Design a PC/Server for ROON and HQ Player

[LewinskiH01]

3 minutes ago, eternaloptimist said:

One practical issue is that the PC the Core and HQPlayer is running on, is also used by my wife.... which can result in Roon +/- HQPlayer being accidentally closed....

Also, I tend to switch between Roon +/- HQPlayer and Spotify and have so many connection issues switching between the 2. I just want it to work!

 

OK. I misunderstood your initial post. I thought you were moving from a system with NAA to a system without, but I see your practical reasons impose different priorities.

[eternaloptimist]

Just now, LewinskiH01 said:

 

OK. I misunderstood your initial post. I thought you were moving from a system with NAA to a system without, but I see your practical reasons impose different priorities.

Sorry, yes it does have a NAA - the Roon Core and HQPlayer run on the Server PC in the office... the NAA on MacMini (running Win10) in the main room. Its the connection issues between HQPlayer and the NAA that drive me nuts!

Spotify runs on the MacMini also

[lmitche]

31 minutes ago, eternaloptimist said:

Sorry, yes it does have a NAA - the Roon Core and HQPlayer run on the Server PC in the office... the NAA on MacMini (running Win10) in the main room. Its the connection issues between HQPlayer and the NAA that drive me nuts!

Spotify runs on the MacMini also

You could ditch the Mac mini and move the server into the listening room running roon/HQplayer.  There is a lot of that going on around here.

[eternaloptimist]

1 minute ago, lmitche said:

You could ditch the Mac mini and move the server into the listening room running roon/HQplayer.  There is a lot of that going on around here.

That's exactly what I am planning to do.

Streacom FC5 Alpha Case, likely i7-7700T cpu, no additional graphics card, 16G RAM, SSD.

Should be able to handle non-xtr upsampling to DSD512 based on what I have read.....

Would just be so much simpler.....

[lmitche]

6 minutes ago, eternaloptimist said:

That's exactly what I am planning to do.

Streacom FC5 Alpha Case, likely i7-7700T cpu, no additional graphics card, 16G RAM, SSD.

Should be able to handle non-xtr upsampling to DSD512 based on what I have read.....

Would just be so much simpler.....

Hard to say what an i7-7700t is capable of doing without testing. Nevertheless you really don't need to go fanless. Using a high wattage titanium ATX PSU (like a Seasonic 850) with a quiet good fan (Noctua) and fan filter (efidelity) is all you need to build both a physically dead quiet and electrically low noise machine that can take a 95 watt i7-6700 or 7700.

[ted_b]

27 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Hard to say what an i7-7700t is capable of doing without testing. Nevertheless you really don't need to go fanless. Using a high wattage titanium ATX PSU (like a Seasonic 850) with a quiet good fan (Noctua) and fan filter (efidelity) is all you need to build both a physically dead quiet and electrically low noise machine that can take a 95 watt i7-6700 or 7700.

+1 

[vortecjr]

43 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Hard to say what an i7-7700t is capable of doing without testing. Nevertheless you really don't need to go fanless. Using a high wattage titanium ATX PSU (like a Seasonic 850) with a quiet good fan (Noctua) and fan filter (efidelity) is all you need to build both a physically dead quiet and electrically low noise machine that can take a 95 watt i7-6700 or 7700.

I'm not picking on you, but I have some experience building music server and want to offer my two cents.

 

I had a quick look at the Seasonic product page and there is no information on the electrical characteristics of this supply. There are some typical specifications, but nothing that really matters. When we use to make music servers we would call these companies and to get the data that matters. We spent a lot of time on this issue. Most companies do not post the data or give out the data. The sad truth is that they are just complying the ATX specification. It may be a great power supply otherwise, I would not say that it's low noise just yet.

 

A fan based music server usually has two fans. If your going to push this i7 then expect these fans to operate at or close to max speed which means acoustical noise. Also, fans add electrical noise even with filters in line. Been there and done that.

 

If you use an SSD great, but they are still very expensive. A HDD will also add noise. I would get emails from customers that they could hear the HDD 12 feet away even though we had them deep inside a high quality aluminum case with a rubber isolation system. Also, HDDs add electrical noise even with filters in line. Been there and done that.

 

Finally, no clue, but I have a hunch about weather or not a i7 running full bast to up sample everything to DSD512 will be electrically quiet.

 

IMO music servers should be far away from the audio room:)

[sig8]

There are some good cooling options available from:

 

https://www.acinfinity.com/

 

They have some temperature controlled options so fans don't run all the time.

 

I have two of these deployed, one for cooling LPS's, and one row of fans for a fanless HDPlex case. They draw power from their own power supply. 

[sig8]

25 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I'm not picking on you, but I have some experience building music server and want to offer my two cents.

 

I had a quick look at the Seasonic product page and there is no information on the electrical characteristics of this supply. There are some typical specifications, but nothing that really matters. When we use to make music servers we would call these companies and to get the data that matters. We spent a lot of time on this issue. Most companies do not post the data or give out the data. The sad truth is that they are just complying the ATX specification. It may be a great power supply otherwise, I would not say that it's low noise just yet.

 

A fan based music server usually has two fans. If your going to push this i7 then expect these fans to operate at or close to max speed which means acoustical noise. Also, fans add electrical noise even with filters in line. Been there and done that.

 

If you use an SSD great, but they are still very expensive. A HDD will also add noise. I would get emails from customers that they could hear the HDD 12 feet away even though we had them deep inside a high quality aluminum case with a rubber isolation system. Also, HDDs add electrical noise even with filters in line. Been there and done that.

 

Finally, no clue, but I have a hunch about weather or not a i7 running full bast to up sample everything to DSD512 will be electrically quiet.

 

IMO music servers should be far away from the audio room:)

I concur. All my gear is in the basement just below speakers. Just two speaker wires come up through a hole in wood floor.

 

Gear is located on Home Depot storage shelves, with 3/4" sturdy birch plywood shelves. Access and air flow from all four sides.

 

I have under-clocked my i7 6700 to 2.6 GHz. I up sample everything to DSD 512 with -2s filter without issue. It wouldn't do DSD512 at anything lower than 2.6GHz. No fans connected to MoBo, but fans are there if things get hot. My approach to computer audio is minimalist for best results.

[lmitche]

Jesus, will all due respect, things have changed.

 

Take a look at the Jonnyguru review of the Seasonic 850 watt ATX supply. I think you will the find numbers you seek there. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=487

 

Notice the power supply fan doesn't kick in until 50% utilization which at 400+ watts is more then needed for this application.

 

Over here with a 6700k, HQplayer runs at 25% utilization upsampling with polysinc 2s xtr  to dsd512. With a single fan horizontally mounted Noctua cooler the fan doesn't break 600 rpms and is inaudible at this power level so the noise floor is not defined by the CPU fan.

 

Galvanic isolation to the nic, HDD and DAC limit the impact of any electrical noise from the motherboard.

 

The efidelity fan filter made a noticable reduction in electrical noise to an inaudible level.  Put another way, there is no problem finding significant gains in additional noise reduction in other parts of the chain with the fan filter in place.

 

My 7200 rpm wd black drive hdd does indeed have a noticable sound around at 38 DB. From my listening position and in it's enclosure, it's at the level of the air movement when my central air conditioning kicks in.

 

I have WD red drives that are inaudible from my listening position.

 

In either case, when playing a track, the sound level entirely overwhelms the noise from either drive.

 

A high power PC allows a high level of upsampling and any additional electrical noise from the processing is more then compensated for by the sound quality increase from the upsampling itself.

 

My point is merely that there are great relatively inexpensive alternatives to fanless cases, and high wattage linear power supplies that didn't exist in the past.

 

[sig8]

I think you have to find a balance. Initially when I did not have fan option for fanless case, heatsinks were really getting hot with HQP up sampling, but HQP up sampling really makes up for some electrical noise or whatever.

[vortecjr]

5 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Jesus, will all due respect, things have changed.

 

Take a look at the Jonnyguru review of the Seasonic 850 watt ATX supply. I think you will the find numbers you seek there. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=487

 

Notice the power supply fan doesn't kick in until 50% utilization which at 400 watts is more then needed for this application.

 

Over here with a 6700k, HQplayer runs at 25% utilization upsampling polysinc 2s xtr  to dsd512. With a single fan horizontal mount Noctua cooler the fan doesn't break 600 rpms and is inaudible at this power level so the noise floor is not defined by the CPU fan.

 

Galvanic isolation to the nic, HDD and DAC limit the impact of any electrical noise from the motherboard.

 

The efidelity fan filter made a noticable reduction in electrical noise to an inaudible level.  Put another way, there is no problem finding significant gains in additional noise reduction in other parts of the chain with the fan filter in place.

 

My 7200 rpm wd black drive hdd does indeed have a noticable sound around of around 38 DB. From my listening position and it's enclosure, it's at the level of the air movement when my central air conditioning kicks in.

 

I have WD red drives that are inaudible from my listening position.

 

In either case, when playing a track, the sound level entirely overwhelms the noise from either drive.

 

A high power PC allows a high level of upsampling and any additional electrical noise from the processing is more then compensated for by the sound quality increase from the upsampling itself.

 

My point is merely that there are alternatives to expensive fanless cases, and linear power supplies that didn't exist in the past.

 

I had a look at the link and nothing useful in there about the ripple noise of that power supply. I already looked at the fan curve. It's cute trick, but when it gets hot it will turn on. That seems like a light filter and you know people are using the heavy stuff and you have to design it. Filters do not cancel all the noise and they allow some noise though. Isn't it best to have something that starts off as clean as possibleYou preaching to choir about the noise of HDDs...I'm with you. However, I have tons of emails concerning this.  Some people listen to their gear in complete silence where even the AC is off. Clearly they don't live in Fl. You said, "Also, fans add electrical noise even with filters in line. Been there and done that." It's okay if that is how you feel, but do you know this to be the case for sure? Sorry all this stuff is not new to the market pace. It''s the same old stuff. This is the very reason I dumped music server in the audio room. There was simply nothing moving the chain in the right direction for us as computer audiophiles. 

[lmitche]

OK, Jesus, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

My approach is to find the right balance. Without doubt, no fans are better, as are linear power supplies, but one can compensate and diminish the impact without going to extremes in cost or complexity.

 

I have learned to accept that in audio, something will always be better. But on the other hand, I am now listening to the best music reproduction system I have ever heard anywhere, ever analog or digital.

 

So I guess it's good enough. ?

[tboooe]

2 hours ago, eternaloptimist said:

That's exactly what I am planning to do.

Streacom FC5 Alpha Case, likely i7-7700T cpu, no additional graphics card, 16G RAM, SSD.

Should be able to handle non-xtr upsampling to DSD512 based on what I have read.....

Would just be so much simpler.....

I am certain the i7-7700T can handle DSD512 with -2s filters.  I have an old i7-3700s in the same case.  The only issue is converting from DSD64 or 128 to 512.  I get a bit of stuttering.  I am building a new server with an i7-6700 CPU right now.

[eternaloptimist]

17 hours ago, tboooe said:

I am certain the i7-7700T can handle DSD512 with -2s filters.  I have an old i7-3700s in the same case.  The only issue is converting from DSD64 or 128 to 512.  I get a bit of stuttering.  I am building a new server with an i7-6700 CPU right now.

 

Thanks tboooe. 

I must admit, I am struggling to understand the problem....

if I can get the upsampling performance i want in a silent case, why do I need the extra CPU grunt, fans etc?

if the i7-7700T is not up to it, I can swap in a i7-7700 which has 13% more CPU grunt - it still doesn't need a fan.

I think I would just live with upsampking to DSD256 as I struggle to hear a difference, if I am honest...

i was wondering about whether an "audiophile" USB card would be worth it with my T + A DSD DAC. The case can take a full sized PCI-e card. Maybe a later upgrade given the cost...

Alternatively, a Regen or similar....? Voodoo??

 

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, eternaloptimist said:

 

Thanks tboooe. 

I must admit, I am struggling to understand the problem....

if I can get the upsampling performance i want in a silent case, why do I need the extra CPU grunt, fans etc?

if the i7-7700T is not up to it, I can swap in a i7-7700 which has 13% more CPU grunt - it still doesn't need a fan.

I think I would just live with upsampking to DSD256 as I struggle to hear a difference, if I am honest...

i was wondering about whether an "audiophile" USB card would be worth it with my T + A DSD DAC. The case can take a full sized PCI-e card. Maybe a later upgrade given the cost...

Alternatively, a Regen or similar....? Voodoo??

 

There is no problem.  Best of luck with your new build.  I look forward to hearing about the outcome.

[tboooe]

6 hours ago, eternaloptimist said:

 

Thanks tboooe. 

I must admit, I am struggling to understand the problem....

if I can get the upsampling performance i want in a silent case, why do I need the extra CPU grunt, fans etc?

if the i7-7700T is not up to it, I can swap in a i7-7700 which has 13% more CPU grunt - it still doesn't need a fan.

I think I would just live with upsampking to DSD256 as I struggle to hear a difference, if I am honest...

i was wondering about whether an "audiophile" USB card would be worth it with my T + A DSD DAC. The case can take a full sized PCI-e card. Maybe a later upgrade given the cost...

Alternatively, a Regen or similar....? Voodoo??

 

Excellent question.  Some people can tell the difference between the -2s filters and the non -2s filters which require more horsepower for sure. There are other filters in HQP that are pretty CPU intensive as well.  Also some people do multi channel with convolution.  If you are happy with DSD256 then you should definitely just go fanless with that cpu.  I also do 2 channel convolution and my i7-3700s has no problem converting to DSD256.

 

Another good question about the USB card. From my limited experience, cleaning up the USB from the PC helps a lot.  My only experience is using a IsoRegen.  I am very happy with it.

[volpone]

Hi all,

1) Any experiences using HQPlayer with new Intel Coffee Lake I-8700 CPU - Z370MB (6cores, 12 threads) ? Any feedback from @miska ?
2) Any comparison VS AMD Ryzen R1700 (8 Cores, 16 Threads) , I8700 and R1700 are both 65 W TDP ?

Thank's 

[Miska]

57 minutes ago, volpone said:

Hi all,

1) Any experiences using HQPlayer with new Intel Coffee Lake I-8700 CPU - Z370MB (6cores, 12 threads) ? Any feedback from @miska ?
2) Any comparison VS AMD Ryzen R1700 (8 Cores, 16 Threads) , I8700 and R1700 are both 65 W TDP ?

Thank's 

 

I'm waiting to get my hands on 16-core variants of i9 and ThreadRipper.

[volpone]

38 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

1 hour ago, volpone said:

Hi all,

1) Any experiences using HQPlayer with new Intel Coffee Lake I-8700 CPU - Z370MB (6cores, 12 threads) ? Any feedback from @miska ?
2) Any comparison VS AMD Ryzen R1700 (8 Cores, 16 Threads) , I8700 and R1700 are both 65 W TDP ?

Thank's 

 

I'm waiting to get my hands on 16-core variants of i9 and ThreadRipper.

 

 

OK ...
So at the moment no feedback on coffee lake I8 CPU and HQP compatibility ?

[Miska]

Just now, volpone said:

So at the moment no feedback on coffee lake I8 CPU and HQP compatibility ?

 

I'm not expecting any issues...

[volpone]

5 minutes ago, Miska said:

I'm not expecting any issues...

 

Perfect ... Thank's

[eternaloptimist]

On 9/17/2017 at 9:30 PM, lmitche said:

There is no problem.  Best of luck with your new build.  I look forward to hearing about the outcome.

Well the server has arrived and is set up!

i7-7700T,  16G RAM, 500G SSD, JCAT USB card. Streacom FC5 alpha case. Silent.  Files located on NAS (Synology 1517+).

I had the PC built by Lifefx in Sydney and added the JCAT card via a PCIE riser - took 5 minutes.

Very low power consumption.

Can upsample to DSD 512, with -2 filters in HQPlayer. Loads quickly, no glitches. CPU sits at approx. 35% when playing.

Very, very happy!

BTW... I can confirm that the T+A DAC doesn't need USB power as advised by Marcin. Was just plug and play.

(Cable management coming on the weekend....!)

 

[lmitche]

2 minutes ago, eternaloptimist said:

Well the server has arrived and is set up!

i7-7700T,  16G RAM, 500G SSD, JCAT USB card. Streacom FC5 alpha case. Silent.  Files located on NAS (Synology 1517+).

I had the PC built by Lifefx in Sydney and added the JCAT card via a PCIE riser - took 5 minutes.

Very low power consumption.

Can upsample to DSD 512, with -2 filters in HQPlayer. Loads quickly, no glitches. CPU sits at approx. 35% when playing.

Very, very happy!

 

Looks like a nice clean build.  How does it sound?

[eternaloptimist]

Just now, lmitche said:

Looks like a nice clean build.  How does it sound.

Sounds fantastic. Very "clean". Well resolved imaging. Just a pleasure to listen to.