something that is much like the sound live. That people have been conditioned to think of Rock sound as what comes out of the studio doesn't change that. It simply points to the desire sometimes for recordings to be more real than real. So my opinion that a little tasteful compression (and maybe gentle contouring via EQ) might get the sound close enough more people would accept and enjoy the result while still showing benefits of a minimalist approach. Whether Mario wishes to go that route is his choice of course. No definitive right or wrong in it.

 

And of course recording percussion with anything else is always trouble.

[richard kimber]

I'd like to try the Albéniz if I may.

 

Thanks,

 

- Richard.

[Sal1950]

I was under the impression that this was Mario's experiment simply to see what could be accomplished using a true minimalist approach. We all know what can be done when you start bringing in standard rock studio practices.

Like esldude said "there is no right or wrong", it's just about deciding what the parameters were and staying inside them.

It's up to you how to precede Mario, thanks for the fun.

[semente]

I'd like to listen to the filtered version, please.

 

Ricardo

[Mario Martinez]

We are not doing anything different from what we have done before.

 

The "secret" to our sound is not on the fact that we only use two mics. The "secret" to our sound is on the way we treat our hall. That is what our Truthful Recording Technology is all about.

 

What we are doing here is just part of our regular procedure. We measure and we identify a problem that affects the recorded sound of the instruments, then we work on the hall until we fix that particular problem. Then measure again and something else comes up, so we fix it again, and again and again. We have been doing this for the past 7 years.

 

The goal of all this measuring and fixing is this (from our explanation of the Truthful Recording Technology at www.musicstry.com ):

"In our studios the recording hall is configured so that the sound of the hall is exactly the same as the sound of the take"

 

This time we are just doing one more measurement because this is the first time we are recording some this loud. At this levels the hall and the recorded sound were not matching perfectly. What you were hearing on the previous samples was not true to the sound of the live instrument because the calibration of the hall was not working at those levels. What this filter does is fix that deviation to make it truthful again.

 

Our normal procedure at this point would be to try to fix this on the hall, so we could then take away the filter to get the same recorded result. We are not going to take that step in this case because we do not want to put at risk the calibration that we do have now and that works perfectly for acoustic instruments.

[Sal1950]

I'm no recording engineer but I just listened thru the new "filtered" Rock sample a few times and to me the balance on this one is "Just Right". I have no ideas what changes were made but the bass now sounds at the proper level in the mix and also has much better detail in the string attack and tone. I could tell from the very lead-in riff that there had been a big improvement. Very nice and I can think of nothing to criticize.

 

Can't say I hear any difference in the Drum tracks, they sounded great to me on the first session and except for the change in level I can detect no other changes without setting up a level eq'd AB test.

I can only say that I wish commercial recordings could get drums to sound like this, where the cymbals sound like real brass and not a blast from a air hose. The inner detail of being able to hear the different tuning of all the drum heads in the kit is as good as I've ever heard.

Excellent sounding work!

Thanks for including me.

 

[Jud]

Mario, if you still have the unfiltered samples I never downloaded those and would much appreciate a chance to do so. I tried with the code that was provided but it did not work.

[esldude]

Have had a chance to listen to them now. Marginal improvement on the drums. A bit more improvement on the rock track. Not a big game changer. Sounds like you scooped out the level in the lower mids maybe? Maybe it let more of the definition of the harmonics come through cleaner?

[francisleung]

Mario, if you still have the unfiltered samples I never downloaded those and would much appreciate a chance to do so. I tried with the code that was provided but it did not work.

No, the code for the re-recorded sample did not work in my case also.

[firedog]

Re-listened to all the rock tracks, including the "filtered" version. I do think the filtered version sounds more like what we think a rock band should sound like. The sound is natural, but I didn't love it overall.

 

Why? Maybe because it doesn't sound like my expectations of what a rock band should sound like - even compared to live performance. Of course this may just mean that I've been conditioned from listening to a lifetime of conventional rock recordings and concert mixes.

 

On the other hand, I have a few rock recordings done live with something akin to the "2 microphone" setup, and I'd say I like those better.

 

I do find it interesting though, that I loved the Jazz and Classical selections, and only think this one is "good".

[semente]

Could you name those "2 microphone" recordings?

 

I have not been able to listen to the filtered version yet but after I added a bit of EQ and compression to the re-recorded version I think that it sounds more like what I used to listen in bars with live music, not so much like rock recordings.

 

By the way, I would like to clarify that I didn't mean, in my previous posts, that Mario should not proceed with his experiments.

 

R

[goldsdad]

I am very interested that you do hear these samples with the filter, if it works we should be able to make truthful rock recordings too

 

Hi Mario, I'm keen to hear the filtered sound. Please send a link. Thanks again.

[firedog]

Could you name those "2 microphone" recordings?

 

I have not been able to listen to the filtered version yet but after I added a bit of EQ and compression to the re-recorded version I think that it sounds more like what I used to listen in bars with live music, not so much like rock recordings.

 

By the way, I would like to clarify that I didn't mean, in my previous posts, that Mario should not proceed with his experiments.

 

R

 

Several are just "test" or audiophile recordings I've come across various places. Not sure how to direct you to them. But there's also an album recorded by Barry Diament, "Simplicity" by Work of Art. Not exactly the same method as Mario, but 2 mics and without typical post production. Multi-tracking, but everything recorded live with 2 mics. I understand that multi-tracking is something completely different, but this is a simple recording that I think better captures how rock should sound.

The album's title, "Simplicity", describes how the album was made:

Recorded in N.Y. at Top of the World Studios, these 14 tracks were captured in multi-track but not in multi-mono.

All takes were recorded in stereo using a pair of omnidirectional microphones mounted on either side of a Jecklin disk.

Though there are some samples, nothing was recorded via direct-inject; everything was done via the microphones. No pan pots were used and there is no compression or limiting anywhere on this record. The level is a bit lower than most modern CDs (because they didn't squash the life out of it) so turn it up and hear what uncompressed music sounds like.

[francisleung]

In my estimation, the transparency and see through quality of Mario’s tracks has more to do with the type of microphones and the ADC that he uses rather than ORTF and recording venue acoustics.

Whatever that is due to, let me relate my listening experience.

A couple of months ago, I took 8 LPs to an importer’s room for listening to a system at a price tag of over US$200K, yes 200K not 20K. A handful of direct to discs, including the Sheffield drum record and a Japanese RCA piano album. I can say that Mario’s drum and piano tracks are as transparent as these DDs. In my view multi and closely placed microphones do not render the recording less transparent and may even be the other way round.

 

Got the “after measurement” drum tracks (3) and rock track (1). Will find time to listen to them.