ECdesigns

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

35 minutes ago, Ben75 said:

Beyond the conveniency of Streaming Services (Qobuz etc.), John told me that Streaming was not as great as local files, ripped from a CD and should be abandoned for serious listenning sessions (because of DSPs, online masters tweaked etc.)... Perhaps there is an answer there to the question : "What is the best streaming services platform"? If you have a fine tuned High-end hifi setup, perhaps this is not ideal to use streaming services playback at all.

 

Getting a little off-topic here, but... 

 

I don't stream from Qobuz, but have purchased a lot of CDs from their online shop. Yes, on occasion, you can get bad files (which they don't make themselves, by the way). Whenever I have expressed my dissatisfaction with a purchase, they always offered me another download of my choice... 

 

But this is really not specific to Qobuz or streaming. Nowadays, there are so many re-issue, re-masterings, compilations, from sometimes dubious labels, that you have to be careful what you select. There is no difference with CD or vinyl in that respect. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

42 minutes ago, Ben75 said:

So, in conclusion, a simple but reliable LPSU would do the job on par with the Kaces PSU

 

I would love to agree, but the proof is in the pudding, and we'll see if I get a chance to try out other models. 

[bodiebill]

On 8/11/2020 at 11:57 PM, hopkins said:

P. S. @bodiebill In a client/server configuration (LMS, Roon, UPNP...) where the server and client are on two different PCs I would be curious to know if different server configurations give different results when using wifi. My assumption is that it should not. 

 

Today I got wifi to work with GentooPlayer (mpd+upmpdcli). I switched back and forth a few times between LAN (WLAN deactivated in NUC BIOS) and wifi (LAN deactivated) to listen to tracks sent from Upplay (using minimserver) from the server. I definitely prefer ethernet above wifi in my setup. With wifi high solo violin sounds too strident.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

23 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

Today I got wifi to work with GentooPlayer (mpd+upmpdcli). I switched back and forth a few times between LAN (WLAN deactivated in NUC BIOS) and wifi (LAN deactivated) to listen to tracks sent from Upplay (using minimserver) from the server. I definitely prefer ethernet above wifi in my setup. With wifi high solo violin sounds too strident.

 

Ok thanks for that. Too bad we can't definitively conclude on this. Knowing that wifi worked best would have made things simpler. Still like it better in my setup, but I know my wired network is probably quite noisy! 

 

Also, maybe wifi disrupts that NUC model in some way? Another hypothesis to consider. There are too many variables... 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Getting a little off-topic here, but... 

 

I don't stream from Qobuz, but have purchased a lot of CDs from their online shop. Yes, on occasion, you can get bad files (which they don't make themselves, by the way). Whenever I have expressed my dissatisfaction with a purchase, they always offered me another download of my choice... 

 

But this is really not specific to Qobuz or streaming. Nowadays, there are so many re-issue, re-masterings, compilations, from sometimes dubious labels, that you have to be careful what you select. There is no difference with CD or vinyl in that respect. 

 

Open parenthesis... 

 

I forgot to mention the issue of watermarking, but that, I hope is only an issue when you purchase and not when you stream. 

 

Close parenthesis... 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

And one small detail. I put an aliminum plate on top of the DAC held with a 1kg door stop, like @tapatrick. Get zero noise now with my little AM radio, so no RF going out or in from the top. Not sure it makes a difference, its more a case of being "better safe than sorry". An aluminum top would have been nice, but maybe it has no benefit. 

[Huubster]

6 hours ago, Ben75 said:

Just a message from John who can be trusted to have tested almost all of the main PS solution out there so far for his own RPI4.

 

"I use:

 

Macbook air 1.8GHz Dual Core i5 mid2012

Macbook Pro Retina 2.4 GHz Quad Core i7, early 2013.

 

Apple makes relatively quiet (interference) laptops because of high efficiency (optimise battery life). This greatly reduces interference power levels compared to other brands.

The macbooks are battery powered (clean power supply) and the battery charger outputs the lowest noise of all chargers we tested.

 

RPI4 is quite powerful and with a clean power supply it is comparable with a macbook running on battery power supply. PCs usually produce way more interference (mains power, no need to conserve power) so perhaps a PC or server (even running on Linux) is just not not optimal for audio.

So it is simply a matter of using a relatively clean bit-perfect source.

 

For RPI4 you need a -linear- 5V / 2.5A power supply like this one for example:

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hifi-power-supply/linear-power-supply-5v-25a-13w-usb-lt1084-p-10532.html

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hifi-power-supply/audiophonics-lpsu15-linear-regulated-power-supply-5v-25a-15va-with-usb-p-10255.html

 

Quality doesn't matter that much as long as it is linear and it can provide 5V / 2.5A. You need 2.5A for the RPI4, 2A is not enough. Wiring with low DC resistance is also very important at 2.5A peak current,  use thick wiring + suitable adapter plug."

 

So, in conclusion, a simple but reliable LPSU would do the job on par with the Kaces PSU. So yes : the EC Designs combo has never been so cheap and performant in terms of SQ (if John is right). I can't wait to get the confirmation of that with Hopkins another day - and hope he will get the chance to send back his Kaces P8 in time ... for refunding ! 😉

 

Beyond the conveniency of Streaming Services (Qobuz etc.), John told me that Streaming was not as great as local files, ripped from a CD and should be abandoned for serious listenning sessions (because of DSPs, online masters tweaked etc.)... Perhaps there is an answer there to the question : "What is the best streaming services platform"? If you have a fine tuned High-end hifi setup, perhaps this is not ideal to use streaming services playback at all.

 

Anyway, the few albums I downloaded from Qobuz were always worse than extracting the masters myself from XCDs. 🙂

 

I respect John's work enormeously, he's a genius, but regarding his statement about 'a basis LPS suffices' I totally disagree. Trying and have a listen for yourself is all you need to do to confirm this. 

 

I just made some changes in my fuse box for my (not dedicated) audiogroup and inserted an audiograde differential switch and circuitbreaker.  Same thing, you need to hear it to believe what power supply does.

[matthias]

7 hours ago, Ben75 said:

Beyond the conveniency of Streaming Services (Qobuz etc.), John told me that Streaming was not as great as local files, ripped from a CD and should be abandoned for serious listenning sessions (because of DSPs, online masters tweaked etc.)... Perhaps there is an answer there to the question : "What is the best streaming services platform"? If you have a fine tuned High-end hifi setup, perhaps this is not ideal to use streaming services playback at all.

 

With all due respect to John from ECD there are people who see that differently.

Emile Bok from Taiko Audio found this quality ranking from best to worst with his Extreme server:

1.) Playback of stored files inside the Extreme

2.) Streaming from Qobuz and Tidal

3.) Playback of stored files in a NAS

 

Matt

[tapatrick]

10 hours ago, bodiebill said:

 

Actually for me this was a relief, especially as I suspected some (certainly not all!) of the perceived results of PC tweaking to be wishful thinking. Of course I wanted to hear the benefits of Apacer ECC wide temperature RAM, but did I ever really?

Of course one aspect of getting your hands on an EC setup is of experiencing a great relief. On the other hand - and this may not apply to you -  if you have been endlessly tweaking and seeking for years  you may find the itch coming back. Then it’s time to just settle back into the music. 
 

I can understand if someone has not taken the plunge then the searching goes on...and on.  

[tapatrick]

10 hours ago, hopkins said:

In that line of thinking,  @austinpop who has "come out of the closet" to reveal his distaste of spaghetti is now a good candidate for trying the U192 + Fractal DAC and getting rid of a few more boxes 😁

 

All said in good spirit and respect for everyone's efforts and contributions! 

 

 

 

I have followed that thread for a long time and picked up many good tips and purchased based on (some) recommendations. The spaghetti though never appealed to me both aesthetically, practically and financially - but it is fun to follow.  £20-30k music servers is completely off limits although I would have dreamed of it at one point.  No longer. I would love someone to pick up on the EC combo, and put a cat among the pigeons of expensive sources 😊 (!) however having a big US audience does currently restrict access to EU only sales.  

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

48 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

With all due respect to John from ECD there are people who see that differently.

Emile Bok from Taiko Audio found this quality ranking from best to worst with his Extreme server:

1.) Playback of stored files inside the Extreme

2.) Streaming from Qobuz and Tidal

3.) Playback of stored files in a NAS

 

Matt

 

Personally, the only question of interest is whether there are any optimal configurations with the ECD units  

 

[matthias]

9 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Personally, the only question of interest is whether there are any optimal configurations with the ECD units  

 

 

The only question of interest for me is how good sounds music from streaming services with the ECD units 🙂

 

Matt

[Huubster]

9 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

The only question of interest for me is how good sounds music from streaming services with the ECD units 🙂

 

Matt

 

I didn't do much comparisons lately, but here it's pretty darn close to playing WAV from my Innuos. I could perfectly live with streaming only

 

 

[Huubster]

2 hours ago, Huubster said:

 

I didn't do much comparisons lately, but here it's pretty darn close to playing WAV from my Innuos. I could perfectly live with streaming only

 

 

 

Tonight I did some actual comparisons between WAV from my Innuos vs Spotify via the same Innuos.

 

Interesting results in a sense that I can't actually hear any difference between the two, as long as it's a 16bit WAV. If I'm comparing high res WAV to Spotify than I can hear a difference with the more realistic and better one being high res. 

[Rexp]

6 hours ago, tapatrick said:

Of course one aspect of getting your hands on an EC setup is of experiencing a great relief. On the other hand - and this may not apply to you -  if you have been endlessly tweaking and seeking for years  you may find the itch coming back. Then it’s time to just settle back into the music. 
 

I can understand if someone has not taken the plunge then the searching goes on...and on.  

Would you say all your current tweaks are essential? 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

14 hours ago, Huubster said:

 

I respect John's work enormeously, he's a genius, but regarding his statement about 'a basis LPS suffices' I totally disagree. Trying and have a listen for yourself is all you need to do to confirm this. 

 

I completely agree with you. Low noise is key, and the U192+Fractal has the ability to really benefit from it.  There is no reason why you could not improve results going from a basic but well designed linear power supply to a "top-notch" supply (in much the same way as you get benefits from removing a noisy SMPS).

 

I think John is looking at it from a "design" standpoint, and he has most probably  not listened to everything (Keces, Paul Hynes, etc...) or examined all the models available as was suggested earlier. He probably sees design flaws in some PS that are expensive and advertised as "audiophile", and I am sure that some of those power supplies are indeed bogus and "too expensive" for the results they provide, so it is good to get some suggestions from him for affordable models, but it does not mean that all "audiophile" PS have to be discarded.

 

To be continued... 

[Huubster]

6 hours ago, Rexp said:

Would you say all your current tweaks are essential? 

 

I would definitely say so Rexp. After getting the ECDesign DAC I did a few tweaks and those still have a profound effect.

 

The major difference for me, with the Fractal DAC in my chain, is that whatever I do, it keeps sounding very satisfying. There is a naturalness to the sound no other DAC I ever heard can do. I recently used my laptop as a source, that's the moment when I could clearly hear the effect of my 'tweaks'. I think that with my simple laptop it still sounds better then my former setup without the Fractal DAC (Schiit Yggdrasil A2), but in my optimal setup with the Innuos as a source it brings a 'greatness' which is hard to imagine.

 

All the tweaks I do bring my setup to a level of satisfaction and happiness I never thought was possible, costs aside. That is a virtue of John's invention not to be underestimated. So don't worry about the Fractal DAC bringing an end to your 'tweaking' hobby, it will only get better with more enjoyment

[matthias]

12 hours ago, Huubster said:

I didn't do much comparisons lately, but here it's pretty darn close to playing WAV from my Innuos. I could perfectly live with streaming only

 

Thanks,

may I ask you which power supply you use with your Zen Mini?

 

Matt

[Huubster]

46 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Thanks,

may I ask you which power supply you use with your Zen Mini?

 

Matt

 

I use the original LPS from Innuos. I bought my Zen Mini 2nd hand and bought it including this LPS. The ultimate goal was to go to a very nice LPS like hopkins bought recently, a Keces P8. But currently I'm perfectly happy with the Innuos LPS after I did my first tweak. I have a few more tweaks I want to do to make it even more simple and straight forward than it is by itself. The first tweak was quite a step up by the way. 

 

My first tweak was a simple thing. I de-coupled the internal ground connection. My audio group doesnt have grounding and therefore I disconnected the internal ground cable in the LPS to it's own casing. This made the sound far more 'cleaner' and gave the sound more body.

 

Next steps might be:

- remove connectors and directly solder cables on prints

- remove the on/off buttion in the LPS circuit (useless since the Innuos has an on/off button in itself)

- remove the 110v / 220v switch print (I live in Europe and 220 is all I need)

- Maybe hardwiring the DC cable to the Zen and skipping all the connectors

 

But i'm going to do it step by step and it needs to be reversible, I need some help with this from a friend who's capable of doing these tweaks. 

[bodiebill]

deleted: answer crossed question 🙂

[matthias]

53 minutes ago, Huubster said:

Next steps might be:

- remove connectors and directly solder cables on prints

- remove the on/off buttion in the LPS circuit (useless since the Innuos has an on/off button in itself)

- remove the 110v / 220v switch print (I live in Europe and 220 is all I need)

- Maybe hardwiring the DC cable to the Zen and skipping all the connectors

 

Thanks for sharing,

I did similar mods with my gear.

The improvements you get with mods of mains distribution and power supplies are much more profound than with other mods 🙂 🙂 🙂 

 

Matt

 

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

FWIW, I finally found a nice aluminum case for the pi4 which seems effective at cooling. Just send the vendor a mail to check that it works ok with wifi:

 

https://wickedaluminum.com/products/raspberry-pi-4-secure-case-with-heat-dissipation

 

 

[tapatrick]

10 hours ago, Rexp said:

Would you say all your current tweaks are essential? 

In relation to having the EC combo in place - I will have to review everything to see what is necessary or not. Suffice to say that if I had the EC products earlier I would not have been interested is so much experimentation.

 

However I'm convinced clean power and having the whole system on one Isolation transformer for common grounding is essential. I will also try without the Ether Regen at some point as 98% of my listening is via Tidal

[tapatrick]

3 hours ago, Huubster said:

The major difference for me, with the Fractal DAC in my chain, is that whatever I do, it keeps sounding very satisfying. There is a naturalness to the sound no other DAC I ever heard can do.

Exactly how I feel about it. I think there is an important distinction here between "whatever I do it keeps sounding very satisfying" versus "tweaking and seeking because there is a fundamental even if subtle, dissatisfaction". Once the EC combo is n place it's akin to arriving on a higher plateau of listening pleasure and ease.

 

Several posters are now experimenting from this place and it is interesting to read about. Personally I am less inclined as I'm not sure at present what else can be added.

 

[Huubster]

6 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I think there is an important distinction here between "whatever I do it keeps sounding very satisfying" versus "tweaking and seeking because there is a fundamental even if subtle, dissatisfaction". Once the EC combo is n place it's akin to arriving on a higher plateau of listening pleasure and ease.

 

Spot on, perfect addition tapatrick, that's exactly it.

 

There is no dissatisfaction at all, it feels like I can live with this sound forever, you just know there is room for more awesomeness..