Pro vs Audiophile Obssession

[Jud]

Having been on both sides, audiophiles are vastly more obsessive about sound quality than the pros.

 

Pierre Sprey making a recording. Obsessive?

 

[Black]

Well, that just shows to go you that professional audio producers really have a lot they can learn from audiophiles, just like physicists have a lot of new unexplored realms of physical phenomena that could be theirs to populate their shelves with Nobel prizes, if only they would take the observations of audiophiles more seriously.

 

What's there to learn? Everything boils down to costs and if buying cables for $1K and up make an incremental improvement that 90% of most listeners won't notice--there's no point.

 

First and foremost it's a business and P&L is what keep things running.

[Black]

And just honwoulf this so despised engineer be? And who might you be in your real life? Sure looks a bit like anonymous aniping to me...

 

No anonymous sniping. Just someone who only comes here to check on equipment reviews and software reviews. Most when I purchased Audirvana years ago.

[YashN]

Pierre Sprey making a recording. Obsessive?

 

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Obsessive audiophiles are vastly more numerous than obsessive recording engineers in their fields proportionately.

 

Giving one example means nothing.

[Jud]

Obsessive audiophiles are vastly more numerous than obsessive recording engineers in their fields proportionately.

 

Giving one example means nothing.

 

Is the appropriate comparison between audiophiles and audiophile recording engineers; between everyone who enjoys listening to music and all industry pros; or something else?

 

I think audiophiles, whether pro or home, are as a self-selected group far more likely to obsess over sound quality and how to attain it.

[plissken]

Don't know what Cookie Marenco's cables (which I believe she makes herself) cost, but she does pay attention to cables at least. I've got no idea if she uses any of the rest of what you've listed. Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade uses his own stuff in making his recordings, and yes, there are cable lifts along with his own esoteric cables.

 

Regardless of the believability or otherwise of anything they say, the recordings coming from these two producers sound really, really good. There are certainly other producers who don't use this sort of stuff who get good sound as well. More than one way to do it, I suppose.

 

I'll reiterate that watching through the linked videos I've yet to see any audiophile niche solutions. Is this what is considered cross examination?

 

I make my own cables also. Belden / Canare / nuetrik

[tranz]

...

 

I make my own cables also. Belden / Canare / nuetrik

 

Those are my favs too, except, I leave the connecting to those with the expensive machinery.

[Teresa]

So my guess is that the great recording engineers obsess over sound even more than audiophiles. Problem is nowadays most recordings (other than audiophile ones) are not so good but I think that has more to do with the loudness wars rather than lack of talent.

 

Having been on both sides, audiophiles are vastly more obsessive about sound quality than the pros.

 

You did notice I said great recording engineers not recording engineers, I mean the recording engineers working for companies that make great sounding audiophile recordings from the ground up (audiophile from the microphones to the finished product). Such as Reference Recordings, MA, Wilson Audio, Sheffield Lab, Opus 3, Channel Classics, AudioQuest Music, Chesky, just to name a few. As well as the old "pre-Concord" Telarc recordings engineered by Michael Bishop, Robert Friedrich and Jack Renner.

 

Having meet many of my favorite audiophile recording engineers in person I know they obsess over sound more than I do.

 

YashN did you work for an audiophile label and which one?

[Teresa]

These two sites have many videos with the pros discussing gear (and techniques):

 

- Mix with the Masters

- Pensado's place / Into the Lair

 

https://mixwiththemasters.com/videos

 

https://m.youtube.com/user/MixWithTheMASTERS?

 

Pensado's Place

 

 

And they do trust their own ears...

 

...watching through the linked videos I've yet to see any audiophile niche solutions...

 

Perhaps because none of them work for audiophile recording companies?

 

I looked through these links and they all seem to be recording engineers who work for major and indie labels. I didn't find any audiophile recording engineers among them. I am glad that these recording engineers trust their ears.

 

However, it is audiophile recording engineers who live or die by how realistic their recordings sound that are the ones who obsess over sound quality. And why I prefer audiophile recordings above all others for both the very talented musicians who don't require audio tricks to be great and the very enjoyable realistic sound audiophile recording engineers bring into my home.

[Teresa]

My standard for all things in life is that 95% of anything in life is crap. Holds true pretty much for anything.

 

Same applies to pro recording engineers. I know several for local bands and the studios they use for recording and also, of course, I am observing the recording industry in general.

 

About 5% of the recording community understands high-end principles of audio recording. This is all about using good recording equipment which bypasses as many board controls as possible, using good quality ADC, mikes, cables. Placing mikes carefully so as to remove the need for mixing board controls. The more useless gizmos on the board (pots, pans, whatever) to reduce the need for good mike placement the worse the sound. Very few recording engineers are purists avoiding useless gizmos as much as possible.

 

Recording for most current music "stars" are as abysmal as their “music”.

 

I agree, especially the last sentence!

[Croweproductions]

Being an audiophile and working with alot of recording studios locally, and also run sound at our local 500 seat church every Sunday, I can say that in my circle, audiophile recording and sound reinforcement is sorely lacking.

 

The 5% that care have very nice tube pre's, neumann and vintage telefunken mic's, ribbon mic's, all digital boards, etc.

 

For sound reinforcment, My brother and I sometimes bring in our own home DIY horn speakers to church, and amaze the congregation, compared to the installed pro QSC's, that are "supposed" to be good in the pro audio world. You don't need a golden ear to tell what is good sound, but getting there is both art and science.

 

I think there is a huge market for "minimal audiophile recording and sound reinforcment" in our area. We have jazz festivals, and a lot of musicians. Might do that someday.

[Black]

That's because anyone can be an audiophile. There's no prerequisite except to say you own some components and several MFSL, Audio Fidelity or Stockfish albums...and you overpay for certain CD's (DCC) because a group of non to semi-professional knob turners on SH Forums deemed perfect. The same CD's you could re-master on Ozone 6 and make exactly to your own liking.

[plissken]

Perhaps because none of them work for audiophile recording companies?

 

I looked through these links and they all seem to be recording engineers who work for major and indie labels. I didn't find any audiophile recording engineers among them. I am glad that these recording engineers trust their ears.

 

However, it is audiophile recording engineers who live or die by how realistic their recordings sound that are the ones who obsess over sound quality. And why I prefer audiophile recordings above all others for both the very talented musicians who don't require audio tricks to be great and the very enjoyable realistic sound audiophile recording engineers bring into my home.

 

You sound like you know the quality of the work the mixing engineers in the links are producing. Very impressive.

[Jud]

That's because anyone can be an audiophile. There's no prerequisite except to say you own some components and several MFSL, Audio Fidelity or Stockfish albums...and you overpay for certain CD's (DCC) because a group of non to semi-professional knob turners on SH Forums deemed perfect. The same CD's you could re-master on Ozone 6 and make exactly to your own liking.

 

Ozone 7 now. Basic is $200 promo price, Advanced I think is around $600. So then I run out and pay this money, and I'll instantly be able to take a badly produced recording and make it great, right? No? I need experience, and then I need to spend significant time and care on each recording, and even then it might not sound anywhere near as good as a version done right in the first place?

 

I think I'll stay a "foolish audiophile," looking for and finding CDs produced by Steve Hoffman and others for $1-$3 apiece at my local record store, or finding high DR used CDs on eBay for $7-$12.

[Teresa]

That's because anyone can be an audiophile. There's no prerequisite except to say you own some components and several MFSL, Audio Fidelity or Stockfisch albums...and you overpay for certain CD's (DCC) because a group of non to semi-professional knob turners on SH Forums deemed perfect. The same CD's you could re-master on Ozone 6 and make exactly to your own liking.

 

First, you are mixing up terms, three of the four labels you mentioned (MFSL, Audio Fidelity and DCC) do not make audiophile recordings, they remaster major label and indie recordings to try to make them sound decent, they don’t always succeed, GIGO (garbage in garbage out)! Such recordings are called audiophile remasters as they didn’t make the original recording.

 

Stockfisch makes their own recordings and are audiophile from the microphones to the finished product as are the other ones I mentioned in my previous post.

 

…I mean the recording engineers working for companies that make great sounding audiophile recordings from the ground up (audiophile from the microphones to the finished product). Such as Reference Recordings, MA, Wilson Audio, Sheffield Lab, Opus 3, Channel Classics, AudioQuest Music, Chesky, just to name a few. As well as the old "pre-Concord" Telarc recordings engineered by Michael Bishop, Robert Friedrich and Jack Renner…

 

You can’t magically turn a poor sounding major or indie label recording into the real thing. As I stated you must start fresh! Beginning with the selection of microphones and knowing where to place them so they sound the most realistic. Next, finding a good sounding performance area to create a realistic natural sounding recording. Using the best sounding equipment without knob fiddling, without any artificial reverb, without any EQ, and only edit to replace bum notes.

 

One cannot use software to make a poor unnatural sounding recording sound natural. One can perhaps do what the remaster labels do, but that is all. You can’t compare the products of remaster labels to true pure audiophile labels that are audiophile from the beginning of the chain to the end product.

 

What makes one an audiophile is not owning recordings from remaster labels but preferring natural sounding recordings and a desire to come as close to a live acoustic performance as possible within their budget.

[Maldur]

First, --- three of the four labels you mentioned (MFSL, Audio Fidelity and DCC) do not make audiophile recordings, they remaster major label and indie recordings to try to make them sound decent, they don’t always succeed, GIGO (garbage in garbage out)! Such recordings are called audiophile remasters as they didn’t make the original recording.

Thank You Teresa for good and short explanation, I wondered some time ago as MFSL and Audio Fidelity recordings sounds mostly somehow weird (AF mostly, MFSL sounds better in my opinion).

[anwaypasible]

i don't now who these recording people are, and i wonder why i haven't heard of them.

is it one of those things were the recordings sound a little bit more realistic but the actual content isn't going to make you wanna dance or tap your foot or nod your head?

if i wanted to simply hear higher resolution, i could of used my headphones and simply talked to myself using the microphone at 16bit 192khz with the microphone unmuted.

 

mainstream audio, the stuff that gets millions of views on youtube, i think they sound solid as if turning back or away isn't something i want to see happen.

i think there are some songs that really earn attention more than others based on their use of panning and sound effects.

 

but i listen to pandora mostly and i know it's coming to a snow-crash.

a boost in fidelity could do me some good.

 

ya'll talk about cd's, but i've got some store bought cd's and they don't sound much better than pandora.

i don't know how close people are to the microphone, but if getting closer helps then it needs to happen.

but i think people will be more happy going to the next bit-rate.

doesn't really matter if it is a store bought cd or a movie or youtube videos, the audio quality to me is starting to gasp for air beyond my control.

it doesn't look like cd's are going anywhere anytime soon, and it also doesn't look like high resolution audio files are going to be put on dvd or blu ray anytime soon either.

it's almost as though i thought i was stuck in mud and it turned out to be quick sand.

 

i think audiophiles obsess over sound quality because they know what they want, but they've never-ever heard it and they are constantly fighting an industry that is misleading.

they've got their will power setup to say 'stop that is good enough' or quickly point out an improvement.

i think they are more like a child in a toy store than they are about gathering the facts.

 

as far as pro audio people,

well this is a different beast because there's bound to be pro audio engineers that do work that is beyond the scope of the consumer industry.

i'm sorry? i think the songs that get millions of views and are constantly played on the radio set a standard with some sound effects excelling more than others.

but i don't want to sit and wait for them to get their sound effects perfect every time while realizing movie standards are moving up to 24 bit with more than twice the sample rate.

it's bad enough i don't get to experience those movies, and then to think my real passion (or is it my practical passion because sitting down to music and thinking is more sensible than turning on a movie and letting my consciousness basically attempt to be replaced as i dive deep into the movie?) isn't getting the attention with the industries move to higher quality audio.

it's like learning the person you voted for lost and you can't even check in on the winner to see how they are doing to come to rest thinking things aren't going as bad as your worst thoughts could come up with.

kinda like saying pressure is building up all by itself, and then the movie industry gets an upgrade but music doesn't and that is a second load of pressure building up, and then not being able to experience the movie industries upgrade is a third load of pressure building up.

 

and then i come here and see people claiming there are 'audiophile cds' and 'audiophile recordings' that don't seem solid or come with any weight and that is like a fourth load of pressure building up.

 

i think the only thing that impressed me anytime recently was a youtube video i watched talking about using 3dio binaural microphones, and the only reason it impressed me was because of the strong sense of atmosphere that was recorded basically because i knew how the microphones were setup and could translate their physical location to the audio simply because the microphone was on the screen.

i guess thinking i had some background knowledge to the concept of using separate microphones per channel with a distance apart kinda close to natural ear spacing and the fact that the scene was wet and when i heard it i got a sense of feeling as if i was there much more than all the audio (or at least most of it) i've heard since calibrating my system.

yeah i almost could smell rain in the air, and it made me feel like i got out of the house for once, and it wasn't terribly distorted audio that you would expect to hear over the phone, and how people could make videos with such fidelity as to bring some improvement on something that has been used countless number of times.

it was a sense of relief that has had me wanting more.

i don't think my expectations can be said to be high considering youtube compresses the audio (and if they didn't, the audio file certainly wasn't raw quality - even though it was refreshing as if it was).

 

it's kinda like feeling congested with a cold and your head hurts and you want it to go away because you'll appreciate the relief but it is sorta out of your control and i've looked for medicine to numb me from the symptoms and i'm not happy with them.

i think they simply taste bad and the duration of relief doesn't last long enough to justify the bad taste.

 

well here's the youtube video i went on about:

 

i think it sounds really good through the house speakers.

[YashN]

YashN did you work for an audiophile label and which one?

 

I have my own recording studio.

[Teresa]

...well here's the youtube video i went on about:

 

i think it sounds really good through the house speakers.

 

Thanks, I enjoyed that. I'm a fan of binaural and you really need good headphones for the best effect. Chesky has some 24-bit 192kHz binaural+ recordings at HDtracks.

 

My favorite binaural YouTube video is:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw8HYfb5C04

[Teresa]

I have my own recording studio.

 

Thanks, have you ever done any projects for an audiophile label?

 

Engineers I've meet who work for audiophile labels are very obsessive about sound quality, more so than me or any audiophile I know. I mean audiophile recordings made from microphones to the finished product, not remastered major label recordings.

 

Engineers for the major labels must make recordings that sound good on iPods and cell phones.

[anwaypasible]

I'm a fan of binaural and you really need good headphones for the best effect.

 

since you aren't here right now, i'll try to answer my question myself.

when you say 'good' are you talking about headphones that are somehow tailored specifically to the sounds in the video i posted (or possibly other binaural videos you watch)?

i don't think that is practical considering any decent pair of headphones can play back accurate 3d cues.

however, the cues in the video i posted seem to be as raw and true to life as they'll get (minus bitrate or sample rate or bit depth).

3d cues are simply phase as well as azimuth information.

i don't remember if i wore my headphones for that specific video, but i've wore headphones for other videos using the 3dio microphones and their phase|azimuth information is not accurate enough to cause reason to believe.

to be fair, maybe the ear shape or ear holes are doing a lot more harm than good with the microphones in the 3dio system.

but on the other hand maybe those microphones are simply not sensitive enough.

 

given a stereo pair of microphones that are sensitive enough to capture phase as well as azimuth, you point the microphones in opposite direction hit the record button and go.

then when you put the headphones on the phase and azimuth information is already there to envelope you in 3d sound.

nothing more, nothing less.

however with digital processing you can take a sound and add artificial azimuth & phase information.

or you can adjust existing azimuth & phase information.

nothing else you can do except turn the volume of the sound up or down.

 

the 3dio system doesn't seem to do a good job of scaling the audio from up close sounds compared to far away sounds.

but that might be the content creator using some audio plugin causing such an anomaly.

there was the old 3dio system used as well as the newer updated one, and based on her uploads the hardware is lousy.

though i've got a good idea of which microphones to use to replace the mic capsules inside the device if the much needed improvement proves to be true.

but i don't think i'd pay money for fake ears getting in the way distorting valid phase & azimuth information.

 

i've heard other asmr content creators, some used the 3dio again and really the sound isn't acceptable as a tool in my box.

but i will give credit where credit is due, because the video i shared really does show the best of what the hardware could do given the scene had valid atmospheric sound from the tires driving on the wet road.

there is another video posted by the same content creator walking around in new york and there isn't anything producing a sound really.

there are footsteps, but they are too hard to hear thus are null.

there really isn't anybody talking, and it's hard to find much of any sound let alone a sound that ignites the soundscape.

plus, i think in the first video there was easily a difference that could be heard as far as how loud the person sounded.

perhaps they had the microphone preamp turned up higher to cause that to happen.

or perhaps a compressor was used.

but you could really witness the microphones struggling to capture the distant sounds in the second video and i thought it was very disappointing compared to the first video.

 

however, considering the angle of the ears on the 3dio basically force the microphones to record what is in front of it (and somewhat to the sides)

i feel my speakers being in front of me with sounds able to splash on the sides of me is a much more extensive accuracy of valid reproduction played back compared to wearing headphones.

if those ears weren't there, then yeah i'd hear higher accuracy with the headphones on or with the speakers placed directly to the sides of me.

perfect reproduction requires the speakers to be the same distance apart as the microphone capsules and playing audio from the middle of the room out towards the walls.

as far as perfect goes, you really can't do it any easier.

if you use processing that allows you to put the speakers wherever you want, there's going to be a massive amount of correction applied to get the speakers to play as if they are in the perfect position.

 

from where i come from, giving bad advice is harassment.

 

i'm intolerant when it comes to listening to male asmr content creators.

[Teresa]

when you say 'good' are you talking about headphones that are somehow tailored specifically to the sounds in the video i posted (or possibly other binaural videos you watch)?

 

No, just good headphones. It's really the other way around, binaural recordings are most real sounding on headphones, as quoted in the "Donkey Zucchini" YouTube video I posted "Headphones, or it didn't happen..."

 

Thus, I was just saying that in my experience good headphones are more revealing for binaural recordings than speakers. With headphones binaural sound comes from all around me. In the YouTube I posted "Donkey Zucchini" when someone knocked on his door, it really did sound like someone knocking on my door. As far as I know speakers cannot do that. I always listen to binaural recordings with headphones instead of speakers.

[anwaypasible]

Engineers for the major labels must make recordings that sound good on iPods and cell phones.

 

are the words 'ipods' and 'cell phones' labels you've given to psychotic rooms in the conscious or subconscious? lol

[anwaypasible]

I was just saying that in my experience good headphones are more revealing for binaural recordings than speakers. With headphones binaural sound comes from all around me. In the YouTube I posted "Donkey Zucchini" when someone knocked on his door, it really did sound like someone knocking on my door. As far as I know speakers cannot do that. I always listen to binaural recordings with headphones instead of speakers.

 

my floor standing speakers have made me think someone knocked on my door before, more than once honestly.

i don't know if it helps any, but my right speaker doesn't have a wall - there's only a slab of corner for the rear.

coincidentally the knock also came from the right side.

certainly no reflections in the way to allow the sound to be perceived as real.

 

i can get a good sense of binaural with my floor standing speakers considering they are using the 3dio system with the ears pointed about the same degree as my speaker positions.

the only time that experience really gets ruined is when the person gets up close to the microphone because instead of the sound increasing in amplitude right up next to my ear the sound is instead much louder and further away from me.

though that might be one key point some people prefer to use headphones for.

but if you really wanted to use floor standing speakers and get a headphone like experience, you need modulation dialed in for your distance away from the speaker (and an accurate speed of sound for the air in your room helps too).

[YashN]

Thanks, have you ever done any projects for an audiophile label?

 

No, I work on my own and for myself.

 

Engineers I've meet who work for audiophile labels are very obsessive about sound quality, more so than me or any audiophile I know.

 

Good for them. They're still a minority and less obsessive compared to what happens in audiophile playback land.

 

Engineers for the major labels must make recordings that sound good on iPods and cell phones.

 

Is totally orthogonal to what we're considering, has really no bearing at all on my statement or the argumentation around it.