The Subliminal Impact of Sound - Adreas Koch

[mkrzych]

Hello,

Just find this article and I am not so much convinced about it. Citing peoples with Alzheimer or pushing a bit DSD format overall on the article, hm? Read and judge yourself…

 

primephonic | News

[4est]

What is there to be convinced about that you do not already know? He is a proponent of DSD, and this is an exemplification of his. There is not much else to it IMO.

[Daudio]

What is there to be convinced about that you do not already know? He is a proponent of DSD, and this is an exemplification of his. There is not much else to it IMO.

 

I disagree. He brings both anecdote and scientific studies of hearing that are new to me (supportive, but not revolutionary).

 

"Without going into much scientific detail of the various studies that have been made, the point is that we DO hear beyond 20kHz and also down to the single Herz's. It may not be the same process, the same resolution and through the same sensors as our "regular" hearing, but we still perceive sounds in those "inaudible" spectra to some degree."

 

( I would replace "hear" with "perceive", as he does later)

 

 

I think it is a very worthwhile read. Thanks for the link Krzysztof !

[4est]

I guess I didn't see anything really new about DSD playback, and meant that it likely would not sway one's opinion.

I disagree. He brings both anecdote and scientific studies of hearing that are new to me (supportive, but not revolutionary).

 

"Without going into much scientific detail of the various studies that have been made, the point is that we DO hear beyond 20kHz and also down to the single Herz's. It may not be the same process, the same resolution and through the same sensors as our "regular" hearing, but we still perceive sounds in those "inaudible" spectra to some degree."

 

( I would replace "hear" with "perceive", as he does later)

 

 

I think it is a very worthwhile read. Thanks for the link Krzysztof !

[Daudio]

I guess I didn't see anything really new about DSD playback, and meant that it likely would not sway one's opinion.

 

Ok Forrest, I see your point. But then, I am always interested in information about our hearing capacities and abilities, so it was good for me

[crenca]

I disagree. He brings both anecdote and scientific studies of hearing that are new to me (supportive, but not revolutionary).

 

 

Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see anything "scientific" at all. What exactly is his work with these patients, is he a physician or researcher? It strikes me as purely anecdotal feeding his stated bias...

[Daudio]

Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see anything "scientific" at all.

 

Yep, you missed it. Try reading it again, where he discussed the studies of expanded hearing range, before the the Alzheimer patients

[crenca]

Yep, you missed it. Try reading it again, where he discussed the studies of expanded hearing range, before the the Alzheimer patients

 

I thought you meant something of science related to his thesis/assertions (about the need for something more than 20khz in music, and Alzheimer patients). He does not connect the dots. Indeed, if anything he argues against it - as this "ultrasonic" range is some sort of flight/fight trigger. You would want to leave such things out of music I think...

[Daudio]

I thought you meant something of science related to his thesis/assertions (about the need for something more than 20khz in music, and Alzheimer patients). He does not connect the dots.

 

My interest is more geared to hearing capacities and abilities, so I saw the science there, and he connected the dots for me. But then I don't have any particular disdain for DSD, nor am I a fanboy either. Oh well...

 

As to the 'anecdote' part, I find his observations interesting, forming another datum to add to the collection. Somewhat like I used to get from 'Science News'. A somewhat positive indication in this study, then a kind of negative in a later one, then more as time goes on, trending towards a better understanding of some area of study. Also, it is the kind of thing one finds lots of in any work by Oliver Sacks, David Eagleman, or the like. Should not be dismissed lightly, IMO.

[crenca]

Also, it is the kind of thing one finds lots of in any work by Oliver Sacks, David Eagleman, or the like. Should not be dismissed lightly, IMO.

 

I suppose your right, I am dismissing it. I think it is because I find it more likely he is seeing what he wants to see. I run a medical practice and my wife is a physician (a specialty that works with TBI, strokes, and other brain injuries). My wife's experience with families and friends of such patients in general is that they observe all sorts of things - sometimes it's true, sometimes it just wishful thinking on their part. If she had a dime for every wife/husband/mother/father that thought this herb or that massage (or fill-in-the-blank with the medical fad of the week) had truly improved their loved one (when in fact they measure the same or worse - and it is all to obvious to a trained and neutral observer such as herself). Someone is going to make a killing soon selling "gluten free" speakers and what not

 

I find it more likely that Koch, being a known DSD true beliver and crusader, has "experimented" on some unfortunate family member suffering from Alzheimers and is seeing the results he wants to see. I don't know this of course, but I find it much more likely than the probability he has found something important about music, the perception of ultrasonic frequencies, and music. Pessimistic? perhaps...

 

p.s. For the love of God everyone, keep the gluten away from your DAC!!!

[Hiro]

I guess I didn't see anything really new about DSD playback

 

He isn't in fact saying anything new about DSD playback, when he writes that "Recording and playback systems are now available that support 5.6Mhz as a sample rate and attempts are already made for yet higher rates. As explained in an earlier article the frequency range of DSD does not have any cliffs, has a flat area for the classic audio range and then decays slowly at higher frequencies. Because of its very high sample rate the usable frequency band goes up to 1.4MHz for the slowest sample rate of 2.8Mhz."

 

But perhaps to some primephonic listeners this may be new information after all, as the primephonic web store doesn't currently have any DSD 128 downloads in its offering.

[Teresa]

Thanks for the link, which I am saving in my "Forums" file.

 

I found this interesting:

 

It seems that Alzheimer patients can be very sensitive audiophiles, more than they were before they had the disease. How is this possible? For one, the area in the brain that processes music is the last to be affected by the disease, but maybe it is also that the conscious mind tends to distract the healthy patient from the pure listening experience. Alzheimer patients may possibly have an advantage there. They just listen with very little other distracting brain activity and, therefore, may become more sensitive to distortion and brick wall effects that PCM audio can cause.

 

I have dementia and while normal tasks are now often very difficult, I seem to enjoy music more than I ever have before. I have felt it was because of my poor short term and long term memory or lack thereof, that my music always seems to sound new and fresh to me. This alternate explanation seems to make sense to me.

 

I have not developed Alzheimers yet. My neurologist says dementia only gets worse with time, however some people have lived decades before it progresses to the final stage. I am glad music will be the last thing I lose.

 

This may also explain why I prefer DSD to high resolution PCM, no brick wall filters.

[InfernoSTi]

I run a medical practice and my wife is a physician (a specialty that works with TBI, strokes, and other brain injuries).

 

Someone is going to make a killing soon selling "gluten free" speakers and what not

 

p.s. For the love of God everyone, keep the gluten away from your DAC!!!

 

As someone in the medical profession, are you saying Celiac Disease doesn't exist? Wow....

[Keith_W]

As someone in the medical profession, are you saying Celiac Disease doesn't exist? Wow....

 

Celiac disease exists. Non-celiac gluten sensitivity (NCGS) does not.

[crenca]

As someone in the medical profession, are you saying Celiac Disease doesn't exist? Wow....

 

Now your just being silly. I am saying that now that now that 1 out of 3 people have it (all self diagnosed, or perhaps diagnosed by their friend whose chiropractor told them how) I am saying that it "gluten free" is simply the latest in a long line of medical/diet fads.

 

I purchased some magnesium sulfate (epson salt)the other day at the pharmacy (simply a way to soften my bath's after a hard workout). It was labeled "gluten free"...thats how silly it is...so speakers, cars, etc. are not far behind...

[4est]

Some people ingest Epsom Salt. I doubt that is the case with speakers and cars.

Now your just being silly. I am saying that now that now that 1 out of 3 people have it (all self diagnosed, or perhaps diagnosed by their friend whose chiropractor told them how) I am saying that it "gluten free" is simply the latest in a long line of medical/diet fads.

 

I purchased some magnesium sulfate (epson salt)the other day at the pharmacy (simply a way to soften my bath's after a hard workout). It was labeled "gluten free"...thats how silly it is...so speakers, cars, etc. are not far behind...

[crenca]

Some people ingest Epsom Salt. I doubt that is the case with speakers and cars.

 

No, they eat cars:

 

 

I bet they eat speakers also, though I have never bothered to look for the publicity...

[zerung]

Empirical evidence are not something that are part of their vocabulary or upbringing for many of us - we seek validation in forms of graphs and charts. I have always preferred DSD, however ironically the Lampizator DAC has made me appreciate PCM again. Nevertheless DSD is already mainstream in the audiophile world. Mr. Koch perhaps does not need to pimp for this format as he has done much when this format was at its nascent stage. Nevertheless in this article he has provided simpler explanation for PCM and DSD properties - something I dont think I read elsewhere.

[4est]

Pointing to a spoof video about eating cars is only proof of your reticence to admit your analogy was off base.

No, they eat cars:

 

 

I bet they eat speakers also, though I have never bothered to look for the publicity...

[crenca]

Pointing to a spoof video about eating cars is only proof of your reticence to admit your analogy was off base.

 

oops, was that particular video a spoof? It happens. Guinness book of records has it recorded. Here is a guy who eats airplanes:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Lotito

 

Besides, the analogy is imperfect, but you get the point...

[4est]

No, you do not get the point. Epsom salt says gluten free because a common use for it is eating it. It is not common to eat cars, speakers or even airplanes! This is too OT and silly to comment on further....

oops, was that particular video a spoof? It happens. Guinness book of records has it recorded. Here is a guy who eats airplanes:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Lotito

 

Besides, the analogy is imperfect, but you get the point...

[crenca]

No, you do not get the point. Epsom salt says gluten free because a common use for it is eating it. It is not common to eat cars, speakers or even airplanes! This is too OT and silly to comment on further....

 

oops, sorry to offend you. I should have realized you are "gluten free"...

[Allan F]

No, they eat cars:

 

 

I bet they eat speakers also, though I have never bothered to look for the publicity...

 

Now, who is being silly!

[Allan F]

While Andreas Koch, as one of the developers of DSD at Sony, is understandably an advocate and supporter of the format, he differs from a number of industry types on the PCM side of the DSD v PCM debate in that he does not engage in PCM bashing. On numerous occasions in pubic forums, he has expressed the belief that there is room for both formats and that the consumer should have both PCM and DSD as available choices.

 

Koch sees a producer's decision to record in PCM or DSD as an artistic one, which is consistent with Soundkeeper Recordings Barry Diament's preference for PCM and Blue Coast Records Cookie Marenco's for DSD.

[Jay-dub]

I thought this bit was rather disingenuous.

In the quest for better performance the sample rate has been pushed up from 44.1kHz to twice, four times or even eight times that. But the fundamental issue is still the same: there is a flat band with a sharp cliff at the end. The cliff is generated with a brick wall filter that generates unnatural side effects in form of pre-ringing and high frequency distortion.

 

Once you're up to 4x PCM you've got a lot of freedom in your choice of filters. You don't need a sharp cliff. At 192 kHz, the stopband has to be 96 kHz or lower; for audio fidelity you need a passband of at least 18 kHz; if you can't get ringing down to acceptably low levels with a transition band of up to 78 kHz, then you are not working very hard at it.