PlayClassics master file giveaway for CA members

[Sal1950]

Demo0a_truthful_master files

Mario, been busy getting ready for the holiday and just had a chance to give these files a close listen tonight.

At first I was a bit confused as the drums seemed to lack impact till I realized they were recorded at a much lower overall level than I'm used to having on the system. After I turned the level way up I started to really appreciate the sound you have captured. Impact on the rimshots could be startling and the snares had just the right "rattle" to them. Tophats and cymbals each had the very individual true shimmer that let me hear the different pieces in the kit clearly. Most commercial recordings just sound like a bunch different air hoses letting out blasts.

Sorry but my writing abilities don't allow me to put my thoughts clearly into words. But bottom line is that was the most realistic sounding recording of a drum kit I've heard. Really let the abilities of my DC-1 DAC/HP Amp and Senn HD 650 cans show off their stuff.

Thanks for the opportunity to listen to these files.

Merry Christmas and God Bless you and yours in the high holidays.

Sal

[Sal1950]

Hi semente,

I have listened to track 2 of the Lessloss files again.

It was recorded in very low level such that I need to raise the gain to -1/-1. Mario’s piano and tenor tracks are -20/-20 and the drum track -7/-7. Playing a track at this level must be very cautious because if it is on playlist and the next track is a high gain one, one is likely to see a reduction in bank balance.

LOL, Yea I just did that tonight. I had ELO Alone in the Universe in the cue after Marios files. When the track changed I about had a coronary.

[Sal1950]

Just listened to these again, with the volume turned up about 15db higher than how I usually listen to rock/jazz music.

 

Wow! Amazing. You can hear all the detail of each kind of cymbal, and clearly hear how the contact with each type of drum head sounds different. Too bad there isn't any popular music recorded like this.

 

And people who listen to high volume compression mp3's think we audiophiles are crazy....

 

What's amazing is how we can become so accustomed to music with all the life squashed out of it, we can almost miss the details that make a recording like this so special because of old hardware settings habits.

[Sal1950]

Yes, please, be very cautious with this as I would not want to give anybody a heart attack. Sorry Sal

I'll bill you for my nitro pills. LOL

[Sal1950]

I won't say more. It belongs on another thread. Personally, I don't care one iota about what iTunes does or doesn't do as I don't and won't use Apple products.

 

OUCH, I don't think I've ever heard that kind of venom towards Apple coming from a follower of the Order of the Dark Sith Lords - Microsoft. LOL

[Sal1950]

Happy new year to all of you !!

 

I would like to share a new sample. This time we recorded some rock.

 

Here is the sketch for the recording. From left to right it is drums, electric bass, and electric guitar.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23147[/ATTACH]

 

The drums are Gretsch Renown '57. The cymbals are Zildjian K series. (same as in the drums sample)

The guitar is a Gibson Les Paul with Humbucker pickups and a Boss GT-10 pedal.

The amp is a Marshall JCM2000 TSL100 with a Marshall 1960A cabinet.

 

We have recorded this sample the same way we record everything else. We have used the same fixed setup (stage-hall-mic) and the same fixed recording chain (from mic to master) as we always do without any dynamic range compression. The only thing that is different is the fact that we had to lower the mic gain by 24dB. So please keep in mind that what you are hearing is the sound of a rock band playing on the stage of a chamber music hall. We are not trying to record the instruments, we are trying to record the sound of the hall.

 

Who wants to try this one?

 

OH NO, ROCK? I'll have to get out my Klipsch Heresy speakers. LOL

Yes please, I'd like to audition your files of the King of Music.

[Sal1950]

Sorry for late report, had a couple issues here while remastering my linux server packaging. Hoping to be able to distribute it one day but right now I've got a ways to go getting the livecd and install program to do my bidding. LOL

Listened to Rock track a few times this evening. Don't have much to add beyond what Jud and esldude said but I think your right. Some tweaking at the bass amp might help. Drums and guitar were very clean and crisp with beautiful ringing on the brass and sharp rimshots. To me the bass didn't just suffer in level but even when almost solo it seemed to lack drive and definition. Just was missing attack and sounding very soft, something was stealing it's edge, it would be easily lost when there were others in the mix.

But hey, what do I know, I'm no producer. LOL

Happy New Year All

[Sal1950]

Thank you all for the feedback on this rock sample.

 

I have been talking to the musicians and they too feel this same way about the bass.

 

The point of the experiment is to find out how rock sounds when recorded on a documentary manner. The bass does sound the way it did live on the hall, but since I have no experience with how rock "should" sound I was not able to advice them on this respect while they were recording. Now that they have heard the recording for a few days they do wish it had sounded different.

 

If this was a fantasy recording we could just try to fix this on the mixing or mastering stage, but since we are all about documentary we can only try to fix this on the live performance itself.

 

I think we might have to re-record this sample in order to complete the experiment

 

Hey, it was fun, enjoyed participating. Thanks for letting me be part of the "experiment", any time I can be of help just holler "Yo Sal".

Cheers, Sal

[Sal1950]

We have re-recorded the bass so we can now continue with the experiment.

 

The bass has been recorded on the same position, the only thing that is different is the fact that this time the bass player did use the eq settings on the bass amp to "try" to get the bass to produce the sound he wanted.

 

Some improvement, specially in the definition, though I would still like more level. The early solo at about 1:40 still way down in the mix. The second at 2:15 is better and the last at 4:25 sounded best of all. Don't know if it's the notes he's playing or the pick technique he uses but that last solo sounded much better, level wise than the earlier pieces. If the whole piece sounded like that I'd be happy but still might ask for a little more level, but then I might be called a bass head. LOL

BTY that was on the Senn 650s.

See what the others think.

 

For a nice comparison check out the bass levels on James Taylors Today Today Today

Don't know how the youtube will stand against my 24/96 download but should be good enough.

[Sal1950]

I would be interested in hearing the filtered sample as well Mario.

 

By filtering are you simply doing some gentle EQ?

 

I have not yet posted my opinion of the second rock recording, but I agree with semente that some compression makes this have the solid punchy sound you expect of rock recordings. It has that sound and still portrays the benefits of your method of recording.

 

Of course all of this is the slippery slope of modern recording. A little EQ here, a touch of compression there. Pretty soon you end up needing the standard minimum of 8 mics for just the drums.

 

I don't see it so much as a slippery slope but more like an inevitability.

 

Drums are loud, very loud, and it's had to match vocals or acoustics instruments like a guitar or a piano with the high SPL produced by drums.

The Cowboy Junkies were forced to amplify the vocalist in the famous "Trinity Sessions" that were recorded live with a single Calrec mic because of this imbalance.

And whilst one can control the output level of electric instruments like guitars and basses one, we have been listening to rock band music for many years and are used to "that" certain sound with typical tonal and level balance.

 

I find Mario's efforts commendable but have serious doubts that on can get good results from recording amplified music in a documental fashion an a single pair of mics, even if we were to adjust the acoustics of the hall in order to EQs the sound to something more akin to what we are used to listening in a rock recording.

 

R

 

Let's not slide down that slope, just give it up if it's not a reasonable goal. Just for grins I just ran a tmeter on my needle drop of my original Sheffield Track Record LP

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed: The Sheffield Track Record / Artist: Various

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Title [codec]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR17 -0.00 dB -19.28 dB 8:26 01 - Side 1 [flac]

DR16 -0.79 dB -21.27 dB 7:53 02 - Side 2 [flac]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 2

Official DR value: DR17

 

Sampling rate: 44100 Hz

Average bitrate: 733kbs

Bits per sample: 16 bit

 

Dr14 T.meter 1.0.16

==============================================================================================

[Sal1950]

I was under the impression that this was Mario's experiment simply to see what could be accomplished using a true minimalist approach. We all know what can be done when you start bringing in standard rock studio practices.

Like esldude said "there is no right or wrong", it's just about deciding what the parameters were and staying inside them.

It's up to you how to precede Mario, thanks for the fun.

[Sal1950]

I'm no recording engineer but I just listened thru the new "filtered" Rock sample a few times and to me the balance on this one is "Just Right". I have no ideas what changes were made but the bass now sounds at the proper level in the mix and also has much better detail in the string attack and tone. I could tell from the very lead-in riff that there had been a big improvement. Very nice and I can think of nothing to criticize.

 

Can't say I hear any difference in the Drum tracks, they sounded great to me on the first session and except for the change in level I can detect no other changes without setting up a level eq'd AB test.

I can only say that I wish commercial recordings could get drums to sound like this, where the cymbals sound like real brass and not a blast from a air hose. The inner detail of being able to hear the different tuning of all the drum heads in the kit is as good as I've ever heard.

Excellent sounding work!

Thanks for including me.

 

[Sal1950]

Could you name those "2 microphone" recordings?

 

R

 

David Manley's ViTaL Recordings

Although not single stereo mic recordings they are live direct to 2 track pure tube analog recordings and the finest sounding analog recordings I've ever heard.

manley recordings

 

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/jsmanley.htm

 

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue58/manley.htm

 

David was a engineering genius that designed and built every piece of equipment in his recording chain and of course the father of VTL and Manley electronics, plus ViTaL records. Be sure to own at least one of his releases.

[Sal1950]

I may be running at the edge of my expertise but I'll be glad to give a listen Mario.

[Sal1950]

Listened thru the normalized and earlier filtered Rock files a number of times tonight trying to pick up on the differences. It's hard for me to put into words but I prefer the sound of the filtered files over the normalized myself. The normalized just seem to have lost some "edge or detail" to me. It may be the better dynamics of the earlier files that catches my ear, I don't know. There also seems to be slightly better detail in the bass guitar, again they just seem to have lost a bit of the detail in the string attack.

JMHO

[Sal1950]

The volume of the "normalized" file is 8dB louder than the volume of the "after measurement" file. You said you were playing the "after measurement" file at -7dB. You would need to play the "normalized" file at -15dB to be able to compare them at the same level. Instead you are playing the "normalized" file at -9dB so you are raising the volume relative to the "after measurement" file by 6dB. That is why you are hearing more of it. If you could play the "after measurement" version at -1dB you would hear just as much. So the key thing here is how powerful your system is. If your system was powerful enough to play the "after measurement" file at realistic volume levels then you would have no need for the "normalized" version.

 

This is from post number #41 at the begining of this thread:

 

 

 

As an example of this, if I am not mistaken, Sal is listening on headphones. He should be able to raise the volume on the "after measurement" file as loud as he wants. So when he plays the "normalized" file he does not get any benefit from the extra gain on it but he does get all the drawbacks of the dynamic range compression. That is why he prefers the "after measurement" file:

 

You are exactly correct Mario. As I said I suspected the better dynamics were the cause of my preference. The level control on my DC-1 DAC-HP Amp has a digital readout supposedly calibrated in db, I raised the "after measurement" playback level by 8 db according to the readout. Sounded about right to me?

[Sal1950]

I am afraid the ribbon tweeters may be damaged and also the amps for the quasi ribbon midrange drivers that go down to low ohms. Some tweeters broke already and 10 stereo amps have been wiped out.

The listening level that I usually set is quite loud as compared to many other audiophiles. And at demo sessions, some said the sound was too loud but to me that was only slightly loud. For example, the Goldmund Apologue speakers when a track was played at full output, I only considered it slightly loud whilst many others complained.

Dang, 10 amps and a handful of speakers? Time for a set of good horns! Better look at the new JBL Studio Reference M2s or something in their class.

[Sal1950]

If you wish to analise the audio spectrum you can use Spek:

 

Spek – Free Acoustic Spectrum Analyzer / Spectrogram Viewer

 

R

 

Thanks, just installed to my Linux system, will play with it and learn my way around.

[Sal1950]

 

Who wants to try?

I'll do my best if you want to send it.

[Sal1950]

This experiment has been a lot of fun. I hope those of you who have followed it have had fun too. You never know where you are going to end up when you deal with sound

 

Thanks for letting us participate and I hope our input was valuable. Spent some time listening to the 2nd meas files but hadn't had the time to finalize my opinions and put my thoughts together. But bottom line I was going to say that I thought they were overall the best yet so I think that filter version will make a good base for your Truthful Masters.

Be well and best wishes,

Sal

[Sal1950]

Yes, Mario, I understand live pop and rock concerts are very loud in order to be heard clearly by an audience of 20 thousand or more as they are often staged in open playgrounds or stadiums. Singers actually sing softly into the mic with large amplification so as to preserve their voice for consecutive gigs. True live sound is distorted and deafening; and what we usually hear via DVD of such live concerts is untrue at all.

I take it your exposure to live popular music concerts is somewhat limited. I've attended many live concerts that were neither distorted or deafening.