Jump to content
IGNORED

The Subliminal Impact of Sound - Adreas Koch


mkrzych

Recommended Posts

Hello,

Just find this article and I am not so much convinced about it. Citing peoples with Alzheimer or pushing a bit DSD format overall on the article, hm? Read and judge yourself…

 

primephonic | News

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

Link to comment

What is there to be convinced about that you do not already know? He is a proponent of DSD, and this is an exemplification of his. There is not much else to it IMO.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment
What is there to be convinced about that you do not already know? He is a proponent of DSD, and this is an exemplification of his. There is not much else to it IMO.

 

I disagree. He brings both anecdote and scientific studies of hearing that are new to me (supportive, but not revolutionary).

 

"Without going into much scientific detail of the various studies that have been made, the point is that we DO hear beyond 20kHz and also down to the single Herz's. It may not be the same process, the same resolution and through the same sensors as our "regular" hearing, but we still perceive sounds in those "inaudible" spectra to some degree."

 

( I would replace "hear" with "perceive", as he does later)

 

 

I think it is a very worthwhile read. Thanks for the link Krzysztof !

Link to comment

I guess I didn't see anything really new about DSD playback, and meant that it likely would not sway one's opinion.

I disagree. He brings both anecdote and scientific studies of hearing that are new to me (supportive, but not revolutionary).

 

"Without going into much scientific detail of the various studies that have been made, the point is that we DO hear beyond 20kHz and also down to the single Herz's. It may not be the same process, the same resolution and through the same sensors as our "regular" hearing, but we still perceive sounds in those "inaudible" spectra to some degree."

 

( I would replace "hear" with "perceive", as he does later)

 

 

I think it is a very worthwhile read. Thanks for the link Krzysztof !

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment
I guess I didn't see anything really new about DSD playback, and meant that it likely would not sway one's opinion.

 

Ok Forrest, I see your point. But then, I am always interested in information about our hearing capacities and abilities, so it was good for me :)

Link to comment
I disagree. He brings both anecdote and scientific studies of hearing that are new to me (supportive, but not revolutionary).

 

 

Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see anything "scientific" at all. What exactly is his work with these patients, is he a physician or researcher? It strikes me as purely anecdotal feeding his stated bias...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
Yep, you missed it. Try reading it again, where he discussed the studies of expanded hearing range, before the the Alzheimer patients

 

I thought you meant something of science related to his thesis/assertions (about the need for something more than 20khz in music, and Alzheimer patients). He does not connect the dots. Indeed, if anything he argues against it - as this "ultrasonic" range is some sort of flight/fight trigger. You would want to leave such things out of music I think...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
I thought you meant something of science related to his thesis/assertions (about the need for something more than 20khz in music, and Alzheimer patients). He does not connect the dots.

 

My interest is more geared to hearing capacities and abilities, so I saw the science there, and he connected the dots for me. But then I don't have any particular disdain for DSD, nor am I a fanboy either. Oh well...

 

As to the 'anecdote' part, I find his observations interesting, forming another datum to add to the collection. Somewhat like I used to get from 'Science News'. A somewhat positive indication in this study, then a kind of negative in a later one, then more as time goes on, trending towards a better understanding of some area of study. Also, it is the kind of thing one finds lots of in any work by Oliver Sacks, David Eagleman, or the like. Should not be dismissed lightly, IMO.

Link to comment
Also, it is the kind of thing one finds lots of in any work by Oliver Sacks, David Eagleman, or the like. Should not be dismissed lightly, IMO.

 

I suppose your right, I am dismissing it. I think it is because I find it more likely he is seeing what he wants to see. I run a medical practice and my wife is a physician (a specialty that works with TBI, strokes, and other brain injuries). My wife's experience with families and friends of such patients in general is that they observe all sorts of things - sometimes it's true, sometimes it just wishful thinking on their part. If she had a dime for every wife/husband/mother/father that thought this herb or that massage (or fill-in-the-blank with the medical fad of the week) had truly improved their loved one (when in fact they measure the same or worse - and it is all to obvious to a trained and neutral observer such as herself). Someone is going to make a killing soon selling "gluten free" speakers and what not ;)

 

I find it more likely that Koch, being a known DSD true beliver and crusader, has "experimented" on some unfortunate family member suffering from Alzheimers and is seeing the results he wants to see. I don't know this of course, but I find it much more likely than the probability he has found something important about music, the perception of ultrasonic frequencies, and music. Pessimistic? perhaps...

 

p.s. For the love of God everyone, keep the gluten away from your DAC!!! :)

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
I guess I didn't see anything really new about DSD playback

 

He isn't in fact saying anything new about DSD playback, when he writes that "Recording and playback systems are now available that support 5.6Mhz as a sample rate and attempts are already made for yet higher rates. As explained in an earlier article the frequency range of DSD does not have any cliffs, has a flat area for the classic audio range and then decays slowly at higher frequencies. Because of its very high sample rate the usable frequency band goes up to 1.4MHz for the slowest sample rate of 2.8Mhz."

 

But perhaps to some primephonic listeners this may be new information after all, as the primephonic web store doesn't currently have any DSD 128 downloads in its offering.

Link to comment

Thanks for the link, which I am saving in my "Forums" file.

 

I found this interesting:

 

It seems that Alzheimer patients can be very sensitive audiophiles, more than they were before they had the disease. How is this possible? For one, the area in the brain that processes music is the last to be affected by the disease, but maybe it is also that the conscious mind tends to distract the healthy patient from the pure listening experience. Alzheimer patients may possibly have an advantage there. They just listen with very little other distracting brain activity and, therefore, may become more sensitive to distortion and brick wall effects that PCM audio can cause.

 

I have dementia and while normal tasks are now often very difficult, I seem to enjoy music more than I ever have before. I have felt it was because of my poor short term and long term memory or lack thereof, that my music always seems to sound new and fresh to me. This alternate explanation seems to make sense to me.

 

I have not developed Alzheimers yet. My neurologist says dementia only gets worse with time, however some people have lived decades before it progresses to the final stage. I am glad music will be the last thing I lose.

 

This may also explain why I prefer DSD to high resolution PCM, no brick wall filters.

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

Link to comment
I run a medical practice and my wife is a physician (a specialty that works with TBI, strokes, and other brain injuries).

 

Someone is going to make a killing soon selling "gluten free" speakers and what not ;)

 

p.s. For the love of God everyone, keep the gluten away from your DAC!!! :)

 

As someone in the medical profession, are you saying Celiac Disease doesn't exist? Wow....

Positive emotions enhance our musical experiences.

 

Synology DS213+ NAS -> Auralic Vega w/Linear Power Supply -> Auralic Vega DAC (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> XLR -> Auralic Taurus Pre -> XLR -> Pass Labs XA-30.5 power amplifier (on 4" maple and 4 Stillpoints) -> Hawthorne Audio Reference K2 Speakers in MTM configuration (Symposium Jr HD rollerball isolation) and Hawthorne Audio Bass Augmentation Baffles (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> Bi-amped w/ two Rythmic OB plate amps) -> Extensive Room Treatments (x2 SRL Acoustics Prime 37 diffusion plus key absorption and extensive bass trapping) and Pi Audio Uberbuss' for the front end and amplification

Link to comment
As someone in the medical profession, are you saying Celiac Disease doesn't exist? Wow....

 

Now your just being silly. I am saying that now that now that 1 out of 3 people have it (all self diagnosed, or perhaps diagnosed by their friend whose chiropractor told them how) I am saying that it "gluten free" is simply the latest in a long line of medical/diet fads.

 

I purchased some magnesium sulfate (epson salt)the other day at the pharmacy (simply a way to soften my bath's after a hard workout). It was labeled "gluten free"...thats how silly it is...so speakers, cars, etc. are not far behind... ;)

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment

Some people ingest Epsom Salt. I doubt that is the case with speakers and cars.

Now your just being silly. I am saying that now that now that 1 out of 3 people have it (all self diagnosed, or perhaps diagnosed by their friend whose chiropractor told them how) I am saying that it "gluten free" is simply the latest in a long line of medical/diet fads.

 

I purchased some magnesium sulfate (epson salt)the other day at the pharmacy (simply a way to soften my bath's after a hard workout). It was labeled "gluten free"...thats how silly it is...so speakers, cars, etc. are not far behind... ;)

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment
Some people ingest Epsom Salt. I doubt that is the case with speakers and cars.

 

No, they eat cars:

 

 

I bet they eat speakers also, though I have never bothered to look for the publicity...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment

Empirical evidence are not something that are part of their vocabulary or upbringing for many of us - we seek validation in forms of graphs and charts. I have always preferred DSD, however ironically the Lampizator DAC has made me appreciate PCM again. Nevertheless DSD is already mainstream in the audiophile world. Mr. Koch perhaps does not need to pimp for this format as he has done much when this format was at its nascent stage. Nevertheless in this article he has provided simpler explanation for PCM and DSD properties - something I dont think I read elsewhere.

Qnap NAS (LPS) >UA ETHER REGEN (BG7TBL Master Clock) > Grimm MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui /Meridian 808.3> Wavac EC300B >Tannoy Canterbury SE

 

HP Rig ++ >Woo WES/ > Stax SR-009, Audeze LCD2

Link to comment

Pointing to a spoof video about eating cars is only proof of your reticence to admit your analogy was off base.

No, they eat cars:

 

 

I bet they eat speakers also, though I have never bothered to look for the publicity...

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment
Pointing to a spoof video about eating cars is only proof of your reticence to admit your analogy was off base.

 

oops, was that particular video a spoof? It happens. Guinness book of records has it recorded. Here is a guy who eats airplanes:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Lotito

 

Besides, the analogy is imperfect, but you get the point...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment

No, you do not get the point. Epsom salt says gluten free because a common use for it is eating it. It is not common to eat cars, speakers or even airplanes! This is too OT and silly to comment on further....

oops, was that particular video a spoof? It happens. Guinness book of records has it recorded. Here is a guy who eats airplanes:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Lotito

 

Besides, the analogy is imperfect, but you get the point...

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment
No, you do not get the point. Epsom salt says gluten free because a common use for it is eating it. It is not common to eat cars, speakers or even airplanes! This is too OT and silly to comment on further....

 

oops, sorry to offend you. I should have realized you are "gluten free"...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
No, they eat cars:

 

 

I bet they eat speakers also, though I have never bothered to look for the publicity...

 

Now, who is being silly! :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

Link to comment

While Andreas Koch, as one of the developers of DSD at Sony, is understandably an advocate and supporter of the format, he differs from a number of industry types on the PCM side of the DSD v PCM debate in that he does not engage in PCM bashing. On numerous occasions in pubic forums, he has expressed the belief that there is room for both formats and that the consumer should have both PCM and DSD as available choices.

 

Koch sees a producer's decision to record in PCM or DSD as an artistic one, which is consistent with Soundkeeper Recordings Barry Diament's preference for PCM and Blue Coast Records Cookie Marenco's for DSD.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

Link to comment

I thought this bit was rather disingenuous.

In the quest for better performance the sample rate has been pushed up from 44.1kHz to twice, four times or even eight times that. But the fundamental issue is still the same: there is a flat band with a sharp cliff at the end. The cliff is generated with a brick wall filter that generates unnatural side effects in form of pre-ringing and high frequency distortion.

 

Once you're up to 4x PCM you've got a lot of freedom in your choice of filters. You don't need a sharp cliff. At 192 kHz, the stopband has to be 96 kHz or lower; for audio fidelity you need a passband of at least 18 kHz; if you can't get ringing down to acceptably low levels with a transition band of up to 78 kHz, then you are not working very hard at it.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×
×
  • Create New...