Design a PC/Server for ROON and HQ Player

[kravi4ka]

I need a bit of advice as well,I am also planning a build as Miska's and I was asked by my personal comp advisor what type of stress do I expect on the 6700k and I could not answer right away so guys please help with a few words...

 

The computer will be created just for the HQplayer upsampling to DSD512, no games, just causal browsing apart from audio. It will be in the listening room but tucked away so it needs to be silent as possible. I am going for the Fractal Design R5 as case and it can accomodate a Nofan 95C which is totally passive and can really handle 95W even though it gets a bit hot.

 

Now comes the question - if I expect a serious load on the CPU it is better to have a silent coller with a fan, something like the Noctua NH-U9S which is very quiet and can handle a lot of stress as well. But there is nothing quieter than just metal so if the Nofan 95C can take care of it it is much better as it also does not need any service.

[Solstice380]

There are Seasonic fanless power supplies with higher wattage.

[sydlow]

...HQplayer upsampling to DSD512

 

Just curious which DAC you're sending the DSD512 to.

[kravi4ka]

Just curious which DAC you're sending the DSD512 to.

 

 

Will be(hopefully) T+A DAC 8 DSD

[ted_b]

Note: this is a quote from the T+A DAC 8 DSD thread that was getting a bit hijacked, some of which was my doing. I thought it best to continue here.

 

Ted: I can't remember clearly, but I thought you were ultimately going to use this build for HQPlayer upsampling but then through an NAA. Is that correct? If so, I'd love to understand how much you (or Jussi or Eurodriver) feel that noise in the upstream processing PC gets carried downstream past the NAA? I think that Eurodriver has commented earlier in the thread that even with an NAA keeping the processing PC quiet is important.

 

I would think that in general as processing power, RAM memory and modules and GPU power (and cooling requirements) and overall system power go up, so does the noise. Depending on how that enters the data stream it presumably can't be taken out by downstream components, whether an NAA or a fiber optic bridge.

 

Don't mean to sidetrack the T+a dac 8 dsd thread, but it seems that DAC is really benefited by feeding it the best DSD512 upsampled input (probably not that different from your exasound).

 

That is a very good question. Jussi's build is more based on cpu/gpu power and slightly less focused on silence (although he chooses fanless ps, etc), as he points out that with NAA architecture you can put the HQP machine in another room. However, does this slightly lesser focus on silence/noise put at risk the overall sq going to the NAA? Dunno. I mean, I certainly want enough horsepower to do the things I want to do (upsample everything 2 channel to DSD512 for certain dacs; upsample as much as I can to DSD256 or 512 for multichannel for the exaSound e28, NADAC, etc. no convolving, no active crossovers or anything)

 

Additionally I am stuck at one final architecture question: power delivery. I seem to be given three choices:

* internal fanless 520W Seasonic-type ATX power supply (Jussi's choice)

* dc-dc pico psu (16-24W) and a dc umbilical to my external Hynes SR7EHD linear power supply.

* a modular ATX external linear ps with umbilicals and bridges to each component (HDplex is the perfect example but this feedback is not overly impressive; maybe they didn't let the ps break in)

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/building-hdplex-300w-atx-linear-power-supply-unit-28158/

 

So...I am going to go with mostly Jussi's build except maybe case/power and certainly cpu (I'm going i7 6700K out of the gate). But the question of doing silent single pc (Eurodriver's latest recommendation) or NAA and be damned a little fan noise...is still up in the air.

[lmitche]

Hi Ted,

 

The build used at my house for the DSD512 testing used a 400watt fanless low ripple Seasonic PSU. There are no HDDs or SSDs so no need for more power. Hqplayer DSD512 up sampling runs well without a GPU. I see no need for one here. The cooling used is an old low profile Scythe Big Shrunken Rev. 2 heatsink and fan on the i7 6700k processor. I had the Scythe lying around from an old HTPC build. One can't hear the fan at all except when Hqplayer builds the filter. Once done it goes back to idle, even when playing DSD512. The DAC was directly connected to one of the motherboard based USB ports with a Supra USB cable to the T+A Dac. No USB boxes are used at all.

 

We toyed with using water cooling but realized that there are two motors in these setups, a pump motor and radiator fan. I'd rather have no fan, but the Scythe fan doesn't seem to matter.

 

This DSD512 setup yielded the best sound quality I have ever heard in my home. Others seemed to be very impressed.

 

So I recommend that you keep your new build simple at least at the start. You can always add a NAA, fancier PSUs and GPUs later.

 

I am surprised that this simple build sounds so good.

[YashN]

Hqplayer DSD512 up sampling runs well without a GPU. I see no need for one here.

 

Is this up-converting PCM or this also up-converting DSD64+ to DSD512?

[YashN]

That is a very good question. Jussi's build is more based on cpu/gpu power and slightly less focused on silence (although he chooses fanless ps, etc), as he points out that with NAA architecture you can put the HQP machine in another room. However, does this slightly lesser focus on silence/noise put at risk the overall sq going to the NAA?

 

I guess you'll really like me some more for this correction again

 

Bear with me for a while though:

 

Jussi indeed is also focusing on noise reduction with the NAA configuration: The NAA allows you a couple of extra gains over the pure Main Computer -> USB -> DAC configuration, let's see why:

 

In the Main Computer direct to DAC USB connection, the various noise pollution aspects have a direct component (on top of others like air-borne and Power supply-related ones) within the USB connection, subject to all the noise the Main Computer circuit itself generates.

 

In the NAA configuration, that junction between the USB DAC and the NAA device can still done with USB, but the NAA is a much, much simpler device electrically (say a BeagleBone Black) than the main Computer, and therefore it's noise profile for the direct connection is less.

 

Now, what good would this be, if in the end, you're just connecting the Main Computer to the NAA device through USB and suffer the same direct pollution?

 

That wouldn't be much good at all. Which is why we aren't doing that: we are using Ethernet to connect the NAA device to the Main Computer. Thus, you don't get the noise profile of USB. Note that Ethernet itself isn't completely noise-free for our purposes. However, within each Ethernet connector lies a tiny transformer which provides a measure of isolation.

 

Hence, the big, direct noise profile of the Main Computer is segregated from the NAA device and the DAC.

 

Now, with Ethernet, you get the additional, very commendable benefit of being able to fruitfully use a longer run as well without any issue (not so with USB and the usual analogue cables), so that you can also decide to set up your main computer away from the listening room, in a cabinet or what not.

 

Hope that helps.

[lmitche]

Is this up-converting PCM or this also up-converting DSD64+ to DSD512?

Both, DSD64 and up to PCM 384 as I remember. Zorntel just me sent a DSD512 DAC so I will test again and document.

[ted_b]

I guess you'll really like me some more for this correction again

 

Bear with me for a while though:

 

Jussi indeed is also focusing on noise reduction with the NAA configuration: The NAA allows you a couple of extra gains over the pure Main Computer -> USB -> DAC configuration, let's see why:

 

In the Main Computer direct to DAC USB connection, the various noise pollution aspects have a direct component (on top of others like air-borne and Power supply-related ones) within the USB connection, subject to all the noise the Main Computer circuit itself generates.

 

In the NAA configuration, that junction between the USB DAC and the NAA device can still done with USB, but the NAA is a much, much simpler device electrically (say a BeagleBone Black) than the main Computer, and therefore it's noise profile for the direct connection is less.

 

Now, what good would this be, if in the end, you're just connecting the Main Computer to the NAA device through USB and suffer the same direct pollution?

 

That wouldn't be much good at all. Which is why we aren't doing that: we are using Ethernet to connect the NAA device to the Main Computer. Thus, you don't get the noise profile of USB. Note that Ethernet itself isn't completely noise-free for our purposes. However, within each Ethernet connector lies a tiny transformer which provides a measure of isolation.

 

Hence, the big, direct noise profile of the Main Computer is segregated from the NAA device and the DAC.

 

Now, with Ethernet, you get the additional, very commendable benefit of being able to fruitfully use a longer run as well without any issue (not so with USB and the usual analogue cables), so that you can also decide to set up your main computer away from the listening room, in a cabinet or what not.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Thanks, again good stuff, but I've been using an NAA since day one. I get it; the question was generated from Eurodriver's complete opposite findings...i.e. that single pc, done right (OCD levels of right) sounded better to them than the NAA setup. This flies in the face of what I had encountered, but Edward is a voice to listen to, so I threw it out there. Yes, my NAA has a JCAT USB card with correct linear power to it (if needed....I have the two USB ports separately setup with different power/filter profiles) and is on my fiber network, etc.

 

When I said Jussi is not as focused on silence (for the HQP machine, specifically) as others, it is simply because he stated it. He was quick to point out that clean horsepower is no 1, and if a fan bothers you stick the HQP machine in another room; NAA (of course) allows for that. It generated sdolezalik's question above.

[YashN]

Thanks, again good stuff, but I've been using an NAA since day one. I get it; the question was generated from Eurodriver's complete opposite findings...i.e. that single pc, done right (OCD levels of right) sounded better to them than the NAA setup.

 

Right, but had to be precise about Miska supposedly only doing the NAA architecture just for being able to set some physical distance between the computer and the DAC.

 

Yes, it's quite interesting what these guys are doing, so in the very near future, we will be able to have independent SQ comparisons between the two architectures, and perhaps even a combination of both.

 

One is quite expensive though.

 

Perhaps in the longer run, we will be able to have that mythical beast of a Computer, the purpose-built Audiophile Computer. Most probably, if it ever happens, John Swenson is a candidate for pioneering it.

[ted_b]

Yes, we should fly John and Jussi in to RMAF and have a audiophile server camp and dac camp where they host and moderate a DIY build room for an audiophile server and Jussi's DSC1 or 2. Client/server? Ain't got nothin' on where this is going.

[sdolezalek]

I guess you'll really like me some more for this correction again

 

Bear with me for a while though:

 

Jussi indeed is also focusing on noise reduction with the NAA configuration: The NAA allows you a couple of extra gains over the pure Main Computer -> USB -> DAC configuration, let's see why:

 

In the Main Computer direct to DAC USB connection, the various noise pollution aspects have a direct component (on top of others like air-borne and Power supply-related ones) within the USB connection, subject to all the noise the Main Computer circuit itself generates.

 

In the NAA configuration, that junction between the USB DAC and the NAA device can still done with USB, but the NAA is a much, much simpler device electrically (say a BeagleBone Black) than the main Computer, and therefore it's noise profile for the direct connection is less.

 

Now, what good would this be, if in the end, you're just connecting the Main Computer to the NAA device through USB and suffer the same direct pollution?

 

That wouldn't be much good at all. Which is why we aren't doing that: we are using Ethernet to connect the NAA device to the Main Computer. Thus, you don't get the noise profile of USB. Note that Ethernet itself isn't completely noise-free for our purposes. However, within each Ethernet connector lies a tiny transformer which provides a measure of isolation.

 

Hence, the big, direct noise profile of the Main Computer is segregated from the NAA device and the DAC.

 

Now, with Ethernet, you get the additional, very commendable benefit of being able to fruitfully use a longer run as well without any issue (not so with USB and the usual analogue cables), so that you can also decide to set up your main computer away from the listening room, in a cabinet or what not.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Yash: I've tried to take that one step further by putting fiber optic between the PC and the NAA (and I believe can hear a real difference in micro-detail over straight Ethernet). The tradeoff I was asking Ted about in part relates to wanting to do surround upsampling as well as stereo upsampling in HQPlayer. That implies maxing out the CPU, GPU and memory to enable DSD512 across multiple channels, but, in turn means a bigger PSU and more cooling and thus more noise in that PC.

 

Ultimately, this begs the question of where exactly the noise is getting into the data stream in the first place.

[Jud]

Yes, we should fly John and Jussi in to RMAF and have a audiophile server camp and dac camp where they host and moderate a DIY build room for an audiophile server and Jussi's DSC1 or 2. Client/server? Ain't got nothin' on where this is going.

 

Sounds familiar.

 

Speaking of Heathkit - who will be the first DAC manufacturer to borrow an idea (and the vast community goodwill it generates) from Nelson Pass's "Amp Camp" (My Day at Amp Camp | Make: DIY Projects and Ideas for Makers) and have a "DAC Camp" for audiophiles? Hold it in conjunction with RMAF? How popular do you think that might be - not only come listen to the latest equipment, but wind up with your own not too shabby DAC for parts cost and a little time?

[craighartley]

Hi Ted,

 

The build used at my house for the DSD512 testing used a 400watt fanless low ripple Seasonic PSU. There are no HDDs or SSDs so no need for more power. Hqplayer DSD512 up sampling runs well without a GPU. I see no need for one here. The cooling used is an old low profile Scythe Big Shrunken Rev. 2 heatsink and fan on the i7 6700k processor. I had the Scythe lying around from an old HTPC build. One can't hear the fan at all except when Hqplayer builds the filter. Once done it goes back to idle, even when playing DSD512. The DAC was directly connected to one of the motherboard based USB ports with a Supra USB cable to the T+A Dac. No USB boxes are used at all..

 

Sorry if I've missed this but what HQP filter settings etc were you using that could go to DSD 512 without needing GPU?

[lmitche]

Polysinc short mp with adm7. Polysinc works fine as well.

 

This is on a highly modified version of Windows 10. Almost all Windows logging has been turned off.

[EuroDriver]

Sorry if I've missed this but what HQP filter settings etc were you using that could go to DSD 512 without needing GPU?

 

Polysinc -shrt mp and ASDM7 :-)

 

Pipeline and Hyperthreading on in BIOS

[EuroDriver]

I need a bit of advice as well,I am also planning a build as Miska's and I was asked by my personal comp advisor what type of stress do I expect on the 6700k and I could not answer right away so guys please help with a few words...

 

The computer will be created just for the HQplayer upsampling to DSD512, no games, just causal browsing apart from audio. It will be in the listening room but tucked away so it needs to be silent as possible. I am going for the Fractal Design R5 as case and it can accomodate a Nofan 95C which is totally passive and can really handle 95W even though it gets a bit hot.

 

Now comes the question - if I expect a serious load on the CPU it is better to have a silent coller with a fan, something like the Noctua NH-U9S which is very quiet and can handle a lot of stress as well. But there is nothing quieter than just metal so if the Nofan 95C can take care of it it is much better as it also does not need any service.

 

The Nofan performs well, but the core temps are not as stable as they are with a Noctua 12

[craighartley]

Polysinc -shrt mp and ASDM7 :-)

 

Pipeline and Hyperthreading on in BIOS

 

Thanks

[Miska]

Ultimately, this begs the question of where exactly the noise is getting into the data stream in the first place.

 

Noise is injected to the analog signal at the point where D/A conversion is made. Thus the equipment surrounding / directly connected to the DAC is critical. And of course the DAC itself plays major role on keeping the signal clean.

 

When you use NAA, HQPlayer is isolated behind the network. A bit like for example Tidal's CDN (Content Delivery Network) servers. In fact, theoretically HQPlayer could be run as a cloud service, running in a datacenter somewhere at the other side of the globe. Similarly, you can run an optical network link between the two, just like there are across the oceans linking the continents.

[Jud]

Noise is injected to the analog signal at the point where D/A conversion is made. Thus the equipment surrounding / directly connected to the DAC is critical. And of course the DAC itself plays major role on keeping the signal clean.

 

When you use NAA, HQPlayer is isolated behind the network. A bit like for example Tidal's CDN (Content Delivery Network) servers. In fact, theoretically HQPlayer could be run as a cloud service, running in a datacenter somewhere at the other side of the globe. Similarly, you can run an optical network link between the two, just like there are across the oceans linking the continents.

 

There is the power side also, of course.

[Miska]

There is the power side also, of course.

 

Yes, don't put everything on the same wall socket and without proper treatment...

 

In listening room, I have two power cleaners, one for the digital equipment (computers, etc) and one for the analog equipment.

 

DACs are connected to either one depending on whether they run on SMPS or linear PSU. SMPS go to the computer side and linears go to the analog side.

 

Office where the bigger computers are has it's own power cleaners and UPS.

[bibo01]

Right, but had to be precise about Miska supposedly only doing the NAA architecture just for being able to set some physical distance between the computer and the DAC.

 

Yes, it's quite interesting what these guys are doing, so in the very near future, we will be able to have independent SQ comparisons between the two architectures, and perhaps even a combination of both.

 

One is quite expensive though.

 

Perhaps in the longer run, we will be able to have that mythical beast of a Computer, the purpose-built Audiophile Computer. Most probably, if it ever happens, John Swenson is a candidate for pioneering it.

 

There are also practical questions for direct PC connection vs PC+NAA.

 

If one has a very powerful PC, capable of multichannel upconverting to DSD256/512, it is bound to be noisy and it would need a sophisticated optimization to reach top quality (like in EuroDriver's case). Probably one still wants to have a power cleaner for digital equipment like suggested by Miska. However, in this configuration the problem of possible EMI-RFI next to the rest of audio equipment remains.

 

On the other hand, introducing a NAA is not just about an ethernet line between PC and Audio Point. Firstly, HQPlayer powerful PC should be in a different room, perhaps close to router, and possibly on a different electrical line compared to audio equipment. By introducing physical distance and a different electrical line we avoid various forms of pollution compared to the other configuration.

It remains the non minor problem of a NAA capable of DSD256/512. If NAA is Linux based, at the moment not many DAC supports such resolutions. If NAA is Windows based in order to support such resolutions, the device might be more powerful and bulky. We risk to reintroduce from "the window" the problems that we took out of "the door" by placing HQPlayer PC in a different room. Therefore, if we want a Win based NAA in a small form factor (low power and well shielded), we need to carefully choose such device - a Fitlet perhaps come to mind. At the same time, a proper power cleaner has to be considered.

[EuroDriver]

Bibo01

 

+1

 

Great summary !

[YashN]

Both, DSD64 and up to PCM 384 as I remember. Zorntel just me sent a DSD512 DAC so I will test again and document.

 

OK, thanks.