PlayClassics master file giveaway for CA members

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Just to say thank you to Mario.

Have downloaded just now 1 piano track and 3 flamenco tracks.

Will give my thoughts here after careful comparison with my favourite 24/352.8 piano tracks from 2L Norway a live recording of flamenco guitar by Blue Coast.

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The Iberia track I would say is a real gem and it rivals my all time reference 2L-049 tracks.

Its sound is transparent, crisp and sharp with impact. No edginess, strain or compression and has wide dynamic range—from pp to ff. The sound of the right hand high notes are impressive indeed.

Only one qualm: harmonics from the vibrating strings (as reflected from bottom and lid of the piano) when struck by the hammers are not as much as those in the 2L tracks. The pedal sustain at 7 minutes reveals this more apparently, though I would say they are good enough to most audiophiles.

A couple of questions to Mario to see if I am able to get a clue as to why that is so. Hope he is willing to divulge:

1. What is the make/brand of the ADC and its highest conversion rate? And why he chose 24/96 if there is a higher rate? Bearing in mind that Barry Diamont in these pages says 24/192 ADC conversion is nearest to the mic feed.

2. What are the make/brand of the microphones and how close they were placed to the piano? A sketch layout would be helpful. I could hear they were very close and the image was slightly large during loud passages.

3. What is the make/brand of the piano? This may be part of the answer. The 2L piano album used a Steinway and the house pianos offered to pianists by the two concert halls where I go frequently are Steinway grands. And I usually sit first or second row in centre, thus am used to hearing piano sound at close distance.

 

I have questions for the first flamenco track as well. Would see if Mario is happy to provide information before I post them.

Some owners refrain from giving out even basic info. For example, several months ago, I attended a demo of the Goldmund Apologue and gear. The CEO invited questions from the floor. As I thought there was upward sampling being used in the chain, I asked him whether there was an on the fly upward sampling function somewhere in the reproduction chain, or merely 16/44.1 was taken in from the CD player and the same rate was put out? He politely declined to give a yes or no answer, and hearing this I did not attempt to ask the second and third questions about the drivers hidden before the speaker grilles and the materials in the cabinets.

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Thank you Mario for providing the information.

I think there are three reasons for lesser string harmonics from the piano as compared to the 2L-049 track.

1. without the mic "inside" the piano

2. the Yamaha 7' vis a vis a Steinway

3. the slanting angle of the piano in relation to the pick up microphones (I normally hear it in concerts with ears [in place of microphones] PERPENDICULAR to BODY OF the piano.

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Thank you Mario for providing information on the recording venue, the choice of piano, placement of the two microphones and your recording philosophy. With such background I am sure listeners are able to appreciate more.

I have only listened to the first of the three flamenco tracks. Since you are here, may I ask whether the female voice is jaleadore. She appears at a plane behind the guitar in my system whereas as seen from the setup you provided, she should be in front. Jaleadores usually stand behind during performance giving cheers to singers and dancers. On the other hand, positioning of her and the guitarist in my system conforms with your sketch, with her slightly off centre to the left and guitarist, slightly to the right.

If what you hear during subsequent monitoring in regard to the relative positioning planes of the two performers are the same as in your setup, then I need to check my system and see what I should do to redress that. The fact that you use only two microphones and obviate mixing various tracks during mastering provides a useful tool for audiophiles to check their systems.

By the way, did you turn down the recording volume for her? She sang so much louder than the guitar and didn't overload the mic. This may be the reason explaining why she appears to stand behind the guitarist.

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The same gain for both microphones for every recording! I see.

Thank you Mario

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Mario will correct me if I'm wrong but I think the singer and the instrument were recorded playing together in a single musical event.

That's how it should be done both from a musical and from a sound perspective (unless you are recording pop or rock).

 

In my system I didn't get the impression that the singer was behind the guitar so my guess is that your speakers are not flat in the upper midrange / lower treble.

What speakers are you using and with how much toe-in?

 

R

 

Hi Semete,

Thank you for your response in regard to the positioning of the two images in the sound field. I have listened to Mario's track again two times and found the female voice still behind. Have also compared with two other flamenco tracks and found the jaleadores cheering from behind as well. Because Mario's tracks were recorded with two microphones and did no subsequent tampering and even no adjustment of gain for left and right, I posted the question to him.

Based on the setup sketch, the correct audio reproduction should have the voice in front, positioned at the speaker plane (she is standing at the edge of the stage) and the guitar some two feet behind. I have them the other way round, voice behind and guitar in front.

I use multiple quasi ribbons for the midrange and multiple ribbons for highs, all flat facing with no toe-in. Not commercially available.

By the way, do you find the sound of the track not left and right balanced, that is, voice and guitar to one side and not in centre of the soundstage? I need to adjust the gain when listening to it, but not necessary for the Iberia piano track.

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With my B&W CM6 S2 speakers, I hear the guitar about 1/3 of the way in from the right and the singer just left of centre. Can't say the singer appears in any way behind the guitar.

Thanks Mansr.

I take it your speakers have the voice and guitar appear at about the same horizontal plane. Please refer to the setup sketch at post no. 137. I was expecting and hoping to have a correct reproduction of the voice being in front and the guitar two ft or more behind. What i got was the other way round.

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Yes, what I hear more or less matches the sketch. The voice isn't obviously closer, but it's definitely not behind. Knowing the setup could of course be influencing what I'm hearing, but I hadn't seen the drawing the first time I listened, and I don't recall perceiving it differently then.

Hi Mansr,

Good for you that what you hear more or less matches the setup sketch of the recording scene.

Perhaps I am too fastidious about layering and positioning of images. For current listening I will take the voice as being jaleadore cheering up from behind.

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Hi Mario,

Thank you for providing information on the recording scene and how the voice relative to the guitar in the flamenco track should be positioned when reproduced in an audio system.

As you suggested, my system may not be "flat" and indeed I have never measured it.

Anyhow, I was able to get the positioning correct in the Ideale track, with Francisco the tenor standing and singing in front of the piano as shown in your sketch.

Will explore the issue later on.

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I've been listening to the Flamenco tracks and the singer appears to be positioned closer than the guitar.

 

The higher dynamic range and "clarity" of the recording could also be responsible for giving a false impression to those that are not accustomed.

 

R

 

Good that you have the correct positioning as depicted in the sketch.

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I made a quick sketch of my listening impressions regarding space and positioning.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22422[/ATTACH]

 

My speakers aren't positioned symmetrically in the room and this could be skewing the position of the guitar in relation to the right speaker...

 

R

Hi Semente

I like your excellent sketch. Well done.

You may wish to try the Iberia piano track and the Ideale tenor/piano track.

At the same volume tuning (gain), the piano and tenor/piano should appear in the centre between your two loudspeakers, in accordance with the sketch provided by Mario. That's how I have them reproduced.

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Also, you may wish to change the channel balance when playing the flamenco track. Have the voice shift to slightly off centre to the left AND then exact centre, and see how the images of the singer and guitarist appear in relation to each other.

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Hi Francis,

 

Thanks for the suggestion but unfortunately my amplifier doesn't have balance controls.

 

Cheers,

Ricardo

 

Hi Ricardo,

I use MIDI in MacBook Pro for volume and balance controls for every track. Mark each track with them. You may wish to find it in settings or utilities somewhere.

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That's an interesting idea, thanks.

I wonder if it reduces volume through dynamic compression, though.

 

R

 

Volume control and left and right channel balance adjustment is basically gain attenuation.

Attenuating left and right channel separately in digital domain produces cleaner sound than in analogue domain.

Some years ago, I used a passive device for input selection, volume control and balance adjustment; with it plugged into DAC and amps plugged into its output.

After comparing for some time, I dispensed with it. Use MIDI instead and plug the amps directly into the DAC.

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Hi Mario,

Please let me have the code for the drum track.

I would compare the sound with Sheffield Lab's direct to disc drum track.

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Thank you Mario for the download code.

I went into the Gretsch web trying to find out how many cymbals and toms in the set before I listen.

Now that you have provided the sketch; it's great.

Will listen tomorrow and feedback.

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First I should make clear what I am saying below is not to criticise but to see whether Mario spots the same issues and if he does, he will find a way to improve the recording of drum solos next time.

I set out what I did.

As my MacBook Pro and its iTunes does not play flac files, I need to change the drum tracks to wav format by a software that does not change the absolute phase, the likes of XLD, Audio Inventory or MAX. At the same time I also put the flac file into the previous version of KORG for inverting the absolute phase. In both cases keeping the sampling rates at 24/96. I focussed my listening to track 1 only. For playing other tracks provided by Mario, for example, the Iberia piano solo and the tenor accompanied by piano, the gain for both channels in my system is set to -20/-20. For this drum track I need to crank it up to -7/-7.

The good points:

*the kick drum sound is solid and punchy, rivalling the best that I have, for example, the Sheffield drum record.

*the image of the whole drum set is well contained within the soundstage between the two speakers; I have heard demos portraying the drummer with a span of a giant, 15 to 16 feet across

*sound is clean, crisp and transparent

BUT

apart from the high hat (a minute into the track) being on the left (should be on the right if the drummer is facing the audience) and this few listener will care anyway,

*the high frequencies generated by the cymbals are subdued relative to the low ones made by the kick drum; the splash, shimmer and crash of the cymbals are dull in relation to real live; the hits on the dome/bell of the cymbal are better but still not realistic enough

*the snare and particularly the cymbals sound recessed in relation to the kick drum and are disproportionate in energy to the latter; in other words, too bottom heavy or top too light;

*the kick drum sound does not project or cross beyond the plane of the speakers towards the listener; in live it does

*the inverted absolute phase track improves the receding highs of cymbals as well as their relationship to the bottom generated by the kick drum but still inadequate. The inversion also pushes the kick drum sound more towards the listener, that is, more akin to live.

 

I up sampled the track to 24/192 and adjusted the DAC to the same rate. High/low relationship improves but still short of mimicking real.

 

Just a thought and I don’t know whether if the microphones are raised further up and pointed down to the cymbals, the balance with the bottom end would be much improved or not.

 

I mention these instead of keeping silent because I am confident Mario would be able to record a drum solo closer to live next time.

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Thank you esldude; your piece is educational to me on miking.

And to semente as well for the posts in another thread on the subject.

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Mario has been kind enough in supplying much information on the recording session of the drum tracks.

I just want to say a few more words:

1. Fine that Mario and the drummer are both happy about the recorded sound as being naturally heard during the session.

2. I made my points in the post above based on personal experience on live sound of cymbals and gongs that I heard every now and then during performance in halls with seating capacity ranging from 400 to 1000. Not in comparison with other drum recordings.

3. The two drums “blocked” by the drummer’s body as coloured red in Mario’s latest sketch are the snare and a hanging tom. But the kick drum and the snare were both recorded with full might in the recording; only the cymbals were subdued, and further more they sound in my system as if out of relative phase with the kick drum. By the way the snare as I hear it was tuned tighter than normal.

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Christmas time now, so went to watch Nutcracker ballet with live accompaniment by sinfonietta.

Coming out from the theatre, I heard a band playing in open air.

Went to the side to listen specifically to the drum set about 12 ft away. In the photo herewith taken with the phone, there were 3 cymbals. The yellow drum next to the red hanging tom was the snare. I was able to reaffirm my listening perception of the sound of cymbals, the sheen, the vividness, the crash. On the other hand, perhaps I was off axis, the kick drum was barely heard though I could see clearly the drummer kicking it.

 

Hi semente,

I have listened very briefly to tracks 2 and 4 of the Lossless downloads. Below Mario’s league.

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duplicated

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Hi semente,

I have listened to track 2 of the Lessloss files again.

It was recorded in very low level such that I need to raise the gain to -1/-1. Mario’s piano and tenor tracks are -20/-20 and the drum track -7/-7. Playing a track at this level must be very cautious because if it is on playlist and the next track is a high gain one, one is likely to see a reduction in bank balance.

As I hear it in my system, chimes and bells are on the right just off centre, at the plane of the speakers whilst brushes on snare are on the left, just off centre at several feet behind.

If these are correct positioning of the two in the recording, the track may be used to evaluate high frequency dispersion of speakers, especially those with tweeters enclosed in boxes. Many, even expensive ones, may have these stuck to the cabinets.

I came across these downloads over 2 years ago and had them archived. Will have the newly downloads archived as well because there are many tracks in storage that I have not yet listened to.

For evaluating high frequency dispersions of speakers, I will use a track called 八音和. This piece was composed in Taiwan, featuring 8 types of percussive instruments, drums, gongs, cymbals, cowbell, wood blocks etc. They spread across the soundstage, also in front and behind. I heard it played live by a percussionist and have a video of another player performing it in China.

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The flamenco tracks:

I have now listened to track 2 in addition to track 1 previously, and found that at 4 minutes into track 1, the female singer is obviously located 2 to 3 ft behind the guitar. She remains at this location at the start of track 2 and comes forward to the plane of the guitar at 3 minutes. Both are now at the same plane.

Anyone interested in performing a similar assessment may carry out what I did using a Mac.

1. click “music” under library in iTunes

2. find track 1 in the list of all your tracks and highlight it. Click “file” at the upper left corner of the menu bar; after the list of function appears, find “Get info” and click it. Data of the track then appears. In the album space, type “a”. Then click “OK” and an “a” album is created.

3. Find track 2 in similar manner and in the album space, type “a” as well. Click “OK” and this track goes into the “a” album created in 2 above.

4. Click “my music” at the top of iTunes bar next to “playlists” and you will see album “a” appearing in which there are your two tracks 1 and 2.

5. Go to the menu bar of iTunes and find “controls”. Click it open and turn on the “repeat” function and then select “all”.

6. Then play the two tracks in album “a” with the correct gain setting . Sit back and listen to the two tracks repeating one after another. See if you are able to spot the change in locations of female singer that I mentioned and let us know.

 

NOTE: Don’t go a shorter route by creating a playlist for the two tracks and play them from there. It is because the playlist CHANGES the PHASE of the tracks!

 

PS: the size of the singer's mouth should NOT be larger than a grape fruit. If it is the size of a water melon, then you need to do alter or change something in your audio system.

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Thanks Mario. I take your point.

To get the cymbals sounding at realistic level, I need to increase the gain significantly but then the drums to me will be uncomfortably loud. Yes, that may be well be the “natural” situation at your recording session.

In the Sheffield Lab drum track performed by drummer Ron Tutt, the cymbals and drums have closer RELATIVE levels. I believe Ron Tutt held back the kick on the drum during the recording which was direct to lacquer disc.

In drum solo recordings of other labels, I think either the drummers hold back or they apply equalisation during mastering.

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Hi Jud and mansr,

I do not have insider or specific information about playlist changing the phase of tracks vis-a-vis album play mode.

I found that out a couple of years ago by listening. And over different versions of iTunes, the change persisted.

You may try a track or two of solo voice with which you are very familiar. Listen carefully and attentively if you aren't accustomed to picking up phase difference. In the album play mode you will hear the mouth "spitting" out words towards you whereas in the playlist mode, the same words are "sucked" in. To get a feel of it, you say the word "go". it is spitted out from the mouth. You say the same word by sucking in air into your throat. The same word is produced by both methods but in opposite phase.

Nowadays, phase change is recognised and you will find in high end pre-amps and DACs a phase change switch. I understand phase change is NOT measurable by instruments.