Does the Yggdrasil require a preamp when used for computer based audio?

[MHzTweaker]

BTW, I'm a new member here. I will list some system specs below and in my profile.

I know this is an old thread but I am hoping someone will see and answer this question.

 

I have a dedicated 2 channel listening area that is based around a Z97 i5-4690k PC with Windows 8.1 Pro

I currently play digital audio with Foobar2000 out through my Asus Xonar Essence STX card with Muses02 op-amps

From there the output then goes into a pair of XLR cables and into a Crown XTi-4000 which drives the Electrostatic panels of my Martin Logan Prodigy speakers. Another set of XLRs comes out of the first Crown XTi-4000 and daisy chains into a 2nd XTi-4000 which drives the bass portion of the Martin Logan Prodigys. A third set of XLRs come out of the 2nd Crown XTI-4000 and go into a third XTI-4000 (bridged mono) which drives a subwoofer I built using a JBL 2242H driver.

 

Right now I do not use a preamp. The output of the Xonar STX is used to directly power the amps. I use a Windows Remote and let Windows 8.1 handle the volume control.

 

THE QUESTION: Can I replace the Asus Xonar with a Schiit Yggdrasil and still NOT use a preamp?

 

In effect I would like to go from my PC -> Yggy -> Crown Amps -> Speakers.

 

I know to many this may seem like a simpleton question but I do not have the desire or the funds right now to buy a nice preamp.

 

thanks

 

Allen

[Jud]

Yeah, I believe Mike Moffat (baldr) said Yggy can be used without a preamp.

[Jimmypowder]

Yeah, I believe Mike Moffat (baldr) said Yggy can be used without a preamp.

 

Really just an amplifier not an integrated amplifier ? Isn't that pretty unusual for a dac ?

[Jud]

Really just an amplifier not an integrated amplifier ? Isn't that pretty unusual for a dac ?

 

Sorry, I misspoke. The Yggy has sufficient output to be used with an external attenuator for volume control. Schiit makes a very inexpensive attenuator ($49), the SYS, which I can tell you is excellent (I own one and use it with my desktop system).

[bellhead]

deleted. Moved to the main yggdrasil thread.

[MHzTweaker]

Sorry, I misspoke. The Yggy has sufficient output to be used with an external attenuator for volume control. Schiit makes a very inexpensive attenuator ($49), the SYS, which I can tell you is excellent (I own one and use it with my desktop system).

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I am gauging from your answer that there is no way the Windows PC will handle volume control with the Yggy USB connected as a sound output device?

 

I checked out the SYS control. It looks pretty primitive. I need something that handles XLR balanced connections and does not degrade the signal quality.

 

At this point I have been looking at used preamps. I did not want to purchase one. In fact I am torn with the idea of getting something else such as a Benchmark DAC2 that does volume control.

 

A preamp adds a lot of cost to this for me. I have been considering a used Mark Levinson 380s, Classe CP-700, or ARC LS-25 MKII, LS-17.

 

With the cost of both Preamp and DAC, I am getting closer to a McIntosh C2500 preamp.

 

It looks like I will be waiting for a while.

[firedog]

Thank you for your reply.

 

I am gauging from your answer that there is no way the Windows PC will handle volume control with the Yggy USB connected as a sound output device?

 

I checked out the SYS control. It looks pretty primitive. I need something that handles XLR balanced connections and does not degrade the signal quality.

 

At this point I have been looking at used preamps. I did not want to purchase one. In fact I am torn with the idea of getting something else such as a Benchmark DAC2 that does volume control.

 

A preamp adds a lot of cost to this for me. I have been considering a used Mark Levinson 380s, Classe CP-700, or ARC LS-25 MKII, LS-17.

 

With the cost of both Preamp and DAC, I am getting closer to a McIntosh C2500 preamp.

 

It looks like I will be waiting for a while.

 

Sure you can continue to use Windows to control volume in that setup if that's what you want to do, but it isn't the way many of us would choose to do it.

 

The Yggy has 4V output in balanced mode, so a passive volume control would be just the ticket, unless your poweramp doesn't have much gain.

 

Looks aren't everyting. The SYS is simple, but not primitive as you seemed to think - there's a difference between simple and primitive. It's quite transparent - as good or better sounding than products costing several times it's price and as good as many preamps costing 10-30 times it's price. It doesn't "degrade signal quality" in any scenario in which I've used it.

 

If you want to try a good quality, inexpensive, balanced passive volume control, look at the Emotiva: https://emotiva.com/products/electronics/control-freak - it can be bought in a balanced version.

 

It that doesn't float your boat, look at the Goldpoint passives. Lots of configuration options. More than $50, but much cheaper than buying a good pre.

[Jud]

Sure you can continue to use Windows to control volume in that setup if that's what you want to do, but it isn't the way many of us would choose to do it.

 

The Yggy has 4V output in balanced mode, so a passive volume control would be just the ticket, unless your poweramp doesn't have much gain.

 

Looks aren't everyting. The SYS is simple, but not primitive as you seemed to think - there's a difference between simple and primitive. It's quite transparent - as good or better sounding than products costing several times it's price and as good as many preamps costing 10-30 times it's price. It doesn't "degrade signal quality" in any scenario in which I've used it.

 

If you want to try a good quality, inexpensive, balanced passive volume control, look at the Emotiva: https://emotiva.com/products/electronics/control-freak - it can be bought in a balanced version.

 

It that doesn't float your boat, look at the Goldpoint passives. Lots of configuration options. More than $50, but much cheaper than buying a good pre.

 

I bought the SYS on firedog's recommendation IIRC, and can vouch for his description regarding transparency, about which I am extremely particular. I have it in a system where it is controlling an amp recommended to me by Richard Vandersteen. (Long time ago, the amp is no longer sold.)

 

However, it won't do balanced i/o (not for $50!), so it won't suit your purpose. Since firedog's recommendation to me was so right on, I will suggest you consider the Emotiva or Goldpoint. I've read many audiophiles who've talked about replacing preamps along the lines of those you mention with the Goldpoint who preferred the latter as being more transparent.

 

One other possible solution is to use the XXHighEnd player software, which offers a non-lossy digital volume control. XXHE is not everyone's cup of tea UI-wise, but I find its overall sound quality unparalleled.

[MHzTweaker]

Sure you can continue to use Windows to control volume in that setup if that's what you want to do, but it isn't the way many of us would choose to do it.

 

The Yggy has 4V output in balanced mode, so a passive volume control would be just the ticket, unless your poweramp doesn't have much gain.

 

Looks aren't everyting. The SYS is simple, but not primitive as you seemed to think - there's a difference between simple and primitive. It's quite transparent - as good or better sounding than products costing several times it's price and as good as many preamps costing 10-30 times it's price. It doesn't "degrade signal quality" in any scenario in which I've used it.

 

If you want to try a good quality, inexpensive, balanced passive volume control, look at the Emotiva: https://emotiva.com/products/electronics/control-freak - it can be bought in a balanced version.

 

It that doesn't float your boat, look at the Goldpoint passives. Lots of configuration options. More than $50, but much cheaper than buying a good pre.

 

Nice. NOW I am getting somewhere. Since I have little real world experience with these passive controls I was skeptical of their quality. My problem is I just do not know what is out there to make this work.

 

I looked at the Goldpoint SA2X-O-47 which has a pair of XLR inputs and 2 pair of XLR outputs.

Right now I am Bi-Amping and use the Crown Amps DSPs to make the crossover between bass and electrostat panel. I am wondering if I could achieve better results eliminating the DSP based crossover and bridging the 2 Crown Stereo amps and just Bi-Wiring using the Martin Logan crossover instead. Keep in mind I would likely do this AFTER purchasing the Yggy. I am just trying to eliminate as much potentially coloration and signal processing as possible.

 

One pair of XLR outs would feed each of the Crown amps bridged to mono and the other pair would feed the 3rd Crown Amp powering the JBL sub.

 

At $753, the Goldpoint control is not cheap but certainly cheaper than a $2k-$4k preamp.

 

thanks so much for your help....

 

[4est]

I agree with this. Personally, I am not a fan of passive resistor volume controls. If your system is working fine as is w/o a VC, I see little reason to change that if you purchase a yggy.

Passive att will work very well if it's placed very close to power amp input. You can't drive long cable output from passive att.

Second thing is resistance of passive att must not exceed input impedance of power amp (actually it's good to be half of that) because attenuation characteristic will not be good.

 

If your Amp have around 100k input imp, you can go with passive.

If it have 10k you need preamp.

[firedog]

Nice. NOW I am getting somewhere. Since I have little real world experience with these passive controls I was skeptical of their quality. My problem is I just do not know what is out there to make this work.

 

I looked at the Goldpoint SA2X-O-47 which has a pair of XLR inputs and 2 pair of XLR outputs.

Right now I am Bi-Amping and use the Crown Amps DSPs to make the crossover between bass and electrostat panel. I am wondering if I could achieve better results eliminating the DSP based crossover and bridging the 2 Crown Stereo amps and just Bi-Wiring using the Martin Logan crossover instead. Keep in mind I would likely do this AFTER purchasing the Yggy. I am just trying to eliminate as much potentially coloration and signal processing as possible.

 

One pair of XLR outs would feed each of the Crown amps bridged to mono and the other pair would feed the 3rd Crown Amp powering the JBL sub.

 

At $753, the Goldpoint control is not cheap but certainly cheaper than a $2k-$4k preamp.

 

thanks so much for your help....

 

 

Detailed Information - matching passives.

 

The above page talks about matching passives with amps.

 

You might also try borrowing one from a shop or user in your area before buying.

 

If you are seriously considering it, ask your Crown dealer or Goldpoint (give them amp specs) which/if the passive is a good match. But the SA-2X you mentioned is made with a 10K impedence attenuator, which should be fine with your amps, if I understand their specs correctly.

[4est]

Prudent advice!

Detailed Information - matching passives.

 

The above page talks about matching passives with amps.

 

You might also try borrowing one from a shop or user in your area before buying.

 

If you are seriously considering it, ask your Crown dealer or Goldpoint (give them amp specs) which/if the passive is a good match.

[MHzTweaker]

Passive att will work very well if it's placed very close to power amp input. You can't drive long cable output from passive att.

Second thing is resistance of passive att must not exceed input impedance of power amp (actually it's good to be half of that) because attenuation characteristic will not be good.

 

If your Amp have around 100k input imp, you can go with passive.

If it have 10k you need preamp.

 

The input impedance of the Crown amps is 20K Ohms using balanced inputs

 

I am actually now looking at the Goldpoint SA1X which I believe has a 10k impedance

Goldpoint SA1X Balanced Stereo Level Control XLR | eBay

[MHzTweaker]

That should work, but to be safe better try with with some cheaper pot first (Alps RK27 4 x 10k). if it works with alps pot you can always change it for something better later.

 

Transformer attenuators are even better but they know to be very expensive.

Teramoto Finemet Premium Transformer Volume Control TVC Custom Seiden Switch | eBay

 

 

 

Nice.... I am picking up a lot of information from this thread. Yet another type of volume control I knew nothing about.

 

A quick search also turned up: Transformer Volume Control

 

Django Transformer Volume Control Preamplifier Fully Assembled and Tested | eBay

 

6moons audio reviews: AudioZone PRE-T1

 

6moons audio reviews: Music First Audio Passive Magnetic Preamplifier

 

http://www.mfaudio.co.uk/Menu2/preamplifiers.htm

 

So much to learn!!!! :-)

[miguelito]

Really just an amplifier not an integrated amplifier ? Isn't that pretty unusual for a dac ?

I think the question is whether it has a volume control.

[Jud]

I think the question is whether it has a volume control.

 

It doesn't.

[ericuco]

A few more to consider for pre-amps:

 

Handcrafted high performance audio gear | Tortuga Audio

 

BentAudio.com :: TAP (really great pre-amp, but note on website says he is too busy with some OEM work so not sure of the status of the Tap-X).