Jump to content
IGNORED

The Ear - DSD under Fire


Nikhil

Recommended Posts

Why bother with PCM? DSD marketing propaganda vs. PCM fact-based scientific reasoning is why.

 

And it's this "PCM fact-based scientific reasoning" that tells people to choose PCM DACs with non-linear distortions at redbook CD levels, and boatloads of correlated aliasing artifacts. Or use resource-limited on-chip decimation and oversampling filters. SMH...

Link to comment
It can easily be shown that increasing the number of conversions in, and complexity of the modulator can actually help to improve rather than deteriorate accuracy...

 

Incidentally, Pressed to the Edge: Why vinyl hype is destroying the record may be helpful to you, an excerpt :

Then there are the cutting machines. The most popular and well known of these were developed in Germany by Neumann and were produced until the early 1980s. To operate these machines a so-called stylus is needed, which carves the groove into the lacquer to store the music on the disc. “Today, these styluses are produced by one company worldwide,” says Lubich, “by Apollo in the USA, where the lacquers are also made.” One person, Maria, was responsible for the entire production of the styluses and she had mastered the process, according to Lubich. “Maria knew exactly which adhesives were the right ones, and that you couldn’t use the large vats because the consistency of the adhesive would change. Then she retired, and for a long time the styluses were qualitatively just not as good.”

 

Her successor had to acquire the highly specialized knowledge step-by-step. The engineers who cut vinyl worldwide had to suffer the consequences. “A low quality stylus has direct repercussions on the sound of a record,” says Lubich. The suppliers are also causing a bottleneck, because vinyl granules – the raw material for the production of records – are only produced by five companies...

 

P1070740-616x440.jpg

 

«

an accurate picture

Sono pessimista con l'intelligenza,

 

ma ottimista per la volontà.

severe loudspeaker alignment »

 

 

 

Link to comment
You would need to ask Miska about the details of his DSC1 DAC, but from what I remember, he definitely described its operation as bit-perfect NOS conversion of DSD sources up to 512fs.

 

The DCS1 is NOT a DSM. It has an FIR filter with equal coefficients (sometimes called a box filter) where the summations are done in the analog domain followed by several active filters to attenuate what ultrasonic noise is left from the FIR.

 

The single bit PDM coming into the DCS1 is the result of some DSM upstream, it is not done in the DCS1 itself.

 

The 33 levels are not the result of a 33 level quantizer in a DSM, but are the result of the analog summation of the FIR.

 

 

John S.

Link to comment

Thanks, John. Yes, unsurprisingly the DSC1 is made to work with a high quality DSD source, either a DSD recording or the product of software like HQPlayer.

 

(Gentle typo correction, DSC1.)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment
That's fine by me, if you want to introduce as many conversion steps between formats and use as many upsampling and oversampling filters as possible. But I'll still take a direct output from the modulator as the closest representation of the actual modulator. And for DSD playback, a multi-bit SDM DAC such as DSC1, for instance, is still considered 999.9 Pure when handling DSD.

 

55e98e84c46188c82f8b45a8.jpg

If the actual modulator is 'true' 1-bit rather than multi-bit, you'll get an exact representation of it in the form of DSD output. With one 'minor' caveat. You'll lose two boatloads of SNR exactly because this modulator is 'true' 1-bit rather than multi-bit. If the actual modulator is multi-bit, but has nevertheless been specifically designed to be capable of giving you an exact representation of itself in the form of DSD output, you'll get an exact representation of it in the form of DSD output. With one 'minor' caveat. You'll introduce more processing steps exactly because it has been specifically designed to be capable of giving you an exact representation of itself in the form of DSD output. This is because, in order for it to be capable of giving you an 1-bit bitstream as opposed to it being only capable of giving you a multi-bit datastream, the multi-bit modulator must, by definition, introduce a form of re-quantization somewhere. How else do you think it can be made possible for a multi-bit modulator to output a 1-bit bitstream? Something called a free lunch? A pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Or maybe it's just a one eyed one horned flying purple people eater........

If you had the memory of a goldfish, maybe it would work.
Link to comment
How do you define a bit-perfect DAC? Since the output is not bits, what is it perfect in relation to?

 

:)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment
Or maybe the Grimm AD1?

 

AD1 | GrimmAudio

 

Have you ever seen/heard it used with the ST optical output box?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment
And it's this "PCM fact-based scientific reasoning" that tells people to choose PCM DACs with non-linear distortions at redbook CD levels, and boatloads of correlated aliasing artifacts. Or use resource-limited on-chip decimation and oversampling filters. SMH...

Please define 'PCM DACs with non-linear distortions at redbook CD levels'. As for 'correlated aliasing artifacts'... the goal of using an anti-alias filter is to effectively prevent audible aliasing artifacts from actually happening, and, finally, 'resource-limited on-chip decimation and oversampling filters' will not necessarily always introduce artifacts that can become audible.

If you had the memory of a goldfish, maybe it would work.
Link to comment
Grimm Audio official website has a white paper that states they think 24/192 PCM sounds better than DSD. :cough:

 

In your dreams :)

 

If you take the effort to read point 2, you'll see that the comparison was between a 192KHz PCM file, and that same file then converted to DSD. Well duh....

 

I record acoustic music in all three DSD bit rates (now almost exclusively in 256fs) using a Pyramix system. For those recordings recorded with the Grimm AD1 at 64fs as the A/D converter, it's possible with Pyramix to mount the DSD file in a DXD project, and monitor the playout in DXD with desired level changes. Then once the track(s) level changes have been determined monitoring in DXD, the original DSD file can be re-modulated with the desired changes producing a new DSD file, without going through DXD conversion.

 

The point of this is after DSD rendering the new changed DSD file, it's simple to then have a DXD Project alternating with a DSD Project with only a second of switching time to compare the two. They're level matched DXD and DSD playouts of the same file, and it's easy to hear the differences between the two. There's a loss of spaciousness and aliveness of instrument detail, the very low level information that's affected by the DSD > DXD conversion.

 

if you haven't worked and experienced this yourself, I guess all you can do is postulate theories of how stuff should work.

Link to comment
In your dreams :)

 

If you take the effort to read point 2, you'll see that the comparison was between a 192KHz PCM file, and that same file then converted to DSD. Well duh....

 

I'd say that was a very restrained response on your part. All you have to do is look at the opening paragraph of the white paper to see that what you responded to was a blatant mischaracterization of what the white paper actually says. (Further along, tailspn's employer Channel Classics comes in for some significant praise for the way they produce their DSD recordings.)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment
Please define 'PCM DACs with non-linear distortions at redbook CD levels'. As for 'correlated aliasing artifacts'... the goal of using an anti-alias filter is to effectively prevent audible aliasing artifacts from actually happening, and, finally, 'resource-limited on-chip decimation and oversampling filters' will not necessarily always introduce artifacts that can become audible.

 

LOL. Resource-limited inferior decimation and oversampling filters that aren't audible. Great logic / myth spreading.

 

And as for non-linear distortions at redbook CD levels, it's a known issue of many PCM DACs, which often have troubles in this department, See new Schiit Yggdrasil PCM DAC with THD+N at 13bit level for example.

 

To say nothing about the so-called 24bit resolution that has never been achieved by PCM. At least the latest PCM DACs like Yggdrasil and Gungnir don't even attempt to make this marketing claim, and decimate 24bit PCM to 20- and 18-bit PCM.

Link to comment
This is because, in order for it to be capable of giving you an 1-bit bitstream as opposed to it being only capable of giving you a multi-bit datastream, the multi-bit modulator must, by definition, introduce a form of re-quantization somewhere. How else do you think it can be made possible for a multi-bit modulator to output a 1-bit bitstream? Something called a free lunch? A pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Or maybe it's just a one eyed one horned flying purple people eater........

 

Again, check DSC1's detailed design descriptions to learn about its operation. But keep in mind that a 2-level / 256fs signal converted to analog with 33-levels and same sampling rate is 999.9 pure DSD playback.

Link to comment
I'd say that was a very restrained response on your part. All you have to do is look at the opening paragraph of the white paper to see that what you responded to was a blatant mischaracterization of what the white paper actually says.

OT

Agree. That's why I added user spdif-usb to my ignore list some years ago, and I am sad to say - nothing has changed since then.

Only one user is in that list, btw.

Sorry, english is not my native language.

Fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.

Link to comment

if you haven't worked and experienced this yourself, I guess all you can do is postulate theories of how stuff should work.

 

A good description of a few of posters here who have turned their personal preferences into some kind of religion/ideology.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
OK, so he admits that 1-bit conversion isn't a problem, after all his Grimm AD1 and Mola Mola DAC operate internally at 1-bit, but still opines that using DSD from the production perspective is nonsensical. I disagree with the latter part of his opinion, for DSD is perfectly suitable for the following production workflows:

 

- acoustic recordings with on-site analog mixing & native DSD editing

- direct transfers from analog tapes

- all projects that use analog mixing consoles

 

In all the above cases DSD eliminates multiple layers of SDM<->PCM + SRC conversions from the AD/DA loop.

 

DSD suitable for playback stuff created as from analog as from synthesized sources.

 

What difference for end-user "native" editing DSD or not?

 

Appartus should provide parameters. How it achieve is problem of developers only.

 

If consider "native" DSD editing as summ operation only, it is not enough for music production.

 

Even right cutting part of track is problem.

AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files

ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac,  safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,

Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & Windows
Offline conversion save energy and nature

Link to comment
DSD suitable for playback stuff created as from analog as from synthesized sources.

 

What difference for end-user "native" editing DSD or not?

 

 

In native DSD editing mode, DSD isn't downsampled and decimated which lets the end user to play the DSD file in NOS mode on a DSD DAC.

Link to comment
LOL. Resource-limited inferior decimation and oversampling filters that aren't audible. Great logic / myth spreading.

 

And as for non-linear distortions at redbook CD levels, it's a known issue of many PCM DACs, which often have troubles in this department, See new Schiit Yggdrasil PCM DAC with THD+N at 13bit level for example.

 

To say nothing about the so-called 24bit resolution that has never been achieved by PCM. At least the latest PCM DACs like Yggdrasil and Gungnir don't even attempt to make this marketing claim, and decimate 24bit PCM to 20- and 18-bit PCM.

 

For the sake of clarity:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/new-crop-sub-%242k-dacs-ayre-and-simaudio-25497/#post456976

Link to comment

 

Yep, Schiit clarified there beyond any doubt that the PCM DACs in fact decimate 24bit PCM to 20- and 18-bit PCM. But then again, most people by now recognize that PCM DACs never really achieved the 24bit resolution, whether they perform the decimation to 18/20bit PCM or not.

Link to comment
Yep, Schiit clarified there beyond any doubt that the PCM DACs in fact decimate 24bit PCM to 20- and 18-bit PCM. But then again, most people by now recognize that PCM DACs never really achieved the 24bit resolution, whether they perform the decimation to 18/20bit PCM or not.

 

And guess what, the Yggy and Gumby sound sensational. I have spent many hours with the Yggy and have upgraded my Gungnir to Gumby status. I couldn't be happier.

Link to comment
In native DSD editing mode, DSD isn't downsampled and decimated which lets the end user to play the DSD file in NOS mode on a DSD DAC.

 

Right downsampling is not problem. Otherwise we are great limited in possibilities.

AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files

ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac,  safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,

Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & Windows
Offline conversion save energy and nature

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...