Pro vs Audiophile Obssession

[Todd129]

I find no evidence of slop attitudes or crappola equipment in pro recording studios. I'd agree that plenty of indie artists generate low-fi work because of cost constraints, or straight out desire for a homebrew, DIY aesthetic. Maybe that's what some refer to here. But let's make that distinction.

 

In my experience, spectacular capture has little to do with the brand of cables, etc. -- sometimes it just happens -- often it doesn't.

[tranz]

I have read this strange myth about major label engineers not caring about sound here a number of times and am unsure where this comes from. Sure they have deadlines and large volumes of work, so they have to draw the line on perfection somewhere.

 

These companies can hire the cream of the crop, and it is with any specialty where it is highly competitive, if you do not perform well you will be replaced. Add to that the quality of studio equipment they can afford.

 

Check out some of the vids here to gain appreciation for these highly skilled pros that do very much care about sound and making the artist sound as good as possible:

 

https://m.youtube.com/user/MixWithTheMASTERS?

 

Or

 

 

Respect!

[Todd129]

Nice post, tranz. Another place to browse around: http://www.aes.org

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[raelamb]

One of my best friends is a Grammy winning mixing engineer. Truly amazing guy who has 2 or 3 of the biggest records of the last few years. I asked him how does he decide whether to record/mix at 44.1/48/96 and he told me "you wanna know the truth? I leave it set at whatever the previous engineer from the session before did."

[wwaldmanfan]

One of my best friends is a Grammy winning mixing engineer. Truly amazing guy who has 2 or 3 of the biggest records of the last few years. I asked him how does he decide whether to record/mix at 44.1/48/96 and he told me "you wanna know the truth? I leave it set at whatever the previous engineer from the session before did."

 

Can't speak to recording/mixing, but many of the so-called "Grammy-winning" albums in recent years have some of the worst mastering ever, so the audio quality of the final product is seemingly not important, which may explain your friend's indifference.

[xyzzy1]

Can't speak to recording/mixing, but many of the so-called "Grammy-winning" albums in recent years have some of the worst mastering ever, so the audio quality of the final product is seemingly not important, which may explain your friend's indifference.

 

Agree with you a google percent (no, not search, the number! :-) ).

Grammy's are about creating popularity for the mass music market.

Its not about the quality of the musical performance and certainly not about the sound quality of the recording.

More a vehicle to generate sales for the record companies.

 

Honestly this "Grammy winning engineer" should be fired if anyone acutally cared about sound quality in the mass music market.

[xyzzy1]

....

[xyzzy1]

I find no evidence of slop attitudes or crappola equipment in pro recording studios. I'd agree that plenty of indie artists generate low-fi work because of cost constraints, or straight out desire for a homebrew, DIY aesthetic. Maybe that's what some refer to here. But let's make that distinction.

 

In my experience, spectacular capture has little to do with the brand of cables, etc. -- sometimes it just happens -- often it doesn't.

 

Disagree with you based on my listening to lots of new and old recordings. Doing good recordings is becoming a lost art in the mass market so if you haven't ventured outside mass market recordings of music I could see why you would say you "find no evidence".

 

Most "pro recording studios" (quotes on purpose because being a "pro recording studio" now has nothing to do with creating a good quality recording) recordings lack depth and ambience and are often antisceptic, sbiliant, and strident making them fatiguing to listen to.

 

Good recordings have a lot to do with microphone quality and placement along cables, connections, and the number of useless gizmos on the mixing boards and also the analogue to digital converter in use also will affect the recording

[xyzzy1]

I have read this strange myth about major label engineers not caring about sound here a number of times and am unsure where this comes from. Sure they have deadlines and large volumes of work, so they have to draw the line on perfection somewhere.

 

These companies can hire the cream of the crop, and it is with any specialty where it is highly competitive, if you do not perform well you will be replaced. Add to that the quality of studio equipment they can afford.

 

Check out some of the vids here to gain appreciation for these highly skilled pros that do very much care about sound and making the artist sound as good as possible:

 

https://m.youtube.com/user/MixWithTheMASTERS?

 

Or

 

 

Respect!

 

I go by what recordings actually sound like on my good home audio system (and through my good quality earbuds).

I have to disagree strongly that major labels are hiring the "cream of the crop" because it depends on the definition of "cream of the crop". If "cream of the crop" means "recording engineers" who are marketable and have cozied up to the latest mass market pop artist than its a popularity contest and has nothing to do with their skills when it comes to creating great natural sounding recordings. This is very evident with the horrendous sound of most popular music (flat, congealed, harsh) from the big labels (note the other post that "grammy award" winning albums being horrible recordings).

 

Don't even get me started on "quality of studio equipment". While I'm sure they spend a lot they are usually buying crap for equipment from big name companies that could care less about sound quality. It more of a "look how many dials we have on our board" endeavor. Evident again by what the recordings from major labels actually sound like.

 

Do any of you folks actually listen carefully to recordings and their quality of naturalness to come to your own conclusions and judgements?

[kaufenpreis]

ATC offers their line in very similar form for hi fi, with wood finished cabinets. FOr me, great Hi fi speakers should make things sound great; a great pro monitor does not try to accomplish this, its goal is to reveal flaws. ATC is not great at hi fi in my mind as they show too many flaws in records, broadcasts and movie soundtracks. They are accurate, but most hi fi users really don't want that.

[STC]

Agree with you a google percent (no, not search, the number! :-) ).

Grammy's are about creating popularity for the mass music market.

Its not about the quality of the musical performance and certainly not about the sound quality of the recording.

More a vehicle to generate sales for the record companies.

.......

 

I thought Grammy awards best engineered albums too. The sound quality there is pretty good.

[xyzzy1]

I thought Grammy awards best engineered albums too. The sound quality there is pretty good.

 

Best response I can give you is that the grammy's are about "best engineered albums" about as much as they are about best anything else for all their categories. "Best" Album of the year from "taylor swift" as one of the many other forgettable albums candidates? jeez.

[STC]

Best response I can give you is that the grammy's are about "best engineered albums" about as much as they are about best anything else for all their categories. "Best" Album of the year from "taylor swift" as one of the many other forgettable albums candidates? jeez.

 

Grammy Awards of 2009

Joe Chiccarelli and Vance Powell (engineers) for Consolers of the Lonely performed by The Raconteurs.

Grammy Awards of 2008

Tchad Blake, Cameron Craig, Emery Dobyns & Jimmy Hogarth (engineers) Beauty & Crime performed by Suzanne Vega.

Grammy Awards of 2007

The Flaming Lips and Dave Fridmann (engineer) for At War with the Mystics performed by The Flaming Lips.

Grammy Awards of 2006

Alan Douglas & Mick Guzauski (engineer) for Back Home performed by Eric Clapton

Grammy Awards of 2005

Robert Fernandez, John Harris, Terry Howard, Pete Karam, Joel Moss, Seth Presant, Al Schmitt & Ed Thacker (engineers) for Genius Loves Company performed by Ray Charles & various artists

Grammy Awards of 2004

Nigel Godrich & Darrell Thorp (engineers) for Hail to the Thief performed by Radiohead

Grammy Awards of 2003

S. Husky Höskulds & Jay Newland (engineers) for Come Away with Me performed by Norah Jones

Grammy Awards of 2002

Al Schmitt (engineer) for The Look of Love performed by Diana Krall

Grammy Awards of 2001

Dave Russell, Elliot Scheiner, Phil Burnett & Roger Nichols (engineers) for Two Against Nature performed by Steely Dan

Grammy Awards of 2000

Al Schmitt (engineer) for When I Look in Your Eyes performed by Diana Krall

 

Copy paste from Wiki.

 

At least two of those mentioned above are still used as reference recording by audiophiles for sound quality.

[Black]

On 12/26/2015 at 8:24 AM, Jud said:

 

Ozone 7 now. Basic is $200 promo price, Advanced I think is around $600. So then I run out and pay this money, and I'll instantly be able to take a badly produced recording and make it great, right? No? I need experience, and then I need to spend significant time and care on each recording, and even then it might not sound anywhere near as good as a version done right in the first place?

 

I think I'll stay a "foolish audiophile," looking for and finding CDs produced by Steve Hoffman and others for $1-$3 apiece at my local record store, or finding high DR used CDs on eBay for $7-$12.

 

 

I have not been here in a while, saw this and figured I'd reply, but it's pretty old.

 

When was the last time SH worked an album? I'm curious and could check, but I think it was Rage's AF releases? Don't take my tone for being arrogant or dheaded (douchey--maybe?) or vindictive-like. I used to go to the SH forum when it began, but started barfing up as years went by. He's got some Don King in him and the forum was ingenious until he started trying to insert himself in situations he wasn't in, or took a rap to his fragile ego and booted some serious pro's calling him out. Not claiming you're still enamored with him, but  I'm surprised people still drink his juice. Sure he had access to equipment at a time when all that was considered like flying a plane,  before the curtain of tech was removed. "Golden Ears" is complete BS when associated with him. Golden means money and great, so Vlad must have Platinum Ears?  Now Ludwig, Grundman, Stax, and Stan Ricker (RIP) who are true engineers and artists and the output and proof is in the pudding. Nowadays things have changed and there's kids like Alex Gordon, Christian Wright, and Adam Ayan who know how to craft a recording into money and do it incredibly well. 

 

SH's best work was on a lot of the horrible sounding MCA releases they needed for CD. It wasn't genius work if you ask any engineer, but for latter L'P's the vinyl remaster Steve did on Stadium Arcadium was solid, but c'mon, you could of sent the Stadium Arcadium master to LANDR and it would of sounded great considering how bad it was completed. My last SH release I bought was Rage Against The Machine's Evil Empire on SACD. Compared to Ludwig's initial version---I'm not sure SH even turned a dial? The only thing I noticed is it's been converted to DSD format. I know Marsh Mastering took a hit on it as they handle all or most of the AF releases. No coincident around this time Kevin Gray was looking to start Intervention Records. I rambled enough, but people need to quit drinking the SH juice. His site and fan sites are ridiculous and his censored forum is an embarrassment to anyone like Ludwig and MFSL to challenge him and be deleted. But keep overpaying for those MCA Best of Polka releases on Ebay or old DCC releases likely sold through a SH proxy. That's my two cents and I know a lot will disagree that's he's an average mastering tech--not engineer.

 

I looked up SH right now on Discogs to see what he's done lately and noticed he took Production credits (In Discogs) on albums he has no business doing so. Bob Marley "Young Mystic"?????? Wow. And an album I have in my hands and his name is not on it. https://www.discogs.com/Duke-Ellington-The-Feeling-Of-Jazz/release/7428974

 

Nuff said.

 

[Jud]

Heh, I was just referring to the fact he once upon a time did a great remastered CD of Buddy Holly's Greatest hits that I love and was able to pick up at that record store (no longer my local one - I moved 2000 miles away since that 2015 post) for $3.

 

The gist of what I was saying was simply to ask why one should spend a fair amount of money, time and effort on Ozone trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears, when there are plenty of silk purses old and new to be found for very little money.

[Ralf11]

On 5/27/2016 at 5:46 AM, xyzzy1 said:

 

Best response I can give you is that the grammy's are about "best engineered albums" about as much as they are about best anything else for all their categories. "Best" Album of the year from "taylor swift" as one of the many other forgettable albums candidates? jeez.

 

what didn't you like about it?

[Kimo]

The Hoffman site has a lot of great information for a budding audiophile, though most of it comes from a hand full of posters, many of which are no longer around.  Hoffman, himself, has offered up some nice insights over time, and some of CDs are top notch.  The DCC Doors, Beach Boys, and Cream releases are excellent.  His efforts on the jazz side aren't quite as enjoyable, compared with the XRCD counter parts, but I wouldn't call them sub standard.

 

Hoffman alone didn't run off most of the pros.  There are a lot of tin eared dip wads on that site, who seem to revel in harassing the insiders with stupid questions or contrarian B.S..  Too bad.

[Black]

18 hours ago, Jud said:

Heh, I was just referring to the fact he once upon a time did a great remastered CD of Buddy Holly's Greatest hits that I love and was able to pick up at that record store (no longer my local one - I moved 2000 miles away since that 2015 post) for $3.

 

The gist of what I was saying was simply to ask why one should spend a fair amount of money, time and effort on Ozone trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears, when there are plenty of silk purses old and new to be found for very little money.

I own that CD and it is solid. I guess when someone like him creates a forum to hopefully generate solid debate on any particular LP on any medium, but plays an autocratic despot for anyone questioning his work, AF, or DCC...it shows me someone I would never hire to work or touch an album I was recording. If he was smart he'd ask for samples from of the serious indie labels like Cantora Records, Fat Cat, or Heavenly Recordings...then send them back anonymously and see what they think. I'd love to see how he'd do with some of King Gizzard and The Lizard Wizard's LPs or Concrete Desert by The Bug and Earth on Ninja Tunes. Anyway, I think it's easier to realize what kind of mastering plan to do with an older popular title (most don't need anything, IMHO), but these kids like Ty Segall are killing it these days on albums that vary from garage to t-rex style rock. When he credits anything he's produced he'll stated "recorded, mixed" and rarely does mastering come in because you talk to him and he feels an album should be done with the mixing and mastering is a cost for the reissues for Dire Straits or Steely Dan's 20th reissue. Times are changing and SH is stuck in all his glory and fan sites. I can't even check out the place due to the dolts who are just now into vinyl. Plus frequenting his fan forum stereo central certainly helps see through a lot that's been deleted. He created a monster....monster is eating him up.

 

I was looking for a Ty Segall production, but this interview blew me away as I have heard the Hawkwind influence and his Bowie-T-Rex sound. But he puts out 1-2 LP's a year and haven't disliked one yet the past 6 years after catching him in SF at...I think Bottom of The Hill?

 

 

[Jud]

15 minutes ago, Black said:

I own that CD and it is solid. I guess when someone like him creates a forum to hopefully generate solid debate on any particular LP on any medium, but plays an autocratic despot for anyone questioning his work, AF, or DCC...it shows me someone I would never hire to work or touch an album I was recording.

 

I thought his "Pet Sounds" (I have the mono) was excellent, though I have to say the Mark Linett stereo version is my preference.  My usual thinking about producers parallels what I think about composers: Many of them weren't the greatest humans, but I still like their art/craft.

 

15 minutes ago, Black said:

 

I'd love to see how he'd do with some of King Gizzard and The Lizard Wizard's LPs or Concrete Desert by The Bug and Earth on Ninja Tunes.

 

I have The Bug's previous (Angels and Devils) and like it.  Thanks for mentioning his more recent release, I'll check it out.

 

15 minutes ago, Black said:

 

Anyway, I think it's easier to realize what kind of mastering plan to do with an older popular title (most don't need anything, IMHO), but these kids like Ty Segall are killing it these days on albums that vary from garage to t-rex style rock.

 

I like Ty Segall too.   

[Uselessoldman]

Surely the argument is how close does the sound you get from your own audio gear compare to the sound the original artist wanted you to hear? Back in the old days, good old days, all the record company cared about was when were you going to release your next vinyl, single or album. cos in the end that's what paid everyone's wages and your bills. I say that cos those were my days, Now you can create professional recordings at home on a computer, you don't need studio time in fact you don't even need recording studios anymore, erm my girlfriend might then ask why I have one in my bedroom - fun.... toys for the boys. Not only that once you have completed your track you can burn it to CD or even just upload to youtube or a more specialist music website.

 

Considering in the 1960-80s most people first heard the track on the radio or Top of the POPs then they might buy the single to play at home on their stereo music center, few people cared about the quality............. so long as it sounded ok then those of us a little older and working could invest in something a little more fancy !!

 

Seriously so called audiophiles take life and music to serious. They want to hear sounds that I would guess most artists THEN didn't even know existed. and from my own experience.when making music back then, we would listen (test) our music on a cheap and cheerful system since 99.9% of those who bought our records owned nothing more. Todays music audience is completely different with digital and the internet. I listen to Jimmy Page not so long ago give an interview and he said the same, todays audience want more they can hear more and better but then we dont listen to Zep on the radio anymore we own $$$$$ of audio gear that cost a bomb to hear sounds we were never intended to hear. That was never how it was supposed to sound..... and that came from the horses mouth

[lmitche]

On 3/4/2018 at 8:46 PM, Jud said:

 

I thought his "Pet Sounds" (I have the mono) was excellent, though I have to say the Mark Linett stereo version is my preference.  My usual thinking about producers parallels what I think about composers: Many of them weren't the greatest humans, but I still like their art/craft.

 

 

I have The Bug's previous (Angels and Devils) and like it.  Thanks for mentioning his more recent release, I'll check it out.

 

 

I like Ty Segall too.   

 

Recently we attended the Beach Boys "Pet Sounds" concert with Brian Wilson. There were major "sound enhancement" electronics in use.

 

Having heard the album hundreds of times, I can't say that the "horse's mouth" was hugely different then the home audiophile experience.  More like more of everything. The original recording was excellent.

[Lone Mountain Audio]

HI 

I spend most of my time on the pro side, and I have to say many of the posts on this thread contain information that is not true.  There are no engineers working for "major labels" anymore.  98% of major labels went of business because of ITunes and ripping.  Now Artists are funding their own records and hiring everyone themselves.  It is opposite of the old days, the money is now in the tour and the record just sells the tour.  

 

There are multiple different engineers on record.  Track engineers just get the music to tape or pro tools.  UN processed, un eq'd for the most part, just raw.  Then a mix engineer comes in and mixes it to suit the producer or the artist or both.  Now it goes to mastering and again the mastering engineer finishes the record and makes it ready for sale.   SO it well could be many different engineers involved in a single "album".  It could be a different engineering group on each song of a record.  In the cases I see, the artist is the boss and everyone works for him or her.  This is even at high levels, Tom Petty or Lindsay Buckingham or the Killers.  The project is theirs alone.  When its almost done the artist may shop it to some labels, trying to find one that will give them  good percentage of the sales, commit to marketing and send it out to their distribution.  But its really different, in the old days labels had huge money to go "create" bands and records.  Everyone worked for them then, but not now.

 

Most of the engineers listed on the post by STC work their asses off.   The engineer has a lot to do with the sound, often more than the artist.  AL Schmidt, I think he created that "sound" we associate with Dianna, the huge sexy lush orchestra is all him.  Listen to Jane Monheit- very similar.   Joe Chicarelli, he built that sound of White Stripes and Vance was there and took over in future albums.  Super raw sound, very little processing, completely unique.  Mick Guzauski, he's amazing engineer, he later did the Daft Punk record which sounds brilliant.  And these guys fuss endlessly and stay up all night trying to get the guitar right or the snare right or ?  Super picky and clever guys who are every bit as obsessive as an audiophile.  However, they are super skilled about acoustics and electronics and understand the process and work to understand why things might not sound right all the time. 

 

So keep in mind there isn't One Vision of a record, there are many.  It is built and created with the help of a lot of people all who contribute something and influence the outcome.  Unless the artists is 100% in control of every process, which was never in the old days and is more common today. you aren't hearing a project the artist created completely in their mind front to back.  You re hearing a collaboration (of hopefully the best of the best) at every level.  I can tell you that 99% of artists are never happy with the final record, but like a painting, sometimes you just have stop and put the brush down or you will never finish. There is alway one more thing to fix.

 

Brad      

 

 

          

[marce]

Deleted

[semente]

On 6/6/2019 at 10:06 PM, Lone Mountain Audio said:

Most of the engineers listed on the post by STC work their asses off.   The engineer has a lot to do with the sound, often more than the artist

 

 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

This is very funny!  And almost true (thank God its not that bad)!

 

Brad