PlayClassics master file giveaway for CA members

[semente]

Last night I was finally able to listen attentively to the "Iberia" recording.

The music has a real spanish taste, unlike some "Spanish" works by foreign composers that are plagued with obvious clichés.

The sounds is very "natural" both in tone, dynamics and perspective and without the exaggerated detail that has become so fashionable; I don't remember ever listening to the mechanical noise made by instrument at live performances, even when I was sitting very close, and yet people are obsessed about these hyper-realistic, unmusical noises.

You also seem to get the tonal balance right, with a gentle roll-off at the top that sounds very "realistic".

It might be a matter of taste but I find that many "classical" music recordings have an exaggerated top octave sound that makes them sound "unnatural" and sometimes quite unpleasant.

Overall I find that the sound quality matches the best piano recordings I have listened to.

 

Cheers,

Ricardo

[semente]

I have also been listening to the Flamenco "sketches".

The recording is again very "natural"-sounding, "nicely"-balanced tone-wise (the guitar sounds "warm" but not "fat" or bottom-"heavy", the voice "clear" but devoid of sibilance and "full") and without exaggerating "detail".

As mentioned by jtm, the dynamic range is very impressive and overall it doesn't sound very different from what one would expect listening at a live tablao.

 

 

Again the spectrogram shows little energy above 15kHz which illustrates my recurring complaint that many "audiophile" recordings described as "detailed" are in fact too "bright".

I am only speculating here (for lack of knowledge and experience) but think that two possible causes could be mic positioning or mic frequency.

Mario has already explained that his studio has been tuned with great care and that his mice are positioned at a civilised distance, which helps.

 

On the other hand, this Soundkeeper recording ("Dragon Boats"), while very good-sounding overall, I feel it suffers from some upper-treble "sparklyness" and also excessive "detail" which in my opinion give it a slight artificial, un-musical "coloration".

 

 

By the way, can anyone explain the "noise" line at around 41kHz in this last graph?

 

R

[semente]

The Iberia track I would say is a real gem and it rivals my all time reference 2L-049 tracks

 

After looking for information about their piano solo recordings I found this video on youtube.

I can see a a couple of mics positioned low and very close and a spot mic peeking into the piano; the tonal balance (in the video) appears "brighter" than it should and a tad "over-detailed":

 

 

Have a listen at this recording by BIS for comparison: the overall tone is much "darker" and there's no exaggeration of "detail":

 

 

 

2L uses a very strange mic positioning in some of it's ensemble recordings and I didn't find the samples that I downloaded particularly pleasant-sounding:

 

 

R

[semente]

Hello Mario,

 

I think that they are using 5 mics for surround and a spot mic to pick-up that extra "detail" (that no one hears in real life).

The 3 mics you've mentioned are apparently already too close, why add a spot mic on top of that?

 

R

[semente]

Thank you Mario for providing information on the recording venue, the choice of piano, placement of the two microphones and your recording philosophy. With such background I am sure listeners are able to appreciate more.

I have only listened to the first of the three flamenco tracks. Since you are here, may I ask whether the female voice is jaleadore. She appears at a plane behind the guitar in my system whereas as seen from the setup you provided, she should be in front. Jaleadores usually stand behind during performance giving cheers to singers and dancers. On the other hand, positioning of her and the guitarist in my system conforms with your sketch, with her slightly off centre to the left and guitarist, slightly to the right.

If what you hear during subsequent monitoring in regard to the relative positioning planes of the two performers are the same as in your setup, then I need to check my system and see what I should do to redress that. The fact that you use only two microphones and obviate mixing various tracks during mastering provides a useful tool for audiophiles to check their systems.

By the way, did you turn down the recording volume for her? She sang so much louder than the guitar and didn't overload the mic. This may be the reason explaining why she appears to stand behind the guitarist.

 

Mario will correct me if I'm wrong but I think the singer and the instrument were recorded playing together in a single musical event.

That's how it should be done both from a musical and from a sound perspective (unless you are recording pop or rock).

 

In my system I didn't get the impression that the singer was behind the guitar so my guess is that your speakers are not flat in the upper midrange / lower treble.

What speakers are you using and with how much toe-in?

 

R

[semente]

I can't help but wonder why you don't record in surround.

 

With all the talk about "The Truthful Recording Technology", surround would make the most of your room conditioning.

2L consistently makes the most pristine recordings I have heard - publishing both stereo, 5.1 (sometimes 7.1) and Auro-3D 9.1.

 

I'll look forward to enjoying your stereo recording "Cabrera plays Debussy".

 

As someone who finds 2L's close mic'ed recording "un-natural" sounding ("detail" is exaggerated, and the tonal balance is brighter than life) I am interested in reading what you have to say about PlayClassics' sound.

 

R

[semente]

I've been listening to the Flamenco tracks and the singer appears to be positioned closer than the guitar.

 

The higher dynamic range and "clarity" of the recording could also be responsible for giving a false impression to those that are not accustomed.

 

R

[semente]

I made a quick sketch of my listening impressions regarding space and positioning.

 

 

My speakers aren't positioned symmetrically in the room and this could be skewing the position of the guitar in relation to the right speaker...

 

R

[semente]

Also, you may wish to change the channel balance when playing the flamenco track. Have the voice shift to slightly off centre to the left AND then exact centre, and see how the images of the singer and guitarist appear in relation to each other.

 

Hi Francis,

 

Thanks for the suggestion but unfortunately my amplifier doesn't have balance controls.

 

Cheers,

Ricardo

[semente]

That's an interesting idea, thanks.

I wonder if it reduces volume through dynamic compression, though.

 

R

[semente]

Hi Mario,

 

I would really like to know how cymbals sound with your setup.

 

Thanks,

Ricardo

[semente]

First I should make clear what I am saying below is not to criticise but to see whether Mario spots the same issues and if he does, he will find a way to improve the recording of drum solos next time.

I set out what I did.

As my MacBook Pro and its iTunes does not play flac files, I need to change the drum tracks to wav format by a software that does not change the absolute phase, the likes of XLD, Audio Inventory or MAX. At the same time I also put the flac file into the previous version of KORG for inverting the absolute phase. In both cases keeping the sampling rates at 24/96. I focussed my listening to track 1 only. For playing other tracks provided by Mario, for example, the Iberia piano solo and the tenor accompanied by piano, the gain for both channels in my system is set to -20/-20. For this drum track I need to crank it up to -7/-7.

The good points:

*the kick drum sound is solid and punchy, rivalling the best that I have, for example, the Sheffield drum record.

*the image of the whole drum set is well contained within the soundstage between the two speakers; I have heard demos portraying the drummer with a span of a giant, 15 to 16 feet across

*sound is clean, crisp and transparent

BUT

apart from the high hat (a minute into the track) being on the left (should be on the right if the drummer is facing the audience) and this few listener will care anyway,

*the high frequencies generated by the cymbals are subdued relative to the low ones made by the kick drum; the splash, shimmer and crash of the cymbals are dull in relation to real live; the hits on the dome/bell of the cymbal are better but still not realistic enough

*the snare and particularly the cymbals sound recessed in relation to the kick drum and are disproportionate in energy to the latter; in other words, too bottom heavy or top too light;

*the kick drum sound does not project or cross beyond the plane of the speakers towards the listener; in live it does

*the inverted absolute phase track improves the receding highs of cymbals as well as their relationship to the bottom generated by the kick drum but still inadequate. The inversion also pushes the kick drum sound more towards the listener, that is, more akin to live.

 

I have not yet given an attentive listen to the drum recordings but I wonder if your complaints could be partly attributed to the combined result of "distant" (I'd call it adequate) mic'ing and the acoustic character of Mario's studio.

And the fact that the drummer is playing with the mics behind him must surely be affecting tonality.

 

I don't recall reading about the height Mario has chosen for positioning his microphones.

 

R

[semente]

Perhaps someone will find it interesting to compare with these drum recordings: Drums, drums, drums : High definition music | Audiophile music recordings | HD tracks by LessLoss

 

Thanks, I will give these a try.

 

I wonder why they used a pair of mics for each channel...

 

 

R

[semente]

Last night I gave Mario's drums files a good listen and I'm playing them again at this very moment, having just returned from my kids' school Christmas party where I was sitting some 8 metres from the drum kit.

 

I think it's very obvious from listening to the recordings that the drums were being mic'ed at some distance in a reverberate room, and I can understand that those who are not familiar with the sound of "live" drums might find them "duller" and lacking in "presence", and they definitely don't sound as "exciting" as they do with the closer mic'ing and DR compression used in rock/pop recordings.

For most pop and a lot of rock, DR compression is actually beneficial because it will as Mario pointed out even-out any "mistakes" and increase the sensation of "soundstage" effect; many of these songs don't actually use dynamics as a "composition" tool anyway.

 

The drum kit produces a wide dynamic range and when hit hard (as it's being hit for the most part of these recordings) one has to increase the playback level quite a bit to reach realistic levels.

 

In my case, this has been an interesting experiment for it has revealed both the shortcomings of my speakers (limited low frequency extension and "clarity" as well as their dynamic restrictions) and the fact that my listening room is actually quite nice in regards to low frequency resonances.

 

Here are the level and spectrum plots for the third file where we can see a reasonable amount of energy as far as 18KHz:

 

 

I have just finished downloading the Lessloss single drummer file and compare it to Mario's.

 

R

[semente]

Thanks.

[semente]

from that page:

 

Then we set up the mics.

 

The mics were two stereo pairs of Schoeps 48V phantom powered omni microphones. The two left channel mics and the two right channel mics were set up as close to the physically same location as possible. It was our aim to get acoustically identical signals into each stereo pair. We placed a Jecklin Disk between the two mics for better stereo separation.

The secret to good sound.

 

 

Hi Dennis,

 

It would be nice to read your opinion and francisleung's on these recordings.

I have downloaded Duet No.5 and found that the closer proximity of the microphones is noticeable, although we are listening to the acoustics of a different room and now have two drum sets instead of a single one which in turn could lead to false conclusions.

You mentioned that Mario's mic's were picking up the drum sound off axis and that this would produce a certain amount of treble roll-off.

The LessLoss mics are pointing straight at the drums and the top octaves are indeed more noticeable...I wonder how much of that is due to the axis angle or if it's also got something to do with the distance.

I also find that there's a slightly annoying roughness in the high(?) treble, it would be interesting to know if anyone else can hear it as well.

 

R

[semente]

Well, I don't want to discuss other files from other sources very much in Mario's thread.

 

I was thinking of this before I posted my question to you, but to be fair Mario's recordings do not exist alone in the universe and the only way to evaluate their qualities and shortcomings is to compare them with the benchmarks (both live and recorded).

I'm afraid in this case measurements are not enough...

 

It would be helpful if Mario could define whether or not the mentioning of recordings originating from other sources can or cannot be used in this topic.

 

R

[semente]

These are much closer, and I believe the room is more reflective while also not supporting really low frequencies as well. Another big difference is the use of omni mikes. Theoretically omnidirectional with the same response in all directions. The pointing of the mike will make very, very little difference. Plus omni's simply have a different more sparkly sound to them than the cardioids that Mario would have been using in an ORTF arrangement. I didn't hear any roughness even at elevated volumes.

 

I do think this recording is probably too close to sound like what drums sound like from even a front row audience perspective. Perhaps the roughness is what I hear as too much of the instrument noise. Some slapping or ringing of the rims of the drums etc. Sounds you wouldn't hear from 20 feet away.

 

Thanks.

Your impression seems very much in tune with my own.

I also felt that the the bass drum sound not only did not extend as low in frequency but it's sound didn't linger on as much...I guess some people might prefer this "tighter", "faster" sound, though (just like they prefer small stand mounts to "full-range" speakers).

 

Cheers,

Ricardo

[semente]

Cheers.

 

R

[semente]

Christmas time now, so went to watch Nutcracker ballet with live accompaniment by sinfonietta.

Coming out from the theatre, I heard a band playing in open air.

Went to the side to listen specifically to the drum set about 12 ft away. In the photo herewith taken with the phone, there were 3 cymbals. The yellow drum next to the red hanging tom was the snare. I was able to reaffirm my listening perception of the sound of cymbals, the sheen, the vividness, the crash. On the other hand, perhaps I was off axis, the kick drum was barely heard though I could see clearly the drummer kicking it.

 

Low frequencies are omnidirectional so my guess is that the missing walls made all the difference.

 

R

[semente]

Hi Mario,

 

Could I please get the code for the rock sample?

 

Cheers,

Ricardo

[semente]

Thank you all for the feedback on this rock sample.

 

I have been talking to the musicians and they too feel this same way about the bass.

 

The point of the experiment is to find out how rock sounds when recorded on a documentary manner. The bass does sound the way it did live on the hall, but since I have no experience with how rock "should" sound I was not able to advice them on this respect while they were recording. Now that they have heard the recording for a few days they do wish it had sounded different.

 

If this was a fantasy recording we could just try to fix this on the mixing or mastering stage, but since we are all about documentary we can only try to fix this on the live performance itself.

 

I think we might have to re-record this sample in order to complete the experiment

 

Hi Mario,

 

I have just listened to the rock track and agree with Jud's comments regarding tonal balance (louder bass).

Dennis mentioned that the recording could benefit from increasing separation between the musicians but I think that what he dislikes about it is the lack of "presence" and the excessive room sound which will not be solved without close® mic'ing and even some EQ.

Placing the guitar between drums and bass might help a bit, though.

 

Although interesting, this kind of documental approach drains a bit of "life" and "raw energy" from the performance; in this case, or better yet for this musical genre I think that Cookie Marenco's approach is a clear winner.

It sounds very different from commercial recordings, even those of "live" performances...

 

I also feel that some dynamic compression could be beneficial even though it's quite probable that each instrument will require a different amount of compression; in any case, it would be interesting to listen to a sample with some compression as it might make the sound more "impactful"

 

Cheers,

Ricardo

[semente]

I have tried the re-recorded Rock track and it sounds better.

Then I added a little compression and EQ'ed some warmth out of both electric bass and electric guitar and it's sounding a lot more like a rock recording...

 

R

[semente]

I would be interested in hearing the filtered sample as well Mario.

 

By filtering are you simply doing some gentle EQ?

 

I have not yet posted my opinion of the second rock recording, but I agree with semente that some compression makes this have the solid punchy sound you expect of rock recordings. It has that sound and still portrays the benefits of your method of recording.

 

Of course all of this is the slippery slope of modern recording. A little EQ here, a touch of compression there. Pretty soon you end up needing the standard minimum of 8 mics for just the drums.

 

I don't see it so much as a slippery slope but more like an inevitability.

 

Drums are loud, very loud, and it's had to match vocals or acoustics instruments like a guitar or a piano with the high SPL produced by drums.

The Cowboy Junkies were forced to amplify the vocalist in the famous "Trinity Sessions" that were recorded live with a single Calrec mic because of this imbalance.

And whilst one can control the output level of electric instruments like guitars and basses one, we have been listening to rock band music for many years and are used to "that" certain sound with typical tonal and level balance.

 

I find Mario's efforts commendable but have serious doubts that on can get good results from recording amplified music in a documental fashion an a single pair of mics, even if we were to adjust the acoustics of the hall in order to EQs the sound to something more akin to what we are used to listening in a rock recording.

 

R

[semente]

I'd like to listen to the filtered version, please.

 

Ricardo