The first mile: What power stations are best for audio?

[sandyk]

Note: I am not saying differences could not have been present, but this anecdote does not provided anything other than more anecdotes and is poor quality evidence.

 

What do you expect ? Another series of 6 positive Blind A/B/A/ sessions performed by Martin Colloms again ?

I have been there, and done that , and have learned to simply accept that some of you are so conceitedly sure of yourselves,that you will NEVER accept any reports that are contrary to your own personal beliefs.

[jabbr]

Well aside from allowing that there may be an audible difference between a very cheap AC cable and a well constructed eg "hospital grade" cable, if you want to be rigorous you want to test "hospital grade" vs "ridiculously expensive", and also with and without good heavy power conditioning.

[eternaloptimist]

What do you expect ? Another series of 6 positive Blind A/B/A/ sessions performed by Martin Colloms again ?

I have been there, and done that , and have learned to simply accept that some of you are so conceitedly sure of yourselves,that you will NEVER accept any reports that are contrary to your own personal beliefs.

 

"Conceitedly sure of myself"?? It is precisely because I am not sure of myself or the human brain and how it treats sound that I question any subjective reports when the mechanism of any tweak and the reported improvement is implausible.

 

You arrogantly dismiss any skepticism and have the gall to call me "conceitedly sure of myself"? Where do you get off with this attitude?

 

What "positive blind A/B/A sessions"? Testing what? In what protocol? First time you have mentioned them. If the testing relates to the Regen, then publish it!

 

To state yet again, I am genuinely interested in blinded data sets especially if they show something that is otherwise implausible. Until then, I will "conceitedly" continue to note but question anecdotes - or do I need your permission?

[sandyk]

Well aside from allowing that there may be an audible difference between a very cheap AC cable and a well constructed eg "hospital grade" cable, if you want to be rigorous you want to test "hospital grade" vs "ridiculously expensive", and also with and without good heavy power conditioning.

 

jabbr

If your reply was directed at me, I would have to say that as a guest present, I had no say in which cables were selected for the comparison tests, and the expensive ones were on loan from a local HiFi dealer.

Most of the time I didn't even know what actual components were in use at the time, until I was asked for my opinion.

This is the way it should be too !

 

Alex

[goldsdad]

What do you expect ? Another series of 6 positive Blind A/B/A/ sessions performed by Martin Colloms again ?

I have been there, and done that , and have learned to simply accept that some of you are so conceitedly sure of yourselves,that you will NEVER accept any reports that are contrary to your own personal beliefs.

 

The specific details of that test have never been revealed. It may have been seriously flawed. Maybe it wasn't flawed. And, anyway, do we need to read about Martin Colloms and his mysterious test in every f***ing thread in this forum!!!

[sandyk]

What "positive blind A/B/A sessions"? Testing what? In what protocol? First time you have mentioned them. If the testing relates to the Regen, then publish it!

I did not say that my previous findings were in relation to testing with John Swenson's Regen,

You were attacking me in general terms, not just in relation to what I have posted about our experiences with a Regen recently. The Blind tests that I was referring to, were on an even more contentious subject. Namely that .wav files ripped by different methods, but having identical checksums, could sound quite different. I supplied the comparison .wav files to Martin Colloms of HiFi Critic magazine several years ago now.

 

Goldsdad

While ever newer members keep attacking me for not going the extra mile to attempt to verify my subjective reports, or do the same to other members, I will unfortunately need to further piss off a few longer term members by their repetition.

You could always put me on your Ignore list.

[trappy]

Well I listened quite Sceptically to some expensive power cables recently, vs. some from the hardware store, but still managed to hear a difference in favour of the more expensive ones, as did the rest of those present. I didn't wish to believe that amplifiers designed by the great Nelson Pass could possibly sound better with more expensive power cables.

You and a few others, give far too little credit to those members who do accept their limitations, and repeat their observations many times over using non sighted listening tests. Many of us do realise that even things such as your Blood Pressure level at the time can markedly influence results , and take this and many other variables into account by repetitive testing, and involving others in the process.

As a DIY person, I have on quite a few occasions made changes that I thought should improve things, but after serious listening over a period of several days, I have no longer been 100% sure and reverted to the original configuration, only to find that I was mistaken about the previous perceived improvement. This is something that most experienced DIYers are well aware of, and try very hard to take into account.

 

Oh, I actually agree with you, just trying to put the case as pithily as possible. I've spent the past month trying to figure out if the AQJB made a difference in my system, and if so, what. There was a lot of back and forth involved, before I decided there was a change and that it was negative for my system, although not necessarily for all systems. I think expectation bias is unavoidable, and not necessarily negative: it gives you a departure point to start thinking around. I expected that if the AQJB was going to make change that it would likely be along a certain line (or not.) it took consciously thinking around the bias to gradually realize that the change that was there, and that many people regarded as positive, was not a positive in my system. Where expectation bias can lead you astray is when there are changes that you miss because you are listening for and drawing conclusions about something else entirely. It's almost a problem of not *enough* expectation bias.

[eternaloptimist]

I did not say that my previous findings were in relation to testing with John Swenson's Regen,

You were attacking me in general terms, not just in relation to what I have posted about our experiences with a Regen recently. The Blind tests that I was referring to, were on an even more contentious subject. Namely that .wav files ripped by different methods, but having identical checksums, could sound quite different. I supplied the comparison .wav files to Martin Colloms of HiFi Critic magazine several years ago now.

 

Goldsdad

While ever newer members keep attacking me for not going the extra mile to attempt to verify my subjective reports, or do the same to other members, I will unfortunately need to further piss off a few longer term members by their repetition.

You could always put me on your Ignore list.

 

You joined in 2009. I joined in 2010. Wow. I defer to the wisdom of the senior member. I read a lot and post little. You have the nerve to play the victim? After calling me and others who dare to question whether things reported could have a psycho-acoustic component "conceitedly sure"? You confuse scepticism of subjective reporting with ad hominem attacks, until you resort to the latter before then playing the victim.

[sandyk]

You joined in 2009. I joined in 2010. Wow. I defer to the wisdom of the senior member. I read a lot and post little. You have the nerve to play the victim? After calling me and others who dare to question whether things reported could have a psycho-acoustic component "conceitedly sure"? You confuse scepticism of subjective reporting with ad hominem attacks, until you resort to the latter before then playing the victim.

 

Then obviously you haven't been absorbing what you have read from the reports by so many members about the VERY high percentage who reported positive improvements when using the Regen, or you wouldn't have posted the attached,where you are agreeing with the statement about the Regens being worthless USB hubs.

Quote Originally Posted by dallasjustice View Post

 

The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Does anyone ever admit they made a mistake? Is it not even remotely possible that your claims about these worthless USB hubs are placebo effect, nothing more?

 

 

Oh finally a voice of sanity!

[goldsdad]

Goldsdad

[...] I will unfortunately need to further piss off a few longer term members [...]

 

So you are actually declaring that you intend to piss people off.

 

You could always put me on your Ignore list.

 

Yes, I realise that is an option.

[jabbr]

jabbr

If your reply was directed at me, I would have to say that as a guest present, I had no say in which cables were selected for the comparison tests, and the expensive ones were on loan from a local HiFi dealer.

Most of the time I didn't even know what actual components were in use at the time, until I was asked for my opinion.

This is the way it should be too !

 

Alex

 

OK but then realize that you have answered the question:

 

"Does a cable costing $10,000 sound better than one costing 1p"?

 

You haven't answered the question:

 

"Does a cable costing $10,000 sound better than one costing $100"?

 

I am saying this because not knowing, one should assume that a really crappy cable was selected as the test dummy. Again, you are choosing to post this information to the group, so I want you to understand that, giving your ears the full benefit of the doubt, i.e. assuming that I hear what you hear, the conclusion is limited as such and not generalizable.

[sandyk]

So you are actually declaring that you intend to piss people off.

Nice try Owen.

No, I am saying that I realise that some longer term members such as yourself will be pissed off by repetitious replies, whether from me or somebody else. The same applies with a few members from the Objective side who piss people off with their repeated put downs of subjective reports about cables etc. Should they STFU too, or only those that you don't agree with ?

[goldsdad]

Nice try Owen.

No, I am saying that I realise that some longer term members such as yourself will be pissed off by repetitious replies, whether from me or somebody else. The same applies with a few members from the Objective side who piss people off with their repeated put downs of subjective reports about cables etc. Should they STFU too, or only those that you don't agree with ?

 

Alex, I don't see anyone except you posting exactly the same unsubstantiated claim in numerous threads every week for years.

[Jud]

Are you serious?? Claims that USB cables / conditioners etc. make any audible difference when blinded are about as far from acceptance in mainstream electrical engineering as you can imagine.

 

I would be very, very interested to see these measurement differences you refer to that are audible. Have you got any links?

 

(Currently pulling out my remaining few head hairs in despair...)

 

Since I wasn't referring either to USB cables or power conditioners, I'm not sure why you bothered to quote me before saying what you wanted to. Please carry on.

[firedog]

"Conceitedly sure of myself"?? It is precisely because I am not sure of myself or the human brain and how it treats sound that I question any subjective reports when the mechanism of any tweak and the reported improvement is implausible.

 

You arrogantly dismiss any skepticism and have the gall to call me "conceitedly sure of myself"? Where do you get off with this attitude?

 

What "positive blind A/B/A sessions"? Testing what? In what protocol? First time you have mentioned them. If the testing relates to the Regen, then publish it!

 

To state yet again, I am genuinely interested in blinded data sets especially if they show something that is otherwise implausible. Until then, I will "conceitedly" continue to note but question anecdotes - or do I need your permission?

 

eternaloptimist, welcome to the forum.

 

Your perspective is welcome. But it really isn't necessary on this forum to respond to published listening impressions with a request for Blind testing or ABX every time you come across them. We've been over that ground hundreds of times and it doesn't add much to the discussion. Objectivists are welcome here, but it isn't a forum with any requirement for blind testing in order to post results of listening sessions. The exception to this would be if someone claims their sighted findings have relevance outside of their own listening.

 

As far as Sandyk's "positive A/B/A sessions" and "Martin Colloms" - he's also referring to something gone over many times on this forum that regular users are familiar with. Do a search if you want to know what he's referring to. Not worth getting into on this thread.

[Daudio]

Since I wasn't referring either to USB cables or power conditioners, I'm not sure why you bothered to quote me before saying what you wanted to. Please carry on.

 

 

Troll enablement ?

[eternaloptimist]

eternaloptimist, welcome to the forum.

 

Your perspective is welcome. But it really isn't necessary on this forum to respond to published listening impressions with a request for Blind testing or ABX every time you come across them. We've been over that ground hundreds of times and it doesn't add much to the discussion. Objectivists are welcome here, but it isn't a forum with any requirement for blind testing in order to post results of listening sessions. The exception to this would be if someone claims their sighted findings have relevance outside of their own listening.

 

As far as Sandyk's "positive A/B/A sessions" and "Martin Colloms" - he's also referring to something gone over many times on this forum that regular users are familiar with. Do a search if you want to know what he's referring to. Not worth getting into on this thread.

 

Thanks firedog.

Be assured, I don't request blinded testing information with every post. However... where the reported improvements seem implausible or, at the least, unlikely based on known electrical engineering (eg. cable claims, USB conditioners, green pens), I would like to know if this is an "the Emperor has no clothes" moment or not. It is the absolute refusal to acknowledge that what is heard may be psycho-acoustic that is so frustrating and then demanding the skeptics prove there is no difference when the onus is on the manufacturer to prove there is one.

 

You note that Objectivists are welcome here. This is not my experience. This forum seems to be dominated by Subjectivists making loud claims and deriding those expressing skepticism or yelling "troll"!

I thought that given this is "Computer audiophile" that engineering measurement and blinded studies would be valued more than it is.

I am out. I will leave you to the Subjectivist paradise - at least in this thread.

[sandyk]

OK but then realize that you have answered the question:

 

"Does a cable costing $10,000 sound better than one costing 1p"?

 

You haven't answered the question:

 

"Does a cable costing $10,000 sound better than one costing $100"?

 

I am saying this because not knowing, one should assume that a really crappy cable was selected as the test dummy. Again, you are choosing to post this information to the group, so I want you to understand that, giving your ears the full benefit of the doubt, i.e. assuming that I hear what you hear, the conclusion is limited as such and not generalizable.

 

According to what members like George and quite a few others will insist, cheap , genuinely rated 15A cables from the local hardware store should sound identical to similarly rated very expensive power cables when used with a competently designed power amplifier from a 15A rated domestic power outlet via a power board. That isn't what we found with the Nelson Pass amplifiers, and I certainly didn't expect to hear any difference, although the others present, including David L. (Audiophile Neuroscience) may have.

Of course, you can't translate this to meaning that using expensive power cables will translate to a better performance with ALL Power Amplifiers, or that $10K of power cables will sound better than a pair of $100 power cables.

[sandyk]

Alex, I don't see anyone except you posting exactly the same unsubstantiated claim in numerous threads every week for years.

 

According to you it is unsubstantiated. Many others will accept the results of the 6 Blind tests, and confirming reports by quite a few other members. As I said, you want me to STFU because you don't agree with the findings, but you don't expect a few others who regularly put down Subjective reports , especially about cables, to do the same. They also regularly post almost identical replies. Actually, in some cases, they ARE identical !

Isn't that a touch hypocritical ?

[wgscott]

Alex, I don't see anyone except you posting exactly the same unsubstantiated claim in numerous threads every week for years.

 

The Göbbels theory of establishing a truth.

[mansr]

The Göbbels theory of establishing a truth.

 

Does that count as an invocation of Godwin's law?

[wgscott]

Reductio ad Hitlerium?

 

Not really, since the comparison is made only with respect to the propaganda techniques being employed (repeating the untruth often enough), not a moral or political equivalency.

[mansr]

Reductio ad Hitlerium?

 

Not really, since the comparison is made only with respect to the propaganda techniques being employed (repeating the untruth often enough), not a moral or political equivalency.

 

Great, that means we can continue flaming.

[goldsdad]

Isn't that a touch hypocritical ?

 

No, it's just that I'm blind to these regularly repeating identical anti-sandyk replies.

[wgscott]

No, it's just that I'm blind to these regularly repeating identical anti-sandyk replies.

 

Also, let's not forget that sometimes these identical claims can sound different, depending upon the font size.