Design a PC/Server for ROON and HQ Player

[lmitche]

33 minutes ago, rando said:

Looks like you found a gaming site and got funneled right into expensive juvenalia.  Honestly that build is a mess.  Glad you asked for constructive thoughts before tearing out your CC. 

 

RAM - RGB pointlessly massive heatsink festooned ridiculously wasteful choice.  In every conceivable manner there exists wildly better options you should pursue.

 

Water cooling - Good till it's not.  Not good unless you are sitting staring into a clear sidepanel at all times.  The leaks/spray may come 5 seconds after first boot or a year on.  Make no mistake they are inevitable even/especially with AIO.  This was step one down a bad path of logic you tried to compensate for later.

 

SSD + NVMe (without heatsink!!!!!) + HDD - You do know M.2 removes SATA ports on the board and NVMe are notoriously hard to cool under load?  Unless you are spending many hours a day in post sorting thousands of new photos... take a sip of coffee in that three seconds you left on the table.  Balancing 10's of TB's will be challenging enough.  Then there is audio considerations.  

 

PSU - Max OC gaming choice full of dirty noisy ugly raw power w/ all the bells and whistles + big reassuring warranty and platinum rating.  🤑  If that site nails one thing it's power needs.  A good suggestion is look what is being used in the best photo or audio servers and choose whichever fits your larger use around 850w.

 

Case - So if you don't have three fans on high noisily sucking air through a radiator or a NVMe drive trying to melt through the mb... Why not get a case that works better for you that also allows reasonably quiet air cooling in an easily tuned positive pressure environment.  In other words there are better options if you are willing to spend half as much.  Especially if you don't insist on the image conscious decision to own the latest and greatest selfsame box instead of one wearing last year's facade.  In the right environment the case you chose is a highly refined foundation.  Workstation/server load use is not it.

 

Fans - Continuing on from CPU cooler/case.  If you do go with an AIO, replace all three fans on the radiator with the best performing yet quiet option you can find.  Otherwise this a highly complex and personal topic subject to case design, hardware installed, and available airways.  Positive pressure is your friend and the enemy of hardware killing dust. 

 

Experiment, don't just buy expensive jewelry hardware and expect it to magically all work perfect together.  It will work light years better than in years past, but not optimally.

Rando,

 

Best you keep mouth shut then post this utterly meaningless drivel. Have you ever heard the expression "if you don't have anything positive to say, don't say anything"?

 

You don't offer a single specific alternative to StreamFidelity for a single one of your points. I could argue with you on almost every point above but with such a negative and useless post, I am not going to bother.

 

Please start thinking before posting. Ask yourself what good can come from this post. Clue: in the example above the answer was nothing.

 

[rando]

@lmitche

Ha, advice given not followed.  I won't argue angry nonsense on the internet. 

 

What I did do is provide insight without succumbing to that modern failure of becoming a brand representative or attaching my image to goods presented as superior.  Anyone who has frequency with polite respectful conversation recognizes this also neatly laid a platform for multiple others to voice their thoughts without contradicting hardly voiced absolutes.  

 

5 hours ago, 4est said:

How does one create positive pressure in a case without adding dust? Seriously. I work in a dusty wood shop, and would love some suggestions.

 

Mount the fans all blowing outwards. 

At least you're a playing joker. 

 

If you want to know you can start a thread.  Or if you value my personal thoughts send a PM.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, rando said:

@lmitche

Ha, advice given not followed.  I won't argue angry nonsense on the internet. 

 

What I did do is provide insight without succumbing to that modern failure of becoming a brand representative or attaching my image to goods presented as superior.  Anyone who has frequency with polite respectful conversation recognizes this also neatly laid a platform for multiple others to voice their thoughts without contradicting hardly voiced absolutes.  

 

 

Mount the fans all blowing outwards. 

At least you're a playing joker. 

 

If you want to know you can start a thread.  Or if you value my personal thoughts send a PM.

Rando,

 

I get it, apparently you don't have the courage of your convictions to share the details of your system here. However out of respect for others that do, you lose the right to ridicule others like StreamFidelity. Keep that in mind in the future please.

 

 

[StreamFidelity]

15 hours ago, lmitche said:

Rando,

 

I get it, apparently you don't have the courage of your convictions to share the details of your system here. However out of respect for others that do, you lose the right to ridicule others like StreamFidelity. Keep that in mind in the future please.

 

 

 

In Germany, we say: What cares the oak, when the wild sow rubs against her? I hope I translated it correctly.😅

I see it all calmly. 

 

@rando What kind of PC and audio system do you operate?

[k6davis]

My server is: 

 

Windows Server 2019 + Audiophile Optimizer

Core i7-9700K

ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX Motherboard

Stock BIOS Settings
Cooler Master Hyper 212 RGB Black Edition

Kingston m.2 120GB SSD (Only $17 !! 😁) 
8GB of RAM

No GPU

 

I'm using 2 channels and no convolution, so, it's a simple use case.

 

I wrote a post about this in the EC Modulators Tips & Tricks thread, but I just realized tonight that my server is cool and very comfortable running the following:

1. Roon + PCM 24-352 => ASDM7EC x DSD256 + poly-sinc-xtr mp/lp  👍
2. Roon + PCM 24-192 => ASDM7EC x DSD256 x 48 + poly-sinc-xtr mp/lp  👍
3. Roon + DSD128 => ASDMEC x DSD256 + poly-sinc-xtr mp/lp  👍

My server is essentially the Intel chip, running with stock settings. Even the 8GB of RAM seems like overkill as it never uses more than 2.5GB, but that's no big deal. No way would I buy 16GB though. The hard drive is a dual boot with Win Server 2019 and Linux Desktop, so the 120GB is more than big enough. Obviously, I don't use this server for anything other than HQP. It's an HQP appliance. No monitor or keyboard. I remote in when I want to change settings, which is infrequently.

 

I only ran Roon on the server with HQP to see if I could. I recommend having separate computers: a lightweight Roon server, a powerful HQP server and a featherweight NAA. All 3 of mine are physically small.

 

Good GPUs are expensive. I'd make sure you need one before you buy one. I'm selling the one I have.

[rando]

I see what the issue is.  Unless @StreamFidelity uses RGB RAM, listed a gaming builders website in his post, etc. it should have been obvious something didn't add up.  Assuredly most here are intelligent enough to gather we were both replying to the same person who did post a link to a gamingcentric website where his build including RGB RAM was compiled.

 

My studiousness in making sure quote boxes remained in place following interruptions to phone internetting will be exemplary from this day forward.  Oak and tusked wild sows indeed.  

 

I purposely don't list equipment and make direct references sparsely.  Long experience with "gear forums" that has born out here as well.  To that end, been completely honest that after pinging Juusi I put together an i5-8400 server that does DSD128 EC quite easily with minimal cooling.  The money saved over an i9 went directly into swelling my music collection.  Good audio equipment is getting cheaper, MCH SACD/DSD are not. 

[ChrisVH]

On 8/18/2019 at 4:47 AM, StreamFidelity said:

 

A very nice system. The CPU Intel Core i9-9900K 3.6 GHz 8-Core I have synonymous and I can recommend. Likewise, I have an ASUS gaming board, which has very good components and a variety of settings. I'm using ASUS RAMCACHE III very successfully, which loads frequently used program files into the fast RAM. Even Corsair and be quiet! I equipment parts can highly recommend .

 

My suggestion would be to streaming Music with a dedicated USB card to DAC. I'm using JCAT USB & NET Card FEMTO.

 

Cutting down Windows 10 with AudiophilOptimzer 3.00 is certainly a good idea.

 

Thank you. I'll check out the RAMCACHE. I use the Sonore UltraRendu, which makes the need for dedicated USB on my PC unnecessary. My PC pushes everything via hard-wired ethernet to the Rendu, and is located on a different floor (inaudible in my music room). I also have the Singxer SU-1 available if I want to run I2S directly to my DAC.

 

Thanks again for your constructive input.

[ChrisVH]

On 8/18/2019 at 7:08 AM, rando said:

Looks like you found a gaming site and got funneled right into expensive juvenalia.  Honestly that build is a mess.  Glad you asked for constructive thoughts before tearing out your CC. 

 

Thank you. I actually researched several highly regarded computer sites related to PC's (gaming, PS workstations, photoshop user forums, etc). Despite many advising to 'build your own', I'll likely have it built for me, after spec'ing what I want. No interest in taking the risk of things going sideways 1/2 way into a build. I'll pay for someone else's time/expertise, and gladly pay the extra premium.  

 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:08 AM, rando said:

 

RAM - RGB pointlessly massive heatsink festooned ridiculously wasteful choice.  In every conceivable manner there exists wildly better options you should pursue.

 

OK- so RGB = bad. Specific option or part # for RAM then? 2 DIMMS vs 4 DIMMs? As I understand it, fast ram = good, but fastest can represent diminishing, non-efficient ROI. 

 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:08 AM, rando said:

 

Water cooling - Good till it's not.  Not good unless you are sitting staring into a clear sidepanel at all times.  The leaks/spray may come 5 seconds after first boot or a year on.  Make no mistake they are inevitable even/especially with AIO.  This was step one down a bad path of logic you tried to compensate for later.

 

Given the numerous references to fast CPU clock speed being very important for the new EC filters, my plan was to overclock, and get best active cooling solution. I wasn't aware that leaks were still an issue with properly installed, modern CPU coolers. I may re-spec this with a conventional fan then...

 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:08 AM, rando said:

 

SSD + NVMe (without heatsink!!!!!) + HDD - You do know M.2 removes SATA ports on the board and NVMe are notoriously hard to cool under load?  Unless you are spending many hours a day in post sorting thousands of new photos... take a sip of coffee in that three seconds you left on the table. Balancing 10's of TB's will be challenging enough.  Then there is audio considerations.

 

This is also a work computer and I want fastest OS performance. My current system is not exactly a slouch (Dell Precision 7910, with dual hexcore Xeon and 128 gb of RAM), yet I still think it's too slow when I multi-task, and especially the time it takes to boot-up with a non M.2 SSD. My Lenovo X1 Carbon with M.2 feels much faster, and boots MUCH quicker, hence my wanting M.2 for the OS drive.   

 

 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:08 AM, rando said:

PSU - Max OC gaming choice full of dirty noisy ugly raw power w/ all the bells and whistles + big reassuring warranty and platinum rating.  🤑  If that site nails one thing it's power needs.  A good suggestion is look what is being used in the best photo or audio servers and choose whichever fits your larger use around 850w.

 

OK. 

 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:08 AM, rando said:

 

Case - So if you don't have three fans on high noisily sucking air through a radiator or a NVMe drive trying to melt through the mb... Why not get a case that works better for you that also allows reasonably quiet air cooling in an easily tuned positive pressure environment.  In other words there are better options if you are willing to spend half as much.  Especially if you don't insist on the image conscious decision to own the latest and greatest selfsame box instead of one wearing last year's facade.  In the right environment the case you chose is a highly refined foundation.  Workstation/server load use is not it.

 

I could care less what this looks like. It's in a completely different room/floor from my audio system, and I don't have buddies over to marvel at how cool my computer looks. Seriously, I've never shown anyone my 'shiny new' tower computer. Your recommended chassis?

 

 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:08 AM, rando said:

 

Fans - Continuing on from CPU cooler/case.  If you do go with an AIO, replace all three fans on the radiator with the best performing yet quiet option you can find.  Otherwise this a highly complex and personal topic subject to case design, hardware installed, and available airways.  Positive pressure is your friend and the enemy of hardware killing dust. 

 

Isn't this what filters are for?

 

 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:08 AM, rando said:

 

Experiment, don't just buy expensive jewelry hardware and expect it to magically all work perfect together.  It will work light years better than in years past, but not optimally.

 

I'd prefer not to 'experiment' with PC Hardware. I don't care to take up another 'hobby' 🙂 This was the purpose of my post: to get useful recommendations for my usage, and not reinvent the audio PC server 'wheel'. The main distinctions I have is: a) this server won't be in audio room, so fan noise is a non-issue b) I have Ultra Rendu NAA, so many of the tweaky PC/OS things related to the USB output should be rendered moot. c) I routinely perform photo editing on VERY large, layered Photoshop files in wide gamut colorspace (ProPhoto RGB), and when STARTING with a 241 MP file (as can be made with the new Sony A7r IV) to begin with, or even a typical 120 MB uncompressed RAW @ ~ 60 mp, layered files can easily get into the > GB range, and when running complex calculations on an image (like star alignment/stacking) we're not just talking casual editing of photos from junior's birthday party... d) I'd like the ability to have have an upgrade path for the vid card as HQP continues to evolve to leverage that processing power, and right now, a 2080ti would be insane overkill for me as a non-gamer, and non-vid editor. e) I need a lot of storage, for music and images, but this can be either connected to the main PC, or I could potentially access via NAS, or through connected storage via the main PC.

 

If you have specific recommendations along with part #'s, I' very much appreciate your specific suggestions.

 

Thank you.

 

[rando]

@ChrisVH

 

Beyond removing the less refined hardware choices in your list.  Requirements for photography editing interfere with "design me a server for Roon/HQP" as a dedicated audio pc. 

 

I really think you'd be best served starting a thread devoted to address balancing the extraneous needs with a high level of SQ.  Somewhere the subject of multiple component turnkey systems and focus on your system as a whole could be fully expounded on.

[k6davis]

30 minutes ago, ChrisVH said:

Given the numerous references to fast CPU clock speed being very important for the new EC filters, my plan was to overclock, and get best active cooling solution. I wasn't aware that leaks were still an issue with properly installed, modern CPU coolers. I may re-spec this with a conventional fan then...

 

If you're getting an Intel i7-9700K or a i9-9900K, you won't need manual overclocking or special cooling. The CPU (with Turbo Boost enabled) is powerful enough to do full EC out of the box. 

[craighartley]

12 minutes ago, k6davis said:

 

If you're getting an Intel i7-9700K or a i9-9900K, you won't need manual overclocking or special cooling. The CPU (with Turbo Boost enabled) is powerful enough to do full EC out of the box. 

Well, until the next new filter or modulator...

[k6davis]

37 minutes ago, craighartley said:

Well, until the next new filter or modulator...

 

I hear you. That certainly could happen, but Jussi said that what's on his roadmap is to make the program function better for users without top of the line server hardware. Time will tell.

[rando]

5 hours ago, ChrisVH said:

If you have specific recommendations along with part #'s, I' very much appreciate your specific suggestions.

 

Didn't see a new thread so I'll link two reputable online sellers of prebuilt computers.  I, and many others here, are happy to help point you in a better direction if you have specific questions.  Based on your reply I think that for the time being the discussion of specific parts should be with the company who will build the server and provide support on it.

 

Falcon Northwest

 

Puget Systems

[ChrisVH]

11 hours ago, rando said:

I see what the issue is.  Unless @StreamFidelity uses RGB RAM, listed a gaming builders website in his post, etc. it should have been obvious something didn't add up.  Assuredly most here are intelligent enough to gather we were both replying to the same person who did post a link to a gamingcentric website where his build including RGB RAM was compiled.

 

I missed this comment... Are you referring to the parts build URL/website I posted? Whether the site is gaming-centric or not is irrelevant to the fact that it's a pretty awesome tool to pick compatible parts and get a ballpark estimate for the parts build. I didn't find any other site out there with a tool like this, and surely not one that was 'audiophile approved'... 🙂

 

Seems like a pretty good repository to reference specific builds for various levels of PC music servers with varying goals. Like, for example: PC server w/ Roon & HQ Player + USB out to DAC vs server build with Roon + HQP feeding an NAA like the UltraRendu.

 

Having readily referenced/discussed builds, with ability to update, to reflect newer parts... could be hosted on a 'Hello Kitty' fan site for all I (and I suspect many others) care. If it's useful... it's good. I bet there are 100's, if not thousands of audiophiles who'd love to have parts lists for specific build-types available like this... and save all the jerking-around from system integrators who have no idea what the specific requirements are for a PC music server.

 

As for multi-tasking on a $2-3k PC... it's not unreasonable to expect it to do something other than process and pass DATA on to the NAA, and I am highly suspicious of any notion that having the computer optimized for anything other than 'PC Audio' is a zero sum game...

 

I'm skeptical that using two $1k - $2k PC's---- one for Roon and one for HQP makes more sense than a single, higher spec'd PC can handle... knowing both would feed an NAA anyway (eliminating all the common OS issues). One of the primary purposes of the MicroRendu is to decouple all the OS and typical "PC" issues from the last step in the chain, before being passed along to the DAC, isn't it?

 

I'll restate: would someone care to post a 'near ultimate' build, using the PCpartpicker.com site (or whatever method/site they want) to show a FULLY compatible parts list for a PC server that will easily handle Roon > HQP to a NAA like the UltraRendu, and can also be useful as an actual computer, with some room for upgrading, down the line?

 

Bet I'm not the only one who'd be interested in this answer :-)

 

Thx.

[StreamFidelity]

8 hours ago, ChrisVH said:

I'm skeptical that using two $1k - $2k PC's---- one for Roon and one for HQP makes more sense than a single, higher spec'd PC can handle... knowing both would feed an NAA anyway (eliminating all the common OS issues). One of the primary purposes of the MicroRendu is to decouple all the OS and typical "PC" issues from the last step in the chain, before being passed along to the DAC, isn't it?

 

I was also skeptical of a 2-PC system. On the other hand, I thought, if manufacturers like Pink Faun had to do that, maybe it would be a bit different.

 

For me, Control PC works with Roon Server, my music files are there on SSD, I rip CDs and create filters for room correction. The CPU utilization is low, the tasks are high. In Audio PC only audio with HQPlayer is upsampled and rendered. The CPU utilization is high but the tasks are low. The transparency and blackness in my sound has been exceptionally good ever since.

[rando]

21 hours ago, ChrisVH said:

I'll pay for someone else's time/expertise, and gladly pay the extra premium.  

 

This continues to be a sticking point after reading this.

 

22 hours ago, ChrisVH said:

This is also a work computer and I want fastest OS performance. My current system is not exactly a slouch (Dell Precision 7910, with dual hexcore Xeon and 128 gb of RAM), yet I still think it's too slow when I multi-task, and especially the time it takes to boot-up with a non M.2 SSD. My Lenovo X1 Carbon with M.2 feels much faster, and boots MUCH quicker, hence my wanting M.2 for the OS drive. 

 

Which is why I listed two commercially viable retailers more than capable of meeting your commercial needs and working towards a parts list they will use to build it for you.  Once that is set we can address improving audio performance for your leisure time. 

[ChrisVH]

6 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

I was also skeptical of a 2-PC system. On the other hand, I thought, if manufacturers like Pink Faun had to do that, maybe it would be a bit different.

 

For me, Control PC works with Roon Server, my music files are there on SSD, I rip CDs and create filters for room correction. The CPU utilization is low, the tasks are high. In Audio PC only audio with HQPlayer is upsampled and rendered. The CPU utilization is high but the tasks are low. The transparency and blackness in my sound has been exceptionally good ever since.

 

Thank you. It's actually 3 PC's then (in my case), when taking into account the NAA (Ultra Rendu). Honestly- I have a hard time rationalizing how Roon core server can create such processing overhead, that it would need to be separated from the same machine processing the HQ player portion of this. With the newest CPU's and graphics cards, and knowing we're just passing DATA to the NAA, unless there is something corrupting that data or not able to process it, I don't see any empirical reason how running both Roon and HQ player on same machine affects the DATA being delivered to the NAA.

 

Not ruling this out, and I could certainly turn my existing machine into JUST a Roon server, but before jumping into that rabbit hole, I'd like some objective reason as to why the "one powerful machine" + NAA is inferior to the "3 box" solution (Roon Server PC > HQ Player PC > NAA)? Are we talking a processing power issue here or data corruption issue, or ???

[ChrisVH]

3 hours ago, rando said:

 

This continues to be a sticking point after reading this.

 

 

Which is why I listed two commercially viable retailers more than capable of meeting your commercial needs and working towards a parts list they will use to build it for you.  Once that is set we can address improving audio performance for your leisure time. 

 

That's 180 degrees from my goal, which is to build a music server which can ALSO process photos, as opposed a photo processing machine that can ALSO act as a music server... I have several system integrators I can work with, who will build with a larger variety of available parts, including chassis.  The two you suggested had already come up as possibilities when I did my research, and neither offer a very wide range of options that are out there... While some of that may be due to them not 'approving of certain components, it's also likely they just need to keep inventory & build options to a minimum, for the sake of being streamlined.

 

I came to this forum thread for specific recommendations to make for my parts list, and I provided a starting point for what I knew would be enough power for my photography workflow, and using components (chassis, MB, etc), that received high ratings from sites w/ core competencies to make these rec's.

 

If I wanted just something for HQ player, I'd pull the trigger on the SonicTransporter with i9 processor and be done with it. But that's NOT what I'm looking for, as it means still needing to get a new machine for photos... This doesn't represent a very good value proposition ($2k for Sonic Transporter + $2-3k for new photo processing machine vs just $2-3k for a machine that does BOTH).

 

Having 'server builds' (perhaps at several price-points and both fanless vs fans for remote setups), with a complete parts list appeared to be something that would be of interest to many PC audiophiles (not just me), and that's what brought me to this thread. I'll move on to somewhere else if the desire isn't there from members of this forum/thread... All good :-)

 

[asdf1000]

Parts ordered... this build is to handle ASDM7EC at DSD256 (all filters) and Roon on same machine.

 

And also chose PSU and case (with Jussi's advice) to add an RTX 2080 Ti,  later in the year.

 

Initially this will run Debian Server (no GUI). But later in the year (when I add GPU) this will also be used for Ubuntu Desktop to do other stuff when not using Roon + HQPe.

 

 

[asdf1000]

Previously was running HQPe and Roon Server on a NUC i7, running Debian Server. Limited to DSD128 with ASDM7EC (and limited to PCM96kHz with that)

 

So this is a big step up for me - will be the most powerful PC I ever owned! Excited.

 

 

[randytsuch]

5 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

Previously was running HQPe and Roon Server on a NUC i7, running Debian Server. Limited to DSD128 with ASDM7EC (and limited to PCM96kHz with that)

 

So this is a big step up for me - will be the most powerful PC I ever owned! Excited.

 

 

Looks like its going to be a nice machine

For my build, I also picked a Noctua cooler but different model and the same samsung ssd.  Rest of my choices were different, there are lots of options out there.

[asdf1000]

11 minutes ago, randytsuch said:

Looks like its going to be a nice machine

For my build, I also picked a Noctua cooler but different model and the same samsung ssd.  Rest of my choices were different, there are lots of options out there.

 

On the Noctua website there are 3 suitable fans for i9-9900K, suitable for overclocking.

 

I picked this one only because it's the lightest of the 3 suitable fans. Slightly cheapest but not much. I won't be doing any overclocking but will be in Turbo Boost Mode a lot.

 

I saw Jussi used a Noctua cooling fan and Seasonic PSU and Fractal Design case and HyperX RAM, so I just copied The Guru 😁 although slightly different models to what he had, but same manufacturers.

 

Lots of good warranty there on all parts.

 

 

 

[shadowlight]

@asdf1000 can you share the total cost and if you ordered everything from a single vendor?

 

 

[shadowlight]

Has anyone explored using Xeon processors in place of i9?  If yes, which motherboard and cpu are you using.

[asdf1000]

44 minutes ago, shadowlight said:

@asdf1000 can you share the total cost and if you ordered everything from a single vendor?

 

 

 

Hi @shadowlight

 

I'm not in the US or EU so I don't think sharing my local price will help anyone in this global community.

 

Plus there is literally only 7 parts there, so very easy to search for prices of 7 parts in one's country - to get a much better idea.

 

I ordered it from a single local shop.  So any warranty issues, I can just get in the car for a short drive to sort it out.