The first mile: What power stations are best for audio?

[gmgraves]

I acutally appreciate Boris75's take on this subject. Those very high dollar power cords are a strange thing for me to grasp. Sort of like take a long chain, and then removing a single link and replacing it with a link that is overengineered by a 1000% compared to all the rest - what is the point?

 

Those "audiophile" big buck USB cables are closer to my wheelhouse. They seem to rely on the ignorance of their purchaser as to what exactly a signal that transports a digital layer (yes, the physical layer is always "analog") is, and how the whole chain works. Yes, the cable can be a problem - up to a point, and then it is a transport.

 

When reviews of these cables say things like "this cable really nails the midrange" it is clear they don't understand what a digital signal is and how the degradation of that signal would occur, and how that degradation would affect the data...

 

The problem is that you are talking to a group of people who, generally speaking, don't care that the physics of electricity say that power cords and USB cables can't do to the sound what they say it does. They "hear" profound differences between one and another, and that's that. No sense trying to explain it to them, they'll just say that there are things about audio that science just hasn't caught-up with their ears yet on. Who knows, maybe they're right, but imagination is a very powerful thing and I remain extremely skeptical. My only interest here is warning "crenca" from getting embroiled in an endless argument that goes nowhere. I will not comment further on the matter.

[Allan F]

My only interest here is warning "crenca" from getting embroiled in an endless argument that goes nowhere. I will not comment further on the matter.

 

Promise?

[gmgraves]

Oh the irony, an American calling a European power plug flimsy.

 

Well, that two-prong mains plug with the widely spaced round prongs IS flimsy compared to an American plug (most of which have three prongs two of which are flat blades and one of which (the ground) is round). I've used that Euro plug all over Europe and it seems to be the standard on the parts of the Continent I've visited: Italy, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, France and Spain. Obviously, I'm not talking about England who probably has the best mains plug of all (it might seem like overkill to some , but given your mains voltage, I'd say it's the best I've seen).

 

 

 

More or less. 230 V is nominal for most of continental Europe while Britain has 240 V. The voltage can obviously vary depending on load conditions and distance from the transformer. At home (in Britain) I usually have 245-249 V. Voltages as low as 215 V are also considered acceptable.

The plugs are actually not as similar as they appear at first glance. Especially the ground connection varies considerably, and Italy even has two different types (high and low current). The Europlug is a flat two-pronged connector (no ground) compatible with the sockets in most of continental Europe, and most grounded plugs work everywhere except Italy. And then there's Britain.

 

I've only seen the low current plug which has two (only) round prongs, fairly widely spaced. That's the only adapter I have and I use it connect my computer, electric razor, and battery charger for my various digital cameras, music players, etc. that always accompanied me to Europe in all of the above named countries.

[mansr]

Well, that two-prong mains plug with the widely spaced round prongs IS flimsy compared to an American plug (most of which have three prongs two of which are flat blades and one of which (the ground) is round). I've used that Euro plug all over Europe and it seems to be the standard on the parts of the Continent I've visited: Italy, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, France and Spain. Obviously, I'm not talking about England who probably has the best mains plug of all (it might seem like overkill to some , but given your mains voltage, I'd say it's the best I've seen).

 

I've never had a Europlug fall out of the socket because a fly farted three blocks away, something I can't say about the US plugs. Also, you should be comparing it to an ungrounded US plug, which has only two flimsy blades. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if the sockets had higher contact pressure, but most don't.

 

The only downside of the British plug is that if left on the floor, the pins tend to point upward. Not fun to step on barefoot.

 

I've only seen the low current plug which has two (only) round prongs, fairly widely spaced. That's the only adapter I have and I use it connect my computer, electric razor, and battery charger for my various digital cameras, music players, etc. that always accompanied me to Europe in all of the above named countries.

 

The Italian grounded plug has three pins in a row. The high-current one has slightly thicker and wider spaced pins. Many sockets accommodate both types. Next time you're in Germany, take note of the ground connection with a clip straddling the plug instead of the pin (in the socket) used in France.

[crenca]

The problem is that you are talking to a group of people who, generally speaking, don't care that the physics of electricity say that power cords and USB cables can't do to the sound what they say it does. They "hear" profound differences between one and another, and that's that. No sense trying to explain it to them, they'll just say that there are things about audio that science just hasn't caught-up with their ears yet on. Who knows, maybe they're right, but imagination is a very powerful thing and I remain extremely skeptical. My only interest here is warning "crenca" from getting embroiled in an endless argument that goes nowhere. I will not comment further on the matter.

 

 

I hear ya...

[gmgraves]

I've never had a Europlug fall out of the socket because a fly farted three blocks away, something I can't say about the US plugs. Also, you should be comparing it to an ungrounded US plug, which has only two flimsy blades. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if the sockets had higher contact pressure, but most don't.

 

I've never had a US plug fall out, but I have had them pull out when using extension cords that are stretched too far. I find the three-pronged domestic variety quite robust, and the three-pronged single-phase industrial variety to be almost as good as the British mains plug (and you can't pull them out easily even with an extension cord too far!). Unfortunately, the Japanese adopted the 1950's style US two-prong plug and they aren't as good as modern American plugs. Keep in mind that US mains voltage is 120 Volts (nominally) and Japanese is only 100 Volts (both are 60 Hz, though)

 

The only downside of the British plug is that if left on the floor, the pins tend to point upward. Not fun to step on barefoot.

 

OUCH! Also those humongous plugs tend to make your wall-warts look silly!

 

The Italian grounded plug has three pins in a row. The high-current one has slightly thicker and wider spaced pins. Many sockets accommodate both types. Next time you're in Germany, take note of the ground connection with a clip straddling the plug instead of the pin (in the socket) used in France.

 

I've never encountered these as my only experience with European mains plugs and sockets has been in hotel rooms.

[One and a half]

Back to the topic of being closer to a power station, the real physics of attenuation come into play.

 

A power cord cannot possibly have an effect on the output audio signal?

The Ignorance that Shocks and the Audiophile that Talks

Louis Motek - LessLoss audio

 

Interviews at MonoStereo

 

I don't own any Lossless products, however given that the company has researched, even down the the plugs used, why power cables could make a difference should give them some attention, rather than being completely dismissed. Shunyata and others are similar. Both companies embellish their product when it comes to the presentation far too much, IMHO however the underlying research is similar and to me fundamentally sound logic.

 

HMS-Elektronik Hans M. Strassner GmbH presented a white paper on the same topic, it's in German, also takes about the paths of noise.

 

There are those that scream black and blue that power cables don't make a difference, then it's OK with me, I don't listen to your system, so no big deal.

 

Why are some power cords $10,000? Free market, if you offer it for sale, people will come Not many though.

 

[mansr]

I don't own any Lossless products, however given that the company has researched, even down the the plugs used, why power cables could make a difference should give them some attention, rather than being completely dismissed. Shunyata and others are similar. Both companies embellish their product when it comes to the presentation far too much, IMHO however the underlying research is similar and to me fundamentally sound logic.

 

The articles on the Lessloss website are nothing but technobabble. Shunyata isn't much better, and don't get me started on Synergistic Research.

[Jud]

The articles on the Lessloss website are nothing but technobabble. Shunyata isn't much better, and don't get me started on Synergistic Research.

 

About Synergistic, you and I are very much of the same mind. A comment of mine at another audio site once caused them to change a bit of their web copy to something marginally less egregious.

[mansr]

About Synergistic, you and I are very much of the same mind. A comment of mine at another audio site once caused them to change a bit of their web copy to something marginally less egregious.

 

Wow, I can't imagine what it might have said originally.

[Jud]

Wow, I can't imagine what it might have said originally.

 

The original claim was that they hooked up cables to a Van de Graaff generator and thereby induced quantum tunneling, resulting in improved performance.

 

I pointed out quantum tunneling occurs everywhere in the universe uncountable times each tiniest fraction of a second, and a static electrical charge wasn't going to do anything at all to change that.

 

When I next checked their website, it said cable performance was improved "through a process *we call* quantum tunneling."

[wgscott]

Wow, I can't imagine what it might have said originally.

 

It is quoted in here:

 

Quantum-mechanical tunneling and cables - Blogs - Computer Audiophile

[mansr]

The original claim was that they hooked up cables to a Van de Graaff generator and thereby induced quantum tunneling, resulting in improved performance.

 

I pointed out quantum tunneling occurs everywhere in the universe uncountable times each tiniest fraction of a second, and a static electrical charge wasn't going to do anything at all to change that.

 

When I next checked their website, it said cable performance was improved "through a process *we call* quantum tunneling."

 

Ah, that nonsense. Didn't they even claim it improved the sound of brass instruments?

[Jud]

Ah, that nonsense. Didn't they even claim it improved the sound of brass instruments?

 

Yep, supposed to impart its "improved sound" to everything played through it, which to me is the definition of distortion.

[wgscott]

It is quoted in here:

 

Quantum-mechanical tunneling and cables - Blogs - Computer Audiophile

 

Here is what I originally cut and pasted:

 

By applying a two million volt signal to a cable at a specific pulse modulation, and ultra high frequency for an exact duration of time, we transform the entire cable at a molecular level through a phenomenon called Quantum Tunneling. This process is performed on all TESLA Series cables, from Galileo Basik Strings and Au 79 and Magnetic Tricon to Apex, and can be applied to models not Quantum Tunneled for an additional charge. The before and after is startling, with a lower noise floor and improvements in inner detail, air, low frequency extension, and overall transparency and signal speed.

[AlainGr]

Yep, supposed to impart its "improved sound" to everything played through it, which to me is the definition of distortion.

Could it be that certain prices are also a definition of "extortion" ?

[Jud]

Could it be that certain prices are also a definition of "extortion" ?

 

At least we get enjoyable word play out of it.

[mansr]

Could it be that certain prices are also a definition of "extortion" ?

 

It's amazing, the contortions some audiophiles will go through in their quest for the perfect sound.

[gmgraves]

It's amazing, the contortions some audiophiles will go through in their quest for the perfect sound.

 

 

+1! But that's what the hobby is about. I don't know of another hobby that gets away with selling "questionable enhancements" to hobbyists the way this one does. Well, hot rodders were sold "Fire-Injectors" spark plugs at one time, and every now and again super carburetors were sold promising increased fuel milage (which they didn't deliver). I guess that they might qualify.

[gmgraves]

Back to the topic of being closer to a power station, the real physics of attenuation come into play.

 

Why are some power cords $10,000? Free market, if you offer it for sale, people will come Not many though.

 

 

At $10,000 each, there don't have to be many. That's the small business model that really works. Find a niche market, sell an exorbitantly priced "boutique" article and you can get by making tens or hundreds of them per year instead of thousands. And the profit margin! It can be outrageous. I happen to know of a small DAC manufacturer who makes a product in which the most expensive part of the thing is the machined aluminum casework! The stuffed circuit boards cost less than US$100, the DAC chips they use are about US$3.00 each in sample quantities (even less in production quantities, but because of their low production numbers, they don't buy in production quantities)! They sell this DAC for more than US$12,000 each and get rave revues from the audio press on it. Gotta love free enterprise!

[One and a half]

At $10,000 each, there don't have to be many. That's the small business model that really works. Find a niche market, sell an exorbitantly priced "boutique" article and you can get by making tens or hundreds of them per year instead of thousands. And the profit margin! It can be outrageous. I happen to know of a small DAC manufacturer who makes a product in which the most expensive part of the thing is the machined aluminum casework! The stuffed circuit boards cost less than US$100, the DAC chips they use are about US$3.00 each in sample quantities (even less in production quantities, but because of their low production numbers, they don't buy in production quantities)! They sell this DAC for more than US$12,000 each and get rave revues from the audio press on it. Gotta love free enterprise!

 

Indeed, there are even the large manufacturers where volumes count and many $ spent engineering components to the last drop until they fail. It means they can substitute lower rated parts and wring the last breath out them. If they can get someone to make a 13.23 Ohm resistor, to save a parallel combination of another resistor, then they'll do it, in the long run, the effort will be thousands on the bottom line even though it might take 6 months engineer's salary to spend to get there. R&D funding is where the bucket ends up, sometimes taxpayer funded.

[wgscott]

Apparently there is also a significant counterfeit cable problem for the industry.

 

Since you can't measure differences, but only hear them, I imagine it must be the ideal target for counterfeiters.

[mansr]

Apparently there is also a significant counterfeit cable problem for the industry.

 

Since you can't measure differences, but only hear them, I imagine it must be the ideal target for counterfeiters.

 

Like any luxury item. A fake Rolex tells the time just as well as a real one.

[wgscott]

Who better to sell these to than audiophiles who trust only their ears and consider it anathema to do any sort of reality check?

[Jud]

Who better to sell these to than audiophiles who trust only their ears and consider it anathema to do any sort of reality check?

 

What sort of reality checks would one do? What if the counterfeit passed them, whether they be electrical, sonic, or looks; conversely, what if the "real thing" flunked?

 

BTW - am I correct in recalling you have a steel frame bike? If yes, I was curious what the advantages are.