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The first mile: What power stations are best for audio?


Boris75

What power stations are best for audio?  

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What sort of reality checks would one do?

 

1. Is the seller making claims counter to established physics?

2. Are the alleged benefits quantifiable and verifiable in nature, or are they vague and subjective?

3. Does the price seem reasonable in relation to (estimated) manufacturing costs?

4. Is the product named after a snake?

 

What if the counterfeit passed them, whether they be electrical, sonic, or looks; conversely, what if the "real thing" flunked?

 

That's where things get a bit iffy. I can't think of a way to make a power cord that doesn't pass whatever tests you might subject it to short of it actually melting. There might of course be a small difference in inductance or capacitance, but for two more or less straight pieces of wire, neither is going to be remotely high enough to make a difference.

 

Shunyata (IIRC) will show you plenty of pretty graphs of how much "better" their power cables respond to high-current transients. What they don't show is any improvement in the output from an attached amp, I'm guessing because there isn't any.

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BTW - am I correct in recalling you have a steel frame bike? If yes, I was curious what the advantages are.

 

Cost. It is the least expensive material used to make bike frames, and the easiest for a custom builder to work with. (I also think it is the most comfortable. It is heavier and more flexible than aluminum, titanium or carbon fiber frames).

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Shunyata (IIRC) will show you plenty of pretty graphs of how much "better" their power cables respond to high-current transients. What they don't show is any improvement in the output from an attached amp, I'm guessing because there isn't any.

 

So they show measurements, people say they hear differences, but due to your subjective doubt and "guessing" at their motivation for not showing other measurements, we should treat their claims as unscientific?

 

If the situation were reversed (measurements and listening indicating no difference, someone subjectively guessing there ought to be one), you'd never accept it, right? Then on what basis should we accept your doubt as a position we ought to share?

 

I prefer to keep an open mind until there is persuasive evidence either way.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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So they show measurements, people say they hear differences, but due to your subjective doubt and "guessing" at their motivation for not showing other measurements, we should treat their claims as unscientific?

 

If the situation were reversed (measurements and listening indicating no difference, someone subjectively guessing there ought to be one), you'd never accept it, right? Then on what basis should we accept your doubt as a position we ought to share?

 

I prefer to keep an open mind until there is persuasive evidence either way.

 

Read that somewhere Jud :) :

"Arrogant know-it-alls stir up discord, but wise men listen to each other's counsel"

 


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1. Is the seller making claims counter to established physics?

2. Are the alleged benefits quantifiable and verifiable in nature, or are they vague and subjective?

3. Does the price seem reasonable in relation to (estimated) manufacturing costs?

4. Is the product named after a snake?

 

 

 

That's where things get a bit iffy. I can't think of a way to make a power cord that doesn't pass whatever tests you might subject it to short of it actually melting. There might of course be a small difference in inductance or capacitance, but for two more or less straight pieces of wire, neither is going to be remotely high enough to make a difference.

 

Shunyata (IIRC) will show you plenty of pretty graphs of how much "better" their power cables respond to high-current transients. What they don't show is any improvement in the output from an attached amp, I'm guessing because there isn't any.

 

The problem with people like you is than never realize than those "small differences" can be captured by the ears / brain system. For this, of course, you need a trained and a normal ear, also, a good listening gear (no a Maserati, but a nice Toyota).

 

Some top of the line (and very expensive) listening gear has some of 'protection' from noise from the external power line, but some other don't, because they think it can be harmful for the final SQ, or, not all power lines in the world are the same regarding noise issues. Go guess you why excellent (and expensive) music gear invest a lot of money in the power supply (at least a third of their cost) they have...!

 

Roch

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So they show measurements, people say they hear differences, but due to your subjective doubt and "guessing" at their motivation for not showing other measurements, we should treat their claims as unscientific?

 

They show differences that scientifically shouldn't have any bearing on the sound quality. If the output is unaffected, what does it matter what the input looks like?

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They show differences that scientifically shouldn't have any bearing on the sound quality.

 

I haven't seen Shunyata's measurements. You mentioned faster response to transients. Are you saying as a matter of physics that amps, preamps or other equipment are incapable of electrically following this improved transient response, which would imply a quite thorough knowledge of audio circuit design; and/or that humans are incapable of sensing this improved response, which would imply as well a quite thorough knowledge of the biology and neurology involved in hearing?

 

If the output is unaffected, what does it matter what the input looks like?

 

I thought you said you were guessing the output was unaffected (see question above regarding knowledge of audio circuit designs). Have you now become certain, and if so, will you provide us the evidence that persuaded you?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I haven't seen Shunyata's measurements. You mentioned faster response to transients. Are you saying as a matter of physics that amps, preamps or other equipment are incapable of electrically following this improved transient response, which would imply a quite thorough knowledge of audio circuit design; and/or that humans are incapable of sensing this improved response, which would imply as well a quite thorough knowledge of the biology and neurology involved in hearing?

 

The power supply in the amp should have sufficient filter capacitors that a load transient doesn't need to be immediately satisfied by the mains connection. If not, it is a faulty design. Besides, the response to a change in load depends on the cabling all the way to your local substation, at a minimum, not just the last few feet.

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The power supply in the amp should have sufficient filter capacitors that a load transient doesn't need to be immediately satisfied by the mains connection. If not, it is a faulty design.

 

That sounds like a design opinion rather than a matter of physical science.

 

Besides, the response to a change in load depends on the cabling all the way to your local substation, at a minimum, not just the last few feet.

 

Oh, that old thing. In fact, the power from my local substation to my home must meet regulatory requirements that virtually remove it from consideration. If you research the issue, as I have in preparation for having solar and possibly battery power installed in my next home, you will find the major factors all have to do with electronics and electrical demand inside the home. So that trope about "the last few feet of miles of cable" is a plausible sounding explanation without an actual scientific basis.

 

It would have been a lot less fuss if you would simply have explained that you remain skeptical in spite of subjective reports and actual (though by no means conclusive) measurements, rather than pretending there was a specific violation of an accepted physical principle you could point to.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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1. Is the seller making claims counter to established physics?

2. Are the alleged benefits quantifiable and verifiable in nature, or are they vague and subjective?

3. Does the price seem reasonable in relation to (estimated) manufacturing costs?

4. Is the product named after a snake?

 

 

 

That's where things get a bit iffy. I can't think of a way to make a power cord that doesn't pass whatever tests you might subject it to short of it actually melting. There might of course be a small difference in inductance or capacitance, but for two more or less straight pieces of wire, neither is going to be remotely high enough to make a difference.

 

Shunyata (IIRC) will show you plenty of pretty graphs of how much "better" their power cables respond to high-current transients. What they don't show is any improvement in the output from an attached amp, I'm guessing because there isn't any.

 

 

In a power supply, the reactance of the power transformer is the biggest factor on the primary side of the supply by orders of magnitude. Whatever the manufacturer claims for "high-current transients" of their mains cords, what the power transformer does with them is far more influential than what 2 meters or so of thick-as-a-baby's-arm mains cable could possibly do. Not saying that those who buy these cables don't hear a difference, just that most of what the cable manufacturers cite as scientific justification for their designs (and their prices) is gibberish.

George

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The power supply in the amp should have sufficient filter capacitors that a load transient doesn't need to be immediately satisfied by the mains connection. If not, it is a faulty design. Besides, the response to a change in load depends on the cabling all the way to your local substation, at a minimum, not just the last few feet.

 

I would have thought so too, especially with a design such as the Nelson Pass 150W Class A monoblocks running at WELL below their rated output power, but at a recent listening session, all 4 of us present heard repeatable differences between $10K of power cables and hardware store 15A mains cables, despite the monoblocks being powered from an inexpensive power board. BTW, 2 of us were NOT privy to which cables were in use at the time, yet we all reported hearing similar differences .

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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I would have thought so too, especially with a design such as the Nelson Pass 150W Class A monoblocks running at WELL below their rated output power, but at a recent listening session, all 4 of us present heard repeatable differences between $10K of power cables and hardware store 15A mains cables, despite the monoblocks being powered from an inexpensive power board. BTW, 2 of us were NOT privy to which cables were in use at the time, yet we all reported hearing similar differences .

 

I'll freely admit I know precious little about audio design, so if the following question is laughable, forgive me. Is it at all possible that an amp designed for extremely quick reaction to transients - great slew rate and that sort of thing - would have the capability of showing differences in speed of reaction to transients in the power circuitry (cable, power conditioning if any) preceding it?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Oh, that old thing. In fact, the power from my local substation to my home must meet regulatory requirements that virtually remove it from consideration.

 

Do you believe government regulations have the power to overrule physics?

 

If you research the issue, as I have in preparation for having solar and possibly battery power installed in my next home, you will find the major factors all have to do with electronics and electrical demand inside the home. So that trope about "the last few feet of miles of cable" is a plausible sounding explanation without an actual scientific basis.

 

Now you're conflating independent things. High-frequency noise, such as that generated by motors and switching power supplies, is indeed most prevalent close to the source. That's not what this claim was about. If a high load is switched on or off, the response depends on the characteristics of the entire path leading up to said load. In practice, the local substation transformer can be regarded as the source. Replacing a tiny fraction of all that wiring isn't going to make an appreciable difference even if you were to make it superconducting.

 

It would have been a lot less fuss if you would simply have explained that you remain skeptical in spite of subjective reports and actual (though by no means conclusive) measurements, rather than pretending there was a specific violation of an accepted physical principle you could point to.

 

It's violating the principle of the power supply filter capacitor.

 

BTW, these are the graphs I was referring to: Shunyata Research : Official Site - Shunyata Research : Official Site

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I'll freely admit I know precious little about audio design, so if the following question is laughable, forgive me. Is it at all possible that an amp designed for extremely quick reaction to transients - great slew rate and that sort of thing - would have the capability of showing differences in speed of reaction to transients in the power circuitry (cable, power conditioning if any) preceding it?

 

Only if its power supply is inadequate for the load.

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I'll freely admit I know precious little about audio design, so if the following question is laughable, forgive me. Is it at all possible that an amp designed for extremely quick reaction to transients - great slew rate and that sort of thing - would have the capability of showing differences in speed of reaction to transients in the power circuitry (cable, power conditioning if any) preceding it?

 

Hi Jud

Yes. Even high quality electrolytic capacitor manufacturers specify the slew rate of their capacitors and other important parameters. However, in this case, I would have thought that due to way less than full output power being used at the time, that the size of the PSU electrolytic capacitors and their storage capacity would have made any differences far less obvious, if at all. Perhaps there was far less rubbish being induced into other sensitive areas and interconnects due to their type of construction ?

 

Regards

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Only if its power supply is inadequate for the load.

 

However, in the REAL commercial world , where the accountants have in most cases, the final say, the capacity of the supply may not be quite what the designing Engineer(s) may have wished for.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Now you're conflating independent things. High-frequency noise, such as that generated by motors and switching power supplies, is indeed most prevalent close to the source. That's not what this claim was about. If a high load is switched on or off, the response depends on the characteristics of the entire path leading up to said load. In practice, the local substation transformer can be regarded as the source. Replacing a tiny fraction of all that wiring isn't going to make an appreciable difference even if you were to make it superconducting.

 

No, I'm not conflating independent things. Not only noise (primarily harmonic distortion) but also adequacy for load (power factor, etc.) are part of the requirements.

 

Only if its power supply is inadequate for the load.

 

Right, so we don't need to worry about this with amplifiers in our own homes. But according to your discussion above, we should worry about it if someone in a home half a mile away being fed from the same substation turns on his amplifier. That sounds like good logical scientific thinking to me.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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No, I'm not conflating independent things. Not only noise (primarily harmonic distortion) but also adequacy for load (power factor, etc.) are part of the requirements.

 

Are you talking about regulatory requirements again? Those do not mandate a perfect, zero-impedance power source, far from it, and nothing, short of actual magic, done to the last few feet of the power line can alter the impedance of much larger portion leading up to it.

 

Right, so we don't need to worry about this with amplifiers in our own homes. But according to your discussion above, we should worry about it if someone in a home half a mile away being fed from the same substation turns on his amplifier. That sounds like good logical scientific thinking to me.

 

How you arrived at that interpretation is beyond my imagination.

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And that is why we don't run our amps at their maximum rated power.

 

I wouldn't. and you wouldn't , but try explaining to many people that "square" waves destroy tweeters !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Are you talking about regulatory requirements again? Those do not mandate a perfect, zero-impedance power source, far from it, and nothing, short of actual magic, done to the last few feet of the power line can alter the impedance of much larger portion leading up to it.

 

Of course it isn't perfect, and neither is the design of an amplifier. Yet you say a properly designed amplifier won't act differently with a cable that is quick to respond to transient demands than it will to one that is slower to respond. And I say the power grid is properly designed, such that a model of an amplifier's transient power demands may assume the supply to the box outside the home does not in practicality limit those demands.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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nothing, short of actual magic, done to the last few feet of the power line can alter the impedance of much larger portion leading up to it.

 

You keep talking like the current capability of the last 1.8M (or whatever) is all that matters. In the real world there will be a lot of PSU artifacts being injected back into the AC mains which can induce into nearby interconnects etc. unless extreme care with layout etc. is taken. The better cables aren't just 3 twisted wires in a plastic sheath with copper conductor dimensioning designed to suit the maximum current requirements of a heating element in a jug etc.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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